The advantage the SDS method has is the fluid in pressure reservoir is purged.

If the Speedibleed is used you won't get all of it out of the system due to the reservoir.

 

How about if done by the second method in my first post:

2. If the ignition is turned on (where all the dash lights are on, but enigne not started) and then a bleed nipple is opened, wouldn't that result in the pressure in the line dropping, hence activating the SBC pump , which would then attempt to increase pressure, but would result in the system bleeding.

If one was to continue to add fresh fluid to the resevouir until fresh fluid drained out the bleed nipple, you would get the system flushed.

 

I strongly think the pressure bleeder is to provide brake fluid only in the SDS method. I ran through the simulation steps in the system. They are troublesome.

Noodles, did you try bleeding with SDS?

 

I did with my friend the race tech. I would not want to try the SDS method
alone. It tells you what to do in what amount of time and chasing around the
car. So we did it as a team and one of us was always checking the level and topping
it off as the SBC pump pushed more out.

The pedal did feel more solid after the change. I do the ML the old fashion
way and for both vehicles I use the MB DOT 4+ fluid.

 

Mohnish,

Noodles is correct and this is a common issue with all ABS-type cars. For the W211 with SBC, many of us have bleed out the braking system (not including the SBC) using the conventional pressurized method. I've already done this twice (every 2 yrs) using the Motive bleeder. The fluid remaining in the SBC's accumulator will eventually mix with the new fluid and you can get rid of it the next time you bleed your brakes.

Here's a post from member "drivbiwire" that I keep for reference.

BTW, there's a company in Taiwan that makes a tool to exercise the SBC to do brake bleeding as well as shutdown the system for maintenance -- they wanted around $500 +s/h the last time I called them. If you're interested, I'll look for their name and post it here.

Regards,
paul...

 

...
Noodles is correct and this is a common issue with all ABS-type cars. For the W211 with SBC, many of us have bleed out the braking system (not including the SBC) using the conventional pressurized method. I've already done this twice (every 2 yrs) using the Motive bleeder. The fluid remaining in the SBC's accumulator will eventually mix with the new fluid and you can get rid of it the next time you bleed your brakes....

I assume you have not had any problems with the system with a bit of the old fluid still circulating?

I still wonder what would happen if you were to open the bleed nipple with the ignition on, which would result in a drop line pressure activating the SBC pump while constantly adding fresh fluid to the master cylinder resevouir. Wouldn't this way also clear out the old fluid in the SBC resevouir?

...BTW, there's a company in Taiwan that makes a tool to exercise the SBC to do brake bleeding as well as shutdown the system for maintenance -- they wanted around $500 +s/h the last time I called them. If you're interested, I'll look for their name and post it here...

Yep, I read about that system availablity, but considering this needs to be done once every 2 years, doesn't seem cost effective.

There must be a simpler way to do this!!!

 

Thank you paulv for your help and really appreciate your patience on this.

Will go with the speedibleed method as the kit can be imported here (India).

I presume there aren't any special procedures that should be followed and it is a regular standard bleed.

Will post back after I get this done or if I get stuck!

Thanks again.

 

Thank you ............

I presume there aren't any special procedures that should be followed and it is a regular standard bleed.

..................

You're welcome.

The only thing I did was to disconnect the SBC by pulling up on the connector bracket which will pull out the connector -- no need to physically remove the connector. After done, I reconnected the SBC and tapped the brake pedal a few times.

Regards,
paul...

 

Slight off topic:

Spoke with the A.S.S. here in Mumbai and they were kind enough to inform me that in India :

1. The vehicle is serviced every 10K kms (6K miles) or annually, whichever is earlier.

2. The brake fluid is flushed with every service, alongwith changing the engine oil / filter. Besides the above, any other parts (belts, filters etc.) that may require replacement/cleaning are done as needed.

3. If the vehicle has been maintained by the A.S.S. since purchase during standard warranty and also after in the manner above (as mine has), and if the SBC threshold is breached, they will change the SBC as a matter of course, without any charge.

They charge between INR 20,000.00 to INR 35,000.00 (US$ 430.00 to US$ 650.00) for the service.

If you opt for only a brake fuid flush its INR 4,500.00 (US$100.00)

If your SBC pump failed and it was not covered by the above stated warranty, then you would end up paying INR 80,000.00 (US$ 1800.00)

This all told to me verbally on the phone...Can't vouch for any of it, but its a start!

Above just for info.

Safer for me to go to the A.S.S. and ask them if the warranty on my SBC would be valid if they only did the SBC fuid flush...Its easily worth US$ 100.00 to hold onto the warranty, not to mention to get the job done "correctly". Peace of mind considering its the brakes.

 

I used my Motive bleeder on the E.

One bit of advice, when you suction out the old fluid (please dont pump old fluid thru the SBC....) take it down so that there is still approx. 1/4" of fluid in the master cylinder inlets. If you get some air in there, it will purge BUT it will throw a code. No problem for me since I can clear them, but its a pain when you have to let the system do a couple resets with flashing red SBC warnings...don't ask how I know If it happens, don't sweat it. When you cycle the ignition the system will perform a self purge to pump the air out. It simply pulls new fluid and routes it back to the reservoir. If I recall it took 4-5 cycles and the SBC warning was cleared from the cluster window.

Next time I am going to use the Xentry by way of the official method (maybe this week). I'll report back which one was easier.

 

Thanks drivbiwire. I am always interested to see if the DAS SBC flush can be done with a Manual Bleeder like Motive one. I am too novice to experiment using a manual bleeder with DAS SBC flush.

Today, I just did the flush using a Motive bleeder. I sucked the old fluid out and never pass lower than the min mark. RR, RL, FR, and FL sides were bled in sequence. So far so good! I notice the Motive bleeder doesn't hole pressure very well. I guess it was leaking at the Master cylinder cap. I had to tighten it using a lot of force. Took a little over 3 hrs to do it. I notice the Pump goes on more frequently than before however. Is it normal? Did I break something? I checked all 4 wheels. No signs of brake fluid leaking.

 

I used one that was powered that I borrowed.

Not sure of the brand, I can find out.

 

http://ww2.justanswer.com/uploads/eurotec/2010-06-23_195335_sbc_bulletin.pdf

Exactly how the system purges air itself? I am going to try that. I now hear squeaking noise when I apply the brake.

 

If you look at the reservoir there is a return line. The system will pull fluid and then dump it back to the reservoir. If any air is pulled into the SBC unit, it will be purged by way of the return system.

If you got air in the lines running from the SBC to the specific caliper, you will need to perform another bleed since there is no return line on the calipers.

That procedure appears to simply force a fluid exchange in the SBC unit and the reservoir.

 

The pedal seems to be firmer after the DAS air release. Drove the car for 30mins, the squeak seems to be gone. Pump seems to come on after every 2 to 3 braking when on the road now. Before the air release, it was like every time I depress the pedal and duration was long and noise was loud. I guess every 2 to 3 braking is normal.

While doing the air release, I had my eyes on the reservoir with a flashlight. I didn't see any fluid movement from the return line. It could be so little that it was unnoticeable.

 

i flush it again with MB Dot 4 plus. It was ATE Blue racing Dot 4. For very sure it is the wrong fluid. Viscosity is way wrong. Pump cycles full time almost. Don't use ATE Blue fluid!! I can't get rid of the blue tint in my system too. MB fluid is a lot thinner. That is why.

 

Using ATE Blue in my 2005 E500 4 matic and no issues with pump coming on. IF you look on your brake calipers you will see that it is an ATE brake system. this gives me extra confidence that ATE is the proper fluid and compatible with the system.

Jeff.

 

And I'd be interested in finding out if anyone has used the ATE SL.6 brake fluid in the SBC system. I used that fluid in my '05 Volvo S40 and loved it as the ABS system became much more responsive. From a viscosity standpoint, it is very similar to the Pentosin Dot 4 LV fluid. If this is too thin a viscosity for the SBC system, fine, I'll use the Pentosin, but having used ATE products for the last few years I am a fan. Any experience out there?

 

ATE race fluids work great and have higher boil temps than average MB fluid. But MB and mainstream products have additives that reduce absorption of water which means you can flush after 2 years. ATE and race products (I use Motul) are flushed after every track or race event so it doesnt stay too long.
I would not recommend ATE or rae applocations for daily drivers. Just my 0.02

 

MB recommends DOT4 or DOT4 Type 200 brake fluid, which has higher Boiling points than LS.6. You should go w/Ate Type 200.

 

Some really great information on how the W211 SBC system functions:


MBUSA Technical Training PDF files



Scroll down to the following:

319 HO SBC (WJB) 9-30-02.pdf




I am currently reading it through thoroughly to figure out a way I can flush the system fully(accumulator and all) without the SDS equiptment. Should be doable if the proper solenoids are activated/deactivated. The PDC system appears to be deactivated when the accelerator pedal is actuated which could help preclude CEL's. Maybe a few of us DIY types can look at this together and come up with a functional methodology to make this work. Worse case is that one might perhaps have to create a simple set of leads to power up certain SBC components during the procedure.

 

I see that it will be cake to bleed the front brake calipers. Basically looks like you would disconnect the SBC pump unit, suction out almost all the reservoir fluid(all but 1/4" over the master cylinder inlets as DrivBiWire points out) add new fluid to the reservoir, and proceed to do a standard up/down brake fluid flush on the fronts(Motive bleeder would also work too). This is possible on the front due to the fact that while the SBC unit is unpowered it is in the emergency operation mode which supplies fluid only to the front calipers directly from the tandem master cylinder. While the system is unpowered all the solenoid valves fail in a position such that no fluid goes to the SBC unit. FYI

 

I know you all must think I'm crazy for doing this, but I just want to have the ability to do as much as possible on my vehicle with my own two hands and not have to rely on the dealer and their high prices/potentially poorly trained workforce. I was reading through DrivBi's PDF on brake fluid flush, and trying for the life of me to understand how in the world it would be able to flush the entire SBC system without activating the pump, energizing solenoids and all the other stuff that happens when you use SDC to complete the procedure.

Comparing the motive bleed procedure DrivBi put together it becomes apparent that it actually doesn't get the old fluid from the whole system. The Motive bleed procedure pressurizes the supply and return of the tanden master cylinder. When the system is deenergized, the bleed valve holding pressure on the calipers opens up(simultaneously isolating the pressure from the pump/accumulator) allowing the residual caliper pressure to vent to the reservoir -so this means during the motive brake bleed procedure the pressure(15 psi or so) is back fed to the calipers which is why when you loosen the bleed screws you have low pressure/low volume fluid vent out. Cool!! Problem I see is that the internal SBC hydraulic circuit(accumulator, pump, check valves, solenoid valves etc) have a small volume of brake fluid in them. Hmmm, now to figure out a way around that that doesn't involve SDC....


..

 

That is what I wanted to post. There is actually a little more in there (especially the accumulator/valves) than you would expect. The SDS sends the signals to push all of that out. It is about a 2-3 liter job as a result of the SDS doing all the pressurizing and then catching the spent fluid. I was surprised at how much went through the system. They are big calipers, and the lines are long on the wagon so it is worth it to keep the SBC system in good shape.

 

Neat little video on the SBC system:

..

 

ATE Blue is good stuff.
I use the Castrol SRF for the track.

I agree that the MB fluid is best for everyday use. I have a lot of brake fluids here and only have used the MB fluids in the MBs we have.

 

ATE's recommended interval for the SL.6 fluid is 2 years in case anyone wanted to know. Of course, for this next brake fluid flush, I ended up buying Pentosin Super Dot 4 Plus. Also, it may have been mentioned, some people have said you never get all the fluid out because of what is built up in the pressure reservoir. That would be the case if you simply disconnected the batteries and flushed, but using a special tool or star diagnostics when you deactivate the SBC system, part of the shut down procedure is for a back flush of reservoir fluid up into the brake fluid master reservoir. According to the info I was looking at, this amounts to about 300 Ml of fluid.

 

Anyone have any detailed wiring diagrams for the SBC wiring harness? I would love to be able to continue to figure out how I may flush the SBC system without the SDC computer, and need to know which pins in the SBC unit go where. Any help would be appreciated!

..

 

And to think that we thought it was going to be a simple fix with that tool.

 

Yes, actually the tool should work as far as I know. That's on the other Thread. This is for the SBC unit wiring harness I need the schematic for the pin out. Another one of my many projects I have going!

..

 

I am losing more of my mind by the minute.

 

Nice little video, thanks!


Sent from my Autoguide iPhone app

 

I just bled my brakes yesterday and have to say I don't think I'd want to do it on an SBC system without DAS and your gateway of choice. First off, when the SBC system is deactivated, it purges its pressure reservoir back into the master reservoir. This accounts for about 300mL of old fluid, which is pretty significant as a percentage of the total volume of brake fluid in the system. My back right caliper which I bled first had a significant amount of air and some white debris of some sort in it. I was using a Motive Power Bleeder with European adapter cap which fit perfectly with a nice, tight seal. I ended up using 1.75L of fluid to bleed the system and then topped up the reservoir with my last 250 mL can. When the system is reactivated, it sucks about 300mL out of the reservoir into the pressure reservoir so you have to top up again. It will pre-charge to 60 Bar and hold there for a pressure check before fully pressurizing to 141 bar, then will measure pressure at each caliper. I took the car for a test drive and whether or not wha I felt was placebo effect, I thought the brakes were more responsive and had better feel. Even though the brake feel is artificially created, the car creates it better on new fluid and certainly isn't working as hard to compress all that air that was in the lines. I had long debated just buying the tool that deactivates and reactivates the braking system, but after seeing all the other things I can do with Star Diagnostics, I'm glad I spent the money on it.