I honestly don't really think Dr Grillz or mclare have the last word on this.

Huh? What's the purpose of your first sentence? Trying to start up trouble again are we?

 

Go read the thread first.

Then impute whatever motives you desire.

 

This is something that can be discussed back and forth forever!

yada yada yada... we all know that AMG back then supplied parts a la carte, and later on supplied parts to Mercedes themselves to install.

The whole "True" AMG is up to an individual to decide.

There are many cars out there built to spec... Talbir and Jay come to mind where they built a widebody using genuine AMG parts. If you were to put a car that AMG built themselves or at an official AMG tuning shop next to one of their cars.. you would not spot a difference.

You have those that feel that documentation is what makes the car. Thats also another valid point, but an AMG car missing AMG parts and replaced parts for stock that still has all the AMG documentation is "less" of an AMG to me.

AMG motor is not a sign of an AMG tuned car either. There are cars out there that were tuned and even registered to AMG themselves and did not have any AMG modifications to the motor. However, there are those that think that an AMG is supposed to have an AMG motor and without it... its not an AMG.

Either way you look at it... there will yay and nay-sayers regarding whether a car is an AMG.

p.s. Whats with comment about me not having a final word? Since when am I an authority?

 

I honestly don't really think Dr Grillz or mclare have the last word on this.

Interesting informed discussion with pic's are in here. No need to get worked up over this though.

(Pretty intriguing discussion though.) No definitive answer though.

Really?

The subject has been flogged since the merger.

What makes an AMG and AMG? Not a badge.

 

nice add

What makes an AMG and AMG? Not a badge.

Neat documentation you supplied there 48hp - in response to a response:

... "you couldn't put a AMG emblem on a car unless it had three AMG items", thats pure rubbish and your not the first to propagage it either, its urban legend.

Perhaps a point also flogged here ad nauseum, but really fascinating, was how the catalog states specifically (emphasis mine) "Available only with the purchase of TWO or more OUTSIDE AMG pieces."

Sooo...the badge itself might have constituted that 3rd AMG part of the legend. But what does reference to "outside" mean ?? Looking at just that catalog page, one interpretation is that buying a steering wheel & set of floor-mats - won't get you the badge. Nor is that simply price-point marketing, given how much the seats cost... but then again, those are Recaros... not AMG.

To get the badge, from them at least, required purchasing 2 items that were car performance enhancing/altering- i.e., "outside" ???

 

In my humble opinion / view / experience, i would say a true AMG car is one that had it's AMG conversion done by a licensed AMG dealer. Even if it has lost one or two parts along it's lifetime, it is still an official/true AMG, as one can always add those bits back when found again.

In the case of Hammer's, the car being discussed in the thread of reference, i think it's very clear cut. A Hammer is only one which has it's originality, documentation, whole 9 yards !

With w126's it's not so clear cut, as there are ten times more w126 AMGs than Hammers. That said, out of my stable, only two would qualify as genuine AMG cars. The Hammer 560E and the w126 AMG 500 SEL. Both cars were done by Stratton's of the UK.

I would never ever label my Widebody SEC or my narrow body AMG 560SEC as true AMGs. I built them to their formfrom scratch, the cars were bone stock beforehand.

My Widebody has every conceivable AMG goodie :

- 3.27 Gleason Torsen diff
- AMG DOHC M117 5.0 litre, 340bhp
- Full 9 piece AMG Widebody kit
- AMG Widebody 9+10 Pentas
- Recaro Classic Cs
- AMG 190mph original speedo
- AMG steering wheel
- AMG full adjustable suspension kit fitted with AMG springs (rare item !)
- AMG exhaust front to back
- AMG door wood
- Period AMG badge

So, full AMG bodykit, full AMG drivetrain (the DOHC motor and trans came from a stratton car !) full AMG interior and the party trick, the AMG adjustable ride height suspension setup....how many widebodies have this original AMG offering !

But i still wouldn't call it genuine AMG as it wasn't put together by a licensed dealer.

I wouldn't swap it for an official AMG Widebody either as Dr Grillz said, it's no different to a genuine apart from paperwork. Since i'm not in this for financial gain, paperwork means nothing to me. This is a hobby and about having the cars to the spec i desire.

The Hammer was the only purchase where i wanted originality...and got it. That's because the Hammer is so unqiue, so rare, so special. For me, it's a 500E and a Widebody rolled into one ! Like having the wife and mistress together at the same time. Wow !


talbir

 

In my humble opinion / view / experience, i would say a true AMG car is one that had it's AMG conversion done by a licensed AMG dealer. Even if it has lost one or two parts along it's lifetime, it is still an official/true AMG, as one can always add those bits back when found again.

As a past owner of some very cool and rare AMGs, if AMG didn't build it, then it wasn't an AMG to me either.

 

the AMG adjustable ride height suspension setup....

ironically there were two of these complete NOS systems listed early last year on good ol' eBay.de. unfortunately my bidding ran out of steam...

 

i would say a true AMG car is one that had it's AMG conversion done by a licensed AMG dealer

In Period!
As above ,no disccusion needed.. As much as many would like to say adding a ///AMG badge makes a car AMG unless your car was moddified in period (And yes that means if barry taylor put together an AMG 126 today with all his parts it woud still just be a 126 with AMG parts) its not an AMG car its just wishfull thinking

 

Any given person's opinion on what constitute's a 'real' AMG seems to have a lot to do with what they personally own. That could be called naked bias, or it could just reflect what they personally believe. You might as well be arguing religion or politics. And since I love arguing religion and politics, I'll chime in here.

I think that nearly everyone is in agreement on the following:

If bondavi, mclare, and I had identical cars, selling for identical money, but with AMG parts installed at different places by different people (bondavi's car=Affalterbach, mine=BTE, and mclare's=himself) which would you choose? I think everyone would rather have bondavi's. If his wasn't available, I think everyone would rather have mine (this is certainly no knock against your handiwork Mike). If only mclare's was available, I think that nearly everybody would be thrilled to have Mike's car. Again, this is assuming identical cars.

BUT when other AMG parts are thrown into the mix, or the milage of different cars varies widely, then these things have to be taken into consideration. mclare's car is probably already more desireable than mine due to the number of modifications, although some dogmatic few wouldn't think so. Then there are the people who would deny my car AMG status because there are no engine modifications, and I can understand that viewpoint.

Really, this is A LOT like discussing religion. Have YOU been saved, brother? Salvation is but a parts catalog, and a large check, away...

 

whoops, sorry, forgot another.
7.) a vehicle belonging to some idiot that thinks he can slap an AMG badge on a pinto and claim it's an AMG...

 

Or even a Mercedes.

 

stinkin badges

That was my point in highlighting only 2 items (of a certain ilk) had to be purchased, in order to get an AMG badge. Kind of a sub-theme in this thread... how a car may technically qualify to wear an AMG badge - but in the eyes of some, that fails to achieve "true" AMG status.

After all, those parts could be ordered/shipped via a catalog. Yet what assurance was there they'd get/got installed on the car wearing the badge? Hence 'trueness' tests based on the tuner, or 'period' in which the mods were made. Kinda like reinheitsgebot, 'cept the beer's not pure unless the barley's 500 years old

How about a different perspective on cars, badges, etc ?

Say... here's your Mercedes.
Now here's your Mercedes in Haiti.
Mmmmm... badge tastes yummy :thumbsup:

 

Jim - Since you called me out by name in the very first sentence, I will respond.

I thought we were behind this since our nice lunch of two weeks ago, but I guess not.

Let me preface this by saying that I hope the following will not damage the progress we have made thus far.

Jim - You call your car an AMG. You have it in your sigline on the sidebar, and in person. You yourself know what AMG themselves consider to be classed as an AMG. Three parts groups. And to wear the badge, two of those must be external to the car. This is not something I made up. This is straight out of the AMG catalog YOU bought for me from BTE off eBay. It was a very generous gift, and I still treasure it and it remains in the envelope you sent it in. I have only removed it to scan it once, so that other members may share in the gift and knowledge.

On page 42, right hand column, third paragraph down, it states:

"A fine die-cast metal AMG logo for the decklid is available only with the purchase of two or more AMG exterior modification items. The emblem can be selected in original chrome, matte-black, or a paint to match your AMG's finish."

See attached scan of the said page.

I don't have the AMG badge on my car as you have seen (Again you saw it and remarked on it two weeks ago) and I don't know if I ever will. I like the clean back look and besides, my car has most of the AMG bits on it. Graftdesigns was very gracious enough to sell me his AMG bodykit along with his front Euro bumper and he is shipping them this week. It will take about two weeks to get painted and mounted. After then, pretty much all of the external parts that AMG made will be on the car.

I also have installed a full AMG suspension with SLS and I have most of the AMG exhaust system. I just need the can. I have a set of period correct AMG tips I got from Justin that I sent to Eli to have refurbished, and if his work on my OZ wheels are any indicator, they will look brand new as well. I would like to mount them on a 'real' AMG can and I am in the hunt for that. I may just buy a newer AMG can and cut those tips off and mount mine to it.

I have scoured the Earth for 'Real' AMG parts to mount on my car. I will not mount fakes! That will NEVER make my car a 'Real' AMG and will never call it such. Conversely, I would never mount a badge to my car and call it an AMG if my car didn't at least live up to what AMG would have required back in the day. To me, that is being a Poseur and I am not about that.

My position is this. If I mount the badge to try to impress others, who am I fooling? The people that know, (Bondavi, Roy, Henric, Dr. G, Talbir, Jay, and others) will know that I am a fake and I will not have their respect. They will know I am just a liar and a Poseur and a fake. The people that don't know, why would I want their respect? They are not my peers? The respect I want are from the top members here and elsewhere. The guys that have gone through this, or paid the big buck to get 'real'. AMG is like a club, you have to pay your dues. You can pay them in one of two ways: Stroke a check and step up to the plate, or scour the Earth and DIY. I chose the latter. Either way takes hard work. You have to work hard in your chosen profession to be able to stroke the check, or you have to work hard to DIY. Either way, it does not come easy or cheap. I can't just beg BT for ten years until he gives up and sells me a badge for $150.00, slap it on my trunk, say I have an AMG, and have people believe and respect me. Can I?

Can I just buy a badge and maybe afterward get one or two incomplete systems and call it AMG?

One thing I noticed is that members that did not have an AMG or anything close, usually said they were okay with people calling their car AMG, or whatever. People with AMG's or replica's or WIP or whatever, people going through it, were more of a hardliner about it. Maybe because they know the money and work involved?

I think it was Henric that said "It has to 'feel' like an AMG to be called AMG". I agree. I wish you had more time two weeks ago to drive my car now with the AMG suspension. It drives like a TOTALLY different car now. The next GTG I want you to drive it so you can feel it for yourself.

Again, not trying to pick a fight here, but you brought this up, and called me out, so it must be a sore subject. One in which a point is trying to be made. No?

 

AMG of yesterday, is like the brabus of today.

 

What we all forget sometimes is that 25-30 years ago AMG was just at tuner like all the rest. They and a few other wise firms (Brabus, Gemballa, Lorinser, Koenig) set sights on Japan when the other tuners went bust in the late 80s, causing Mercedes-Benz to see the potential and decide to invest. Sometimes it is almost scary how crazy people get fighting over some old AMG part, when the same people don't look twice once something equivalent, and just as good by Brabus or Lorinser turns up.

A lot of the 100+ tuning and coachbuilding firms that existed in Germany in the mid 80s bought parts from each other at the request of the customer, and AMG bits could/can be found in a vast selection of different tuning cars.

Yes today AMG is the most famous of the companies, but back then Koenigs were faster, Gemballas were wider and Carat by Duchatelets sported superior interiors. And most importantly in the large context, the thorough quality of AMG was NOT better than the quality of any other tuning car.

Having seen what many "licensed AMG distributors" looked like in the 80s compared to what people imagine, I would feel just as safe letting my trusted garage down the street build me a car out of old parts.

Sure, just because the car is not built by a german in Affalterbach in 1985 its not an AMG, but to me it is more important enjoying the finished car the way I like it, and hey... stick an AMG-badge on the back of a lowered 126 with a set of fancy wheels and 99% of the population will actually think it was just built by a german in Affalterbach in 1985...

 

Sure, just because the car is not built by a german in Affalterbach in 1985 its not an AMG, but to me it is more important enjoying the finished car the way I like it, and hey... stick an AMG-badge on the back of a lowered 126 with a set of fancy wheels and 99% of the population will actually think it was just built by a german in Affalterbach in 1985...

My point exactly!

99% of the population doesn't even know what Affalterbach is or means. The (less than) 1% that does, will know the difference and those are the ones that matter.

 

Is it the 1% that matters or the 1 that owns and drives the car? There is the appreciation of the car as a driver, and there is the appreciation of the car as a period collectors item. If you appreciate both, then having an Affalterbach car is great, but the only reason for wanting the world to know, via a badge, is to either brag or to connect with other like minded drivers. Having a 'poser' car doesn't matter if the badge is there to make a statement (of appreciation of high performance vehicles) to the 1%, and the car has the dynamic abilities to back up the claim made by the badge, even though the car may not be a 'real' AMG car.

 

The only % that really matters when you're buying it is you.
The only % that really matters when you're owning and enjoying it is you.
The only % that really matters when you're selling it is the buyer.

 

Oh for god's sake... give it a rest.

 

Bit over it are ya mate? LOL

 

Ok my feelings are this on the AMG issue. As you all know I could give a rats ass about AMG. So here goes, I would consider a car an AMG if an offical AMG dealer did the conversion, anything else no matter how many AMG parts are installed are Clones.

Just like with American musicle cars. If you take a chevelle and install a 396 engine, SS hood and interior it is considered a Clone SS, and real one is denoted by matching numbers and dealer/manafacturing paperwork.

So anyone who has done a complete AMG conversion will not have chassie and engine matching numbers, and no offical AMG tuning shop papers so it is a Clone nothing more.

 

and in the end, with all the cable tv outages across the state, cascade was able to watch a little reality entertainment anyways. lol

 

Please, not another one of these

 

AMG was a business - the more cars they could put out with their look and logo, the better for them. I could quote Hans Werner whats-his-name saying exaclty this but I can't be bothered to find my book where he talks about it.

So it's each to their own - do you want a car that looks like an AMG, cool if you do, or do you want the AMG performance*, or the rarity of a genuine Alfterbach (apologies speling) AMG. If you want (or have) the former, then don't brag about the latter.

* for me it doesn't matter if you put it together yourself, or Strattons did it or Afterbach did it, but if there's documentation that it came from Strattons, or better still AMG Afterbach, then that is rarity and as with any collector item gives value to it.

 

IMHO,

I have a 1972 Porsche 911 which is a replica of a Carrera RS, with a genuine factory Carrera Ducktail. It has a worked 2.8L and goes better than the factory 2.7L. Soon it will have the matching black Carrera graphics. I like cars in general, even my company Hyundai 1.8 DOHC which is good to throw around when I feel like it. It is a manual 5 speed.

My 911 goes better than a factory 72-73 Carrera RS and most people these days prefer the look of the 7"x8" wheels. The factory had skinnys. However, my 911 will never have the provenance of the genuine infamous 911 Carrera RS.

I have tried this out as a joke on occasion to find out how much the person I am talking to actually knows about cars.

For example:

Me: "This is a 72 Carrera RS lightweight"
Person(eyes widen slightly, weight shifts from one leg to another): "Oh really. Wow"

Then I'll tell them and the pressures off both of us!

So, IMHO, the mention of a w126 AMG is a car that should get a car enthusiasts heart pumping, blood racing, eyes widening and weight shifting from one leg to another,

because, if ya are in the know, you will know that you dont see a genuine w126 AMG everyday, do you?

And friends, the answer to your question on trueness is actually a question, which is 'why is that'?

AMG represents what? A replica represents what?

 

To me there is absolutely no meaning in referring to a pre merger car as an AMG.

Of course one thats had all the options ticked is worth more than one with just a set of wheels.

Having seen some of the official conversions in the flesh, I can truly say that I know my bodyshop would have done a better job than they did back in the 80's..
Some of the work i have seen has been poor and has not stood the test of time.

All of the dealers in those days were small outfits.. no bigger than a standard size warehouse unit.. their quality of work was variable to say the least.

So to me this topic is completely invalid.

Each car has to be assessed on its own merits.

 

Having seen some of the official conversions in the flesh, I can truly say that I know my bodyshop would have done a better job than they did back in the 80's..
Some of the work i have seen has been poor and has not stood the test of time.

+1...
AMG did not have items that were the best of quality at all times. Things I've seen:

-Pressure bent, awfully welded, frail exhaust systems.
-Bodykit parts painted while on the bumper so that the underside is not painted
-crooked AMG logo steering wheels
- Items are not applied very cleverly (ie: gen1 euro bumper spoiler attached with more than 15 screws, its tiny!)

Its not very hard to build your own AMG and do a better job in doing so.

 

I need to locate the thread in the 107 that had the different videos of people revving their cars, accelerating and burnouts.
When POS posted his 500SL AMG it was like, "holy CRAP!" Just a complete world of difference. The way it sat. The way it looked. The way it sounded. The way it accelerated. And I'm sure the way it handles.
I want one. BADLY.
If you are familiar with the car, just the look doesn't do it. I stumbled across the Lorinser body kit for my 107, and it looks damn near as nice as the AMG. But that's where the comparison ends. I can purr to a car show and look nice. The AMG ROARS. Documentation adds value, but if you put in the time and/or money and did the mods, to a true AMG enthusiast it's not going to take much away from it. Does that make any sense?

 

No offense guys, but in 1980's Germany, AMG was the preferred mode of transportation for pimps.

 

Pimpin' aint easy, but somebody's gotta do it

 

Final Arbiter

"No longer do Badges
On trunk-lids declare
To which class you belong,
Since they’re no longer rare.

This Fix-it-Up Chappie’s
Wiped your bank accounts clean;
You can’t teach a Sneetch -
Thus spake AMG."

with apologies to Dr. Seuss​