Mercedes-Benz Forum banner

New W140 S600 Coupe Owner - Glutton for Punishment

17K views 42 replies 16 participants last post by  Stryker-1999 S600  
#1 ·
Hey All,

Just picked up a 94 S600 coupe for relatively cheap. It's a little rough, and perhaps I should have looked for one in better shape, but the price was right so I went for it. It's black on black with 90k.

I have searched around on here and I know how frustrating it is when newbs ask questions that the regulars think are obvious, but if you could point me in the right direction or give me a link to some helpful threads that would be great.

Issues:
-Fan blows strong, but air is not cold.
-Orthopedic seats will inflate, but deflate quickly after and won't inflate again.
-Rear windows won't even attempt to move down. Haven't checked fuses yet, but are there relays or junctions I should check also?
-Power antenna doesn't work, is it interchangeable with the sedan or different?
-Driver window doesn't seem to index properly and leaves a small gap which makes for some annoying wind noise. How to reset indexing?
-Idle is a little rough, going to try unplugging MAFs tomorrow to see if that helps it at idle. Are these hotwire type MAFs? Any other common issues?
-ADS is stuck in sport mode I believe, ride is a little rough but not as bad as some. Hydraulic fluid is also low. *IF* I replace the accumulators, will that fix the sport mode issue and get rid of the light on the dash?

So that's a hell of a list, but that's the majority of the issues. Any help is appreciated. Here are a few obligatory pics, the wheels are going ASAP and the car is going to be detailed and the hood repainted soon. Excuse the dirtiness.

Image


Image


Image


Image


Image
 
#2 ·
Ok, here goes.

AC- probably the evaporater...$2500-3000

Lumbar...there is a leak somewhere in the system...start car and see if you can hear a hissing coming from the seat

Windows- check fuses. If not that then disconnect the battery and allow to reset, have the radio code close by or you will be without tunes until you get it

Idle could be MAF or wiring harness

If the accumulators are shot the hydraulic fluid will be low. I'm not sure that will affect the IDS though
 
#3 ·
On my 1995 coupe the antenna does not go up, because it is only supposed to go up when the phone was used. Now that I have a blue-tooth phone hook up, I don't think my antenna EVER goes up.

But on my 1999, the antenna goes up whenever I turn on the headunit.

Your car actually looks ok, at least in the photos. A few cosmetic things, and the mechanical items you list are all fixable.

Good luck and welcome to the club!
 
#4 · (Edited)
Nimrod already mentioned the wiring harness, but to add some more information... are you aware of the general wiring harness issues of all Mercedes cars from the early to mid 90's? All cars through model year 1995 had wiring harnesses that tend to degrade prematurely. 1996 and on seems OK. The problem is most apparent in the engine compartment where heat cycles are most extreme. Basically, the insulation becomes brittle on all the wires, cracks, and falls off. Obviously a big problem. Check your engine compartment wiring, now, before suspecting any other parts.

For the ADS... When the system has a fault, it automatically defaults into firm mode. Is your ADS warning lamp lit? Is the bulb burned out or removed? Changing the accumulators will not fix a fault or any other reason that the system is stuck in firm mode. There are no electrical inputs/sensors related to the accumulators. If there is no fault indicated, maybe its a bad switch? Not sure. If there is a fault, I'd suggest hooking up to a STAR diagnostics machine to retreive fault codes.

Congrats on the car, and good luck with it. I have to say, I don't dislike the black centered wheels with polished lips. The silver hub cover needs to be black, but the look isn't that bad, given the dark tint as well. Can't tell what wheels they are, but if they're cheapos, probably good idea to replace them.

Brett
 
#7 ·
Thanks guys. I've read up on the wiring harness problem, and it was already replaced a few years ago according to the seller. I'm guessing it is the MAFs but we'll see. I don't think it's a vacuum leak from the way it acts.

ADS: Yes, the light is on most of the time. This morning for a couple miles on the way to work it was off, and it road like a Cadillac from the 60's. I think I may just remove the whole damn system and go with an H&R / Bilstein set up.

I'm looking at picking up some genuine AMGs to replace them. Personally I think the all blacked out look on cars is pretty played out. If it were me I wouldn't have tinted the windows nearly as much, and I want some nice painted silver wheels.

NEW ISSUE: I parked the car in the garage, and came back down about 45 minutes later and noticed a VERY strong smell of fresh fuel. Obviously that has me concerned. Is the fuel pump on these outside the tank like on W126s? I'm used to the in-tank pumps on BMWs.
 
#10 ·
oh nice, I'll buy it off you for 5k :D

But you figure with that mileage you got it for 5k. you put another 3500 into it. It's still worth it I guess.

I know the AC evap problem is a real pain.

Fuel pump is expensive too, I believe it's in tank.

Oh and you said something about the MAF sensor. There are 2 on this car btw.
 
#11 ·
LOL I'll sell it for 6k. :)

Haha. Anyway, that was my thought. I hope not to put 3500 into it, but I am going to repaint the hood, do something about the suspension, and fix the A/C. I don't mind DIY stuff, I do a lot of minor DIY and can do bigger things as long as I have a good guide to follow. I didn't think the A/C would be quite that big of a deal.

I noticed there are two. Yippee.
 
#12 ·
Yea, The M120 is a beast. It sucks up alot of fluids as well.

Well you figure the AC Evap costs around 2k-2.5k to fix. even DIY. It's just very expensive and prone to breakage in W140s.

Suspension, well if I recall correctly the S600 special dampening shocks are about 600 each. So going with aftermarket or remanufactured shocks would be your best bet. Bilisten like you stated earlier might have some options available.

Fuel pump...Well I figure that to be around 800 depending on where you get the work done or if you can do it yourself.

6k hmmm, tempting. lol. I'll take it for 6k after u fix it. :D haha
 
#14 ·
Thanks Brett. Not sure about the SULEV details, but on most BMWs just prior to that time frame, you just lift off the rear seat cushion, unscrew a couple screws and pull up, and the pump comes out. Wonder if the dealer gave him a line or there's some special SULEV info change, but I've never heard of anything like that and I've been part of the BMW community for quite a while. Usually BMW is good about making parts user friendly to replace.

I'll look around to see if it's leaking or spraying out any fuel. Is the filter inline with the pump as well?
 
#17 · (Edited)
The BMW SULEV thing is strange. There are only 3 (I think) states in which BMW sold/sells SULEV vehicles, those with the most stringent emissions laws, and of course, CA is one of them. The fuel tank in the SULEV car is one with the fuel pump. All other E46's have a "normal" easily replaceable fuel pump. And, it's only the first few years of E46's. The design was changed to a replaceable fuel pump for the last couple of years of E46 production. Clearly they saw the error in their ways. If you read through the E46 forums, you'll find discussions on this issue... But, I digress. Back to Mercedes.

Yes, the filter is right next to the pump. Here is the arrangement for a 1997 S600 sedan.

Fuel Filter Replacement in a W140 Mercedes

This article is on v12uberalles.com, but I don't know why it now seems to be on a site called w140repair.com. Pete must have rearranged things. V12uberalles has a lot of useful stuff on it. Worth bookmarking.

Early W140s had two fuel pumps in-line with each other. Later ones had just one. I don't know exactly when the break point was in production, around 1994 or 1995, I think. So your car could have 2 pumps.

Brett
 
#15 ·
Purchase Price of the car: $5000

And you're quibbling about a few repairs?

Do you realize what kind of car you have for that little bit of money, my friend? For example, just ONE of the two MAF sensors your car is equipped with, costs $5400 new from the dealer. So for less than the price of a module you can stick in your pocket, you bought the entire car!

You have a car that is state of the art, TODAY. Sure, newer models may have gee-whiz electronic gee-gaws (do they all work??), but nothing produced by ANY MANUFACTURER so far has topped the M120 motor for sheer beauty of engineering, nor has anything been better produced for quality of interior and exterior body make.

You realize virtually all of the interior is leather wrapped, or real suede, or wood? Surely all the tactile (stuff you touch) is. Even the carpets are plush velour, also not cheap.

Learn to appreciate what you have, what we all have, and you will not dicker over cheesy aftermarket substitutes for suspension components or other ways of 'cutting costs' by going cheap.

To the guys who know what they're doing as far as repairs go, and want to tinker on their cars, more power to them. But if you're looking to learn how to do things like evaporator replacements, I strongly suggest you get to a dealer or someone who does this sort of thing well and for a living.

You'll wind up happier and your car will be 'healthier' for your good choice.
 
#24 ·
Do you realize what kind of car you have for that little bit of money, my friend? For example, just ONE of the two MAF sensors your car is equipped with, costs $5400 new from the dealer.
Where do you get this stuff? The MAF is part number 000 094 02 48, it lists for $1340, is available from parts.com as a dealer part for $920, and is available as a Bosch rebuilt unit from AutohausAZ for $283. And on top of that hot wire MAFs fail so rarely that it's ridiculous. You're not supposed to just make stuff up.
 
#18 ·
mutiply the list of issues you posted here by 3

thats whats really wrong with it :)

welcome to hell. been there, it gets better. kinda

10-15k$ to fix it to driveable condition. and you are worried about 3500.. LOL!
 
#20 ·
SULEV BMWs are a pain, the whole car is. The engine/head is different. Still we replace at least one fuel tank a week on E90s and their variants due to inaccessible driver side sending units. That's when customers run out of fuel at 1/3 of a tank....lol It takes 7 hours or so, under bracing, exhaust, pump out tank, remove 1/2 the interior and console...sigh.


Anyhow, I guess you could spend a couple thousand paying a dealer to do all that work, or since you seem to have worked on cars before, soak up ALL the information you can on how to eliminate some of these issues yourself without compromising quality. That means OEM parts. Tell your dealer you are a mechanic and would like wholesale pricing, you'd be surprised.

Don't get scared though, you got a friggin deal, believe me. Take care of that engine first, a misfiring M120 will eat itself alive. Then move on to your suspension, AC, windows etc. That driver side window has adjustments in the door, ask Zaxxon, it can moved nearly every which way, up, down, forward, aft...a review once said that with W140s, no other car ever had so much thought put into it's windows, and it shows by the coupés design and the sedan. There's maybe a 1mm recess of the glass into the door frame, very streamlined. Hell, the whole car is great, never mind the issues, it's extraordinary when it all comes together, never before have I had a car that I purposely drive around just to enjoy it, and after all the work I put into it I know it's secure, safe, reliable and easy to maintain.

Good luck, enjoy!
 
#21 ·
Andrew, thanks for the info on the window.

Gyrate & Stryker, not sure what got in your panties but there's no ghetto fabulous stuff going on here. My goal is to de-ghetto-fy the car, what with the black replica wheels and drug dealer tints. I'm not trying to cheap out on anything - what do you do, go to the dealer, pull down your pants and bend over every time something breaks? If there's an OEM or OEM equivalent part of OEM quality for half the price, wouldn't you use it? If you can DIY something, wouldn't you do it? Or do you the kinda guy that pays the dealer $200 for an oil change?

IE, there's absolutely NO reason for a MAF to cost $5400 (if you're even correct about that). It's a simple electric device with a metal grate, a small wire, and a small sensor. If there's an OEM MAF made by Bosch (the OEM supplier) or another reputable company for a reasonable price, I'll go with that.

So far, even on the cars I've driven with ADS working, I wasn't that impressed. H&R Springs and Bilstein struts are top performing parts, not cheesy replacements.

I have a decent mechanical knowledge and have worked quite a bit on several different models of BMWs. Every car is different and I want to get the knowledge here to troubleshoot and repair W140s, not have some fanboy bitch at me to go to the dealer.

Sorry for that little rant, but for those that have been helpful, thanks very much! I look forward to learning from and contributing to this forum in the future.
 
#25 ·
what ghetto are you talking about? all im saying is that a 5k cl/s600 will need at least 10k to be brought up to spec. and that's really on the not going to happen scale.

there are many things wrong with it, you haven't discovered them yet. that is generally true for any s class though.

if you think you actually bought a cool car for 5k and won't spend a few times that amount on it in the next year, give a bum the keys right now because it will drive your bankrupt
 
#22 ·
#30 ·
dude looks like you are smart guy IF you want to know what is wrong with your mercedes just go to MB dealer and let them do DTC short test and you will pay only $35 backs and just say after they done that you need them to print all errors on the sheet of paper for you thats it! thats how I do it with my CL600 ,so I know what it needs and the rest of fix I do on my own.
 
#34 ·
Gyrate and I are usually on opposite ends of an argument, but in his assessment on this thread, he is 100% right-on. He, as I, am talking from experience, not theory.

The dealer installed a new MAF sensor in my coupe, and told me the price of the part was $5400. YIKES!! I found a company that rebuilt the sensor for only $250, and guaranteed the unit for life, to boot! Yes, there ARE alternatives out there and that's what makes this forum so valuable.

But as Gyrate says, the dealer is your first stop, an Indie might be helpful for less technical aspects, and of course, you can do what you can do.

When I bought my sedan, the PO was a 'collector' who needed to raise some cash. When I got it home, there were so many large and small issues with the car that I sent it to my Indie, who tried fixing things, but didn't have the specialty needed to get the car back. I wound up taking it to the dealer who fixed everything to factory new, and the bill wound up being about three times what I originally paid for the car. But the car today is PERFECT, with everything working as it should, everything done 'properly'. The Indie alerted me to the chewing gum/bailing wire method of repair the PO either did or had done, but some of the stuff was an absolute joke. Engine gaskets repaired with high heat silicone. Radiator repaired with glue. Most engine covers were missing, tossed out by too lazy (Indie) mechanics.

I'm sharing this with you because basically you need to ask yourself: Do you want the car in good shape, or will you accept a lesser standard? You don't have a go-kart, y'know. There are many proprietary elements to our cars, especially the coupe. Just the extending/retracting seatbelts, if you had to replace them, would cost over $3500 between parts and labor.

Of course, it's up to you. It's your car. But I've seen how repair costs can get away from anything you might have thought to expect. And Indie's and DIY may be a way to go for some who do this for a living or have the right guy, but I doubt the level of expertise outside of the dealer will be good enough to bring your car to fully restored condition.

I once was where you are now. I'm telling you what I know, not what I read.

Carry on!
 
#36 ·
OK. I'll carry this on as we drift off topic. LOL I have to thank NZ benz for his "Jesus car" comment. more LOL But, isn't it the Jesus car? Is the W140 not heaven sent? Well, at least until you have a problem with it.

I don't deny your experience Stryker, but one example isn't a statistically significant sampling. I think it's wonderful that you've received excellent service from your dealership; however, I'm pretty certain for every example of good service from a dealership you can cite, I could dredge up an equally poor example.

I don't have to go far for the first one. From Da_Boss' thread started just 9 days ago.

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w140-s-class/1543370-p0410-sec-air-injection-fault.html

Da_Boss said:
I have had my car for 2 years and have been endlessly chasing this issue on/off for that time. Nobody, not any of the local shops, or the dealer, can figure out what the cause is....

I have had it hooked up the STAR several times with no success. The same code is still present. I gave the dealer the car for 4 days and they came back and said replace an 02 sensor for $500. I got it myself for $99 and it did NOTHING!
I have two problems with Da_Boss' dealership experience. There is little justification for an O2 sensor replacement to cost $500. It's a 30 min job at most, and that includes the time needed to wash the car for the customer after the sensor replacement is done. 2. The diagnosis given to him was unjustifiably way, way off base. We seem to have helped Da_Boss narrow his problem down to his air injection pump by simply having him disconnect the electrical connector to the pump (purposely disabling it), which resulted in elimination of all his running problems. Seems to be a pretty good case for the pump being the source of the issue. I have to question the dealership mechanic's diagnostic abilities when they can't think of doing that very simple "experiment." Is that what we've come to? Our dealerships are staffed with computer geeks who know how to hook up a computer, download codes, then read a book about what to do about it... But, if there's something else slightly off that doesn't conform to the "book," they're out of their league?

I'm imagining the conversation between the mechanic and the service writer going something like this:

Mechanic: I don't know, man. It's stumbling a little bit and occasionally gives P0410. I've hooked up the STAR, and that's all I got, P0410. I can actuate the pump and valve. All looks good right now. Could be the pump. I'm gonna need 2 maybe 3 more hours of diagnostics.

Service writer: Nah, don't waste your time. I'll try to sell him an O2 sensor for $500, and if he doesn't bite, let him walk. Let's get some more money makers on that lift.

The problem with the dealership service business model, is that the service writer works on commission. It's in the service writer's best interest to sell you the highest dollar-per-hour service experience possible.

I don't think you do a service to the community by canvassing independents as unable to properly service the W140. Yes, many independents may be self-taught yahoos, but many are factory trained techs who set off on their own and are good at what they do. I think the more useful approach would be to tell us which independents to avoid rather than sanctifying dealerships.

Brett
 
#37 ·
Gyrate & Stryker - perhaps I didn't properly introduce myself. I'm not an expert DIY'er, but I've been in the German car community for many years now and I'm very familiar with the general peculiarness of German cars. I've owned 5 or 6 BMWs of varying vintages and do most of my own work. Most of my family in the area drive exclusively BMWs.

I do have an indy mechanic that does Mercedes & BMW only. My family and I have been taking all our cars there for years for things beyond our expertise or time constraints, and I would absolutely trust my car to them far beyond any junior tech at the dealer that mostly does oil changes, tire rotations, and "visual inspections" all day. I have never taken any car to a dealer service department I don't believe I ever will. I've seen too many family and friends either get hosed, or just have their car neglected by an inexperienced tech. I have bought several parts from the dealer though as I prefer OE parts when it's reasonable.

Like I said, I want to be here and *learn,* and later *contribute* to this forum of what I've learned. Comments acting like I need to take it to the dealer or it will explode don't help either of those goals and only diminish the shared knowledge here.

It's the same thing with BMWs - there's no such thing as a truly cheap German luxury car. I bought this thing for 5 grand knowing very well it needs a few more thousand in work to make it in good shape. It doesn't need to be concours quality - it *is* a 16 year old mass-produced car - but I would like it to have most everything working as it should and looking good. I don't buy for one second it needs 10k to make it decent.....lol.

I understand you may have had a miserable experience with your car. Not everyone that has a W140 has repaired it with bubble gum and duct tape, though, so YMMV is the caveat. Just because it cost you 10k to bring a neglected 140 back to spec doesn't mean every second hand S-Class is the same.



I digress. Thanks for the welcome, all.
 
#40 ·
:bowdown::bowdown: winter project time!

fyi, you can rebuild the front end on e38 on jackstands. not so much on a 140. but close enough.

actually every 140 is the same. you will see, give it time. the ones that are different aren't for sale for obvious reasons.
 
#38 ·
BTW, just picked up some AMG Monoblocks from a W220. 18x8.5 et 44 and 18x9.5 et 46. Think I got a good deal for $500. Pilot Sports all around that are about read to be replaced.

My problem here is the lug bolts don't quite fit. I've read through the wheel fitment thread and not sure what exactly I need for the bolts to make them fit. When I bought the car the seller gave me 2 sets of bolts, both of them have too short of a threaded section, and it barely protrudes past the mounting face of the wheel. Can anyone with these wheels tell me the proper bolt specs, as I'm not even sure exactly which model Monoblocks they are?

Obligatory pics:

Image


Image


Have you ever seen anyone sell *used* wheels this clean?! Me neither...

Image
 
#39 ·
you probably need to buy new bolts. they almost never fit wheels other than shipped from factory-with-car stock ones. make sure you get BALL seat, NOT CONE seat (vw/audi)

all else is the same size/type as for other german cars. ebay is a good place for that... might have to do some guesswork on the lenght you need. there is a way to measure it too actually. put bolt in oem wheel, measure how much it sticks out. put bolt in new wheel, measure and calculate the difference.
 
#41 ·
If your suspension fluid is low it will cause your light to be on. Fill it to the proper level and turn the steering wheel lock to lock a few times and it will reset itself. If the fluid is low and you do not have an external leak that you can see then the nitrogen speres are blown. I think I paid $550ish for all 4 and put them in myself. It could also be a few sensors that are gone, it needs to be hooked up to the star diagnostic machine at the dealer to pull suspension codes.

As far as the idle I would buy new MAFs and swap them out it is a very easy DIY. I would also do plugs,wires,cap and rotor. Basic tune up stuff that should be done anyways. I have a thread on the r129 section with prices and whatnot for the suspension and tune up stuff I have done on my car. I think $3500 is on the low side to sort the car out and even more so if you are going to pay for labor. It cost near $100 just in oil not to mention 2 air filters, 2 maf, and 12 plugs and wires. I think as long as the wiring harness and the wiring in the 2 throttle actuators have been sorted then it wont be too bad. But if you have wiring issues on top of the other issues it will get pretty expensive fast trying to sort it out
 
#43 · (Edited)
Off topic?? I thought the title of the thread was asking whether or not this new owner of an S600 coupe was a glutton for punishment, and Gyrate and I are giving him some solid Do's and Don't's based on our experience.

Bottom line, you and everyone else here needs to look at their cars for what they want out of them. Personally, I wanted to bring my cars to 'pristine' condtion and I wasn't about to try the 'Live in hope, die in despair' rountine, so after getting some good assessments from my Indie, took it to the dealer to deal with stuff my Indie (who is an admitted generalist, not a Mercedes specialist) couldn't deal with, like the faulty air comperssor under the rear seat, like the replacement of all the engine and tranny supports, like the replacement of the center console wood and all the buttons, niggly stuff like that to bring the cars to as new conditon. My Indie DID replace the old radiator with a new one in the sedan, he DID do some of the BASICs, but for some/most of the special systems our cars have, the dealer not only did a better job in a more efficient manner, but if the repairs don't hold, he'll replace/repair at no further cost.

As for the jibber/jabber about the dealer giving you a constant hassle to buy a new(er) S-Class, that's simply never come up with mine. In fact, the dealer I use gives special attention to my cars because they're rare and now, in museum-quality shape, which they respect highly. Once, while my sedan was in their care, a bird shat on the roof and they didn't see it until a day or two later. They were so embarrassed that no one caught it, they REPAINTED the roof for me (at no cost to me of course), keeping me informed all the way.

I suggest those of you who have had bad dealer experiences revisit your approach to the dealer: If you're quibbling with them over minors, you may have set in their mind that you're a problem customer and to be discouraged. I do the opposite: I'll let them slide on minors, but we wrestle to the mat on majors, and I have the manager's cell phone on speed dial. So how you approach a dealer says it all about what that relationship is all about.

So, I would have to say if you're a new owner and you want to be a glutton for punishment, develop the mindset that you're going to the 'stealership' (what nonsense!), but if you want to get your car to respectable condition (it looks already to be in good shape), develop a solid relationship with the dealer closest to you and you'll reach your goals. I know I did!

And we're still fully on topic, are we not??