Braingears - 5/9/2005 7:53 PM

Is there anything that can be done to upgrade the performance on the M104 engine that doesn't cost a fortune?

Chuck

define what a fortune is perceived by you
the most bang for your buck would be nitrous
never read or seen it in a m104 but i'd wanna hear if anybody else has

 

You should leave Nos for hot rods only! I think nitrous could damage many functions on a newer Benz! I had Nos installed in my 5.0L conv. Mustang years back. Great bang for your buck but, I had to replace spark plugs and check the motor everytime I used the spray! Also, my timing chain snaped and I had to replace it with gear drive! What I'm trying to say is that with Nos, many mods to your car are needed prior to installing the infamous spray!!!!
$$$$$$$$$$$$

 

In addition to installing NOS:

• Forged Pistons
• Larger Radiator
• Higher Degree Thermostat
• AMG/Custom Water Pump(possibly change to a smaller pulley)
• Larger Oil Cooler(maybe a sump for an additional quart or two)

So no, this is not cheap... I'm working on this, but first building a supercharger, then going for the NOS route, but it ain't cheap when it come to experiments. Going for the dry-shot. I'm building a drag car not a daily driver.

I had ran across this
READ!!! Free HP for W201 & W124 owners! (Pictures!) - PeachParts Mercedes ShopForum

They claim a noticeable difference.
But I didn't, when I tried it on my w201 I used to have

I remember reading that in a DIY articl on Rick's website(2Phast).:thumbsup:

 

heard of supercharging.. best bang for a buck..

 

custom turbos cost 2500..

 

I think that I would have a better chance of finding a wrecked AMG and swipe the engine...

 

I haven't found anything. All I've seen is radical stuff, like engine swaps with turbos, etc...
I did see one site call Powerchips (IIRC) but they want $400-500
I think for a 2.8 L6 it's tuned pretty well stock, maybe a cone air filter and less restrictive exahaust might give you a few extra ponies
(doing a engine swap from an AMG would be too much work, need tranny, ECU, driveline, etc... then upgrade brakes, suspension, etc..)

otherwise just buy a C36
at least that's what I'm going to do, if I can find a decent one that "kid racer" hasn't trashed

 

This is why I am getting less interested in Mercedes benz. Not enough option to upgrade the car, even somethings are avaialable, freaking expensive. I have moded all of my previews cars, but not my benz, which is sad.
Since it keeps breaking down, I'm busy with repairing it, not modding it.
If I do mod on my car, it would be only cosmetical stuff...not for performance.

 

The Germans are better at modding their cars than you will ever be. So....it would make more sense to buy one of their performance oriented models, rather than grouse around about modifying a run-of-the-mill, E series six cylinder car. Or, pay the money for a well maintained 500.

Kevin
Approve REF.71

 

There's cams, header, chip.

 

Where, what brand name, model #, etc, etc...?? :nicethread:

You would think in this day and age of tuner cars and ready available performance parts for other vehicles you'd think Merc would get into the game.

For every one of my BMWs I owed, I had no problem finding quality performance chips at a low cost almost anywhere

I like my C280 but it would be great to have a 5 speed manual for better acceleration

...be funny to see a Roush Mercedes model

 

The MB engines are already souped up. You have an engine that is smaller than 200 cubic inches making about 200 Horsepower. It takes lots of bolt on goodies to make an American V8 reach the 1 Horsepower per cubic inch level and at that point, their durability starts going out the window.

Your engine is making 1 Horsepower per cubic inch with smoothness and unbelievable long term durability. The MB engineers did a great job, congratulate them and enjoy the fruit of their labor.

 

Agreed, the m104 is a marvel in engineering...even today. It lends itself to supercharging (my choice) and turbocharging. If the OP is looking to find bolt-ons from JEGS et all, then he bought the wrong car. Disappointed (?), sell the car to someone who will appreciated it and buy a tuner car. If you want something faster from MB, then pay the money and go to a different model already intact.

Kevin

 

"The MB engineers did a great job, congratulate them and enjoy the fruit of their labor."

My sentiments exactly, except that I cannot deny what the twin Garrett T2 turbos on my 300E M103 did to that car (fitted from new by a main dealer with MB approval): performance to knock your socks off and clearly superior to the SL500 I have recently acquired (0.5 sec quicker to 60). That conversion has also been done to the M104 and I believe there are still kits available, although it's not a DIY bolt-on job.

That said, I find the performance of my E320 Coupé perfectly adequate and very refined.

 

There are quite a few members with the 'twins' on m103's....it appears the way to go on that engine for performance. While the m103 is nearly impossible to supercharge, the m104 lends itself to that well, I'm told. When you consider what the cost would be to transplant a V-8 MB (with all the things that go with it) into these cars.....it makes more $$ sense to turbo the m103 or supercharge the m104. As far as the OP's concept of $100 bolt-ons here and there...it ain't gonna happen.

Kevin
Approve REF.71

 

So what kind of anderung hexerei do you have to perform to make it accelerate quicker from naught? :stupid:

throttle body???
http://www.racecarsonly.com/classifieds/Tetails/I:b22fd144-1560-5a05-125b-1335eb8f97be/index.htm

 

". As beautiful as my old wagon is, when I drive 60 miles to the dealer, they look at my car like it's some white trash cousin to their new stuff. I know better, but still..... "

that made me laugh

thanks for the info and insight

those performance site references don't have specific model types listed and they want you to email them for prices which usually translated to $$$$
which emphasizes the before mentioned

 

Some of this is just semantics and the true definition of a production 'sports car'. Most of the production "sporty" cars fall into separate categories today like: sport tourer, luxury GT, sports sedan, retro sports car, exotic sports car and supercar. The Viper is one of the few real production 'sports cars' left. Even the Vette today would be considered a luxury GT.

The SLR McLaren is the rowdy son of a perfect marriage: MB weds McLaren (their racing partner) and AMG builds the engine at their plant. 'One man, one engine'. Each engine is assembled by one engineer; that engine is signed, sent to Woking, England and the car assembled there. Perfect bled of speed and high tech throughout. One of the worlds fastest cars, a engineering marvel and a MB....so MB hasn't forgotten racing or "sporty" cars. And....we weren't talking about production #'s here, just the assertion that MB never made "sporty" or "sports cars", which is false.

Kevin
Approve REF.71

 

What about enlarging the displacement on M104? Isn't that the way E36 got its powerpalnt? By giving M104 2.8 a 350SD crank? There are companies in D which modify engines that way along with ECU and camshafts mod.

 

Again, if you follow the path AMG did and consider turbo or supercharging as well, you'll get there. As we've said, along with RBYCC's personal experience and comments, it will COST $$. My personal idea is to have that guy in Seattle (on another forum), turbo my m103. Of course, whatever you do is your own road to hp success. On these engines for the money, turbo and/or supercharging will give you the most gains. Especially when you start talking about tearing down an engine, re-boring, fitting custom rods and pistons, different cams and porting the head etc.

I guess I can't understand or wrap my head around the fact that most of you guys are ignoring what's already been done by guys like RBYCC. His twin turbo m103 is BADDDD ASS. There's a fantastic resource....just politely ASK him. You're trying to reinvent the wheel here, which is just plain....:twak:

Kevin
Approve REF.71

 

I had ran across this
READ!!! Free HP for W201 & W124 owners! (Pictures!) - PeachParts Mercedes ShopForum

They claim a noticeable difference.
But I didn't, when I tried it on my w201 I used to have

 

Okay, first of all, just to clarify, 500E dominates E34 M5 hands down thats mainly why they built the car (It also destroys various mustangs, C4 corvettes, lots of tuner cars...etc ;P). The M119 pretty much dominates almost any BMW production engine....ever. Also, the 190e 16v dominated as soon as AMG got their hands on it, read about it. When the 190 16v came out in 1984 or whatever, some records....I believe it was.....almost all of them got broken, something like 250km/hr set over 50,000km. I can't remember the specifics. Also from what I understand AMG put the E30 M3 down like a rabid dog after Mercedes FINALLY dropped those Cosworth guys, 420bhp out of a 2.5L??? right thats not sporty. Lets not forget the most important "not sports car" the 300SL Gullwing, wow what was Mercedes thinking designing such an unsporty car. Their lack of sports car knowledge really hindered them through the years with all the DTM titles and cars like the SLR, CLK Black, and the SLS. They have partnered with many tuners of the years to make some of the most unsporty cars ever! If the M5 is a sports car, I would think things like the EV12, the 280SEL 6.8 (the AMG racer not he MB production car, the 6.3 is a damn fine example though), the Brabus 6.5L 500E, etc would be too. If sports car is a weight thing, the E34 was only slightly lighter than the 500E and the E39 was like 400lb heavier than the 210 E55!

That's half the reason I am posting, I feel better now.

Back on topic. Its going to be hard to tune any "older" German car because they were built mostly topped out from the factory because Germans aren't allowed to mod like Americans, thats why they have tuning firms like Brabus, AMG, etc.

Modding a mercedes is no small matter the m119 and m104 cost more new than most whole cars cost today and mercedes spent millions of Deutsch marks to get it there. The 3.6 AMG motor is sourced from a 2.8 because the 3.2 bore is too large, there is a crank swap, rods, pistons, valves, cams, etc. It is much easier just to go out and get a 95 or 96 C36 motor (PRE M.E. units, only 97 had ME) for $2500 and just drop it in your car. Its a DIRECT bolt in, you can even run it with 3.2 fuel and ignition, reset the adaptation and it will drive. You won't put real power down till you can get it tuned, which really isn't that much of an issue, its been done. You really need to build your .3 to handle that mess or its going to blow chunks. The 104's can handle plenty o' boost, search whipplem104 he has like 300rwhp 104 car. Search function is your friend! All most any option to make decent power the right way is going to leave you 6k+ in the hole (Mossleman makes a TT kit for about that much, they sell you everything you need).

My suggestion is if you have to stick with m104 then do the 3.6 swap (turbo that if you want). If you can live with moving to a v8 buy a 500, but read everything you can, they are EXPENSIVE to repair if you buy one that wasn't maintained. By the time you source cams and do head work etc on your 3.2L you'll be at the cost of a 3.6 swap. Contact Jonathan Hodgeman in Atlanta Ga (AMG East) I am working with him on M119 upgrades. He has some experience with mossleman turbo kits and he has been threatening to do a 3.6L swap and I have been threatening to help him. Speed is just a question of funding!

-Mike

 

I pretty much said all this, just not so specific. I should have gagged myself when he said that MB never made a "sporty" car or "sports cars". I mean if he said and believes that and doesn't consider the 300SL a 'sports car', or the McLaren SLR "sporty" (not to mention the V-12 two seaters MB made), then where do you go from there? It's just a waste of energy....

whipplem104 is a really nice and knowledgeable guy....he's gonna turbo my m103 when I get around to it. It doesn't make sense to open those old motors up, bore, replace rods, pistons, cams...flow the head etc. Much better like you say, to bolt in something fresher or turbo what you have.

Kevin
Approve REF.71

 

Yeah Kevin, I got a little excited....

Actually pretty much everything is forged so you don't need to do any internal work for NOS. You just need to be aware of heat management! Make sure your mixture is right any I bet a 104 could do a 75hp shot with no problem. Probably easier than a 119 because you don't have to drill out the air mass. If the motor can handle the boost people are throwing at it stock then a little NOS shouldn't hurt anything if you do it right. Why not do the 36 swap AND the NOS? These motors are stout! I had a Benz engineer tell me the M119 bottom end was good for 800HP + no problem. If you have ever had the sub pan off these bad boys then you know this is serious business.

After reading Whipple's stuff it seems pretty good. I would think that .6 swap with a high gear like a 3.27 would be worth more than 50hp at the wheels.

 

Something I learned in the forum a couple of years ago, shopping upgrades while the engine was blowned. The W124 Sedan option of power is made in model numbers.
(E320, E420, etc...)

I learned;

1. If I wanted more power, I should have bought a 400E/E420.(why? mileage is only 2 mpg difference with 275HP vs. 217HP) or Find an E36 or C36 (with 268HP and about the same mpg) and buy it, the time and money is cheaper.
2. The Wagon(S/T124) does not come in a V8 so an engine swap is forseable
3. The Coupe(A/C124) does not come in a V8 so an engine swap is forseable

I'm butchering my car right now, only understanding that it's my project car and not something to show as a daily driver or classic car. This will always be my lifetime hobby tinkering. If I find the right E420, 500E or even an S320, then I'll buy it and leave it alone. Otherwise, don't try to find ways to come up with a "Cheaper" way of doing things, other's here having been doing for year with trial and error. That's what the forum is for. A little use of the search button won't hurt. Even google has links to this and other Mercedes forums.

FYI turbocharging is expensive and not most kits are NLA(no longer available).

Like whipplem104, he's probably in his project for a lifetime. Unless you're ready to do the same, just be happy with what you got. Otherwise, you'll never end the project car madness.

Good Luck!:thumbsup:

 

I'm butchering my car right now, only understanding that it's my project car and not something to show as a daily driver or classic car. This will always be my lifetime hobby tinkering. If I find the right E420, 500E or even an S320, then I'll buy it and leave it alone. Otherwise, don't try to find ways to come up with a "Cheaper" way of doing things, other's here having been doing for year with trial and error. That's what the forum is for.

Heh heh, butchering is fun and not really all that rational as an economic investment in time and money. I'm now way way into my project money-pit, and have no way to justify it other than the simple understanding that I love the challenge and fully plan to keep the car till the bitter end.

 

Thanks for all the info

I can deal with the moderate performance (and good gas mileage) of my M104/C280 for now

I figure I'll avoid all the drama and find an AMG W202 or W210 model in the near future

otherwise I'll find an old E30 BMW 325i and do an E36 M3 engine conversion
I know a BMW mechanic/racer in the bay area (Bill Arnold) that did this with a 90 or 91 318i sedan as a sleeper car and it's pretty impressive

here's a 72 Bavaria he built and raced
http://rides.webshots.com/album/204329032GhvkOt

 

Classic, did he tub out the rear or cut into the inside wheel wells?

By the way, the last of the M104 was in 1997 on a C36 and E36, very rare and had something that a lot of people criticized, ASR. But still the best engine ever built, with the exception to a M103 of course.

 

MaxMatt

Good call on EPC, I thought I had read that the 3.2/2.8 bores were different. In europe you can get crazy diesel performance items not given to us in the US. I would much rather do a OM606 swap than the 3.6 gas swap. Build an injection pump and turbo for that bad boy.

I think this would actually perform better and lend itself to modification more than a gas motor.

The .6 swap is totally possible. The S320's had the .6 and the 97' C36 so it has the right bolt pattern, you would need a drive shaft made which is no problem and a TCM. The TCM is the problem, whipplem104 has one for sale that is 90% worked out. The problem is you have to pretty much re teach all the shift points, its a real mess.

-Mike

 

MaxMatt

Good call on EPC, I thought I had read that the 3.2/2.8 bores were different. In europe you can get crazy diesel performance items not given to us in the US. I would much rather do a OM606 swap than the 3.6 gas swap. Build an injection pump and turbo for that bad boy.

I think this would actually perform better and lend itself to modification more than a gas motor.

I guess the grass is always greener on the other side

I don't want a hard-smoking drag machine sounding like a crop-harvester. (No offence to diesel modders). I had a diesel for a long time and I didn't like the loudness, the vibration and the black smoke. I don't like the way turbodiesels accelerate - they get all the power in one big bunch in between 2-4K rpms and afterwards just scream.

Yes, it is quite easy to find a nice TDI and have it tuned for small $$$ to have exceptional power, but that's not what I am looking for.

I like the silence in my 300E. I like the feeling that when I come to a stop there is only one thing that reminds me engine is actually running - the tachometer.

The .6 swap is totally possible. The S320's had the .6 and the 97' C36 so it has the right bolt pattern, you would need a drive shaft made which is no problem and a TCM. The TCM is the problem, whipplem104 has one for sale that is 90% worked out. The problem is you have to pretty much re teach all the shift points, its a real mess.

-Mike

Again - auto-box is as common in the USA as a V8 engine (correct me if I'm wrong). Here the auto-boxes are currently on a rise but still the garages which offer service for such trannies don't really know what they're doing. Mostly there is one guy who has worked on such things in US or D and some mechanics who listen to him. Try talking about reprogramming the gearbox and they look at You like at a madman.

 

i know nobody wants to hear this but the ole butt dyno says i picked up a few ponies by ditching the cat and adding a custom dual exhaust with no bends ... m104 responded surprisingly well especially when the VVT kicks in ..

 

What about the low-end torque? How was that affected?

 

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The first time you accelerated
it looked like you almost fell out of the seat

 

Can you post the vid on youtube?

 

wiill do later today !

 

Revisiting an old thread.

Since my C280 I had a couple other cars now after putting a lot into my 300TE I want to move onto something else.

I have a choice between a 94 E320 and 94 E420. Both the same exterior color as my TE.

I may go with the E320 since it has 40 more HP than my current M103 3.0 and the E420 although in good condition and about 60 more HP than the M104 there is a good price difference.

It's either get the E320 and have some $$$$ left over
or more HP of the E420 and do with less extra cash

But after reading through many threads
I think one point was wrong comparing the M119 V8s against any V8 BMW put out.

After owning one 93 400E and also test driving another 93 400E and 500SL from customers
I'd say my 93 740iL was a much better performer and transmission.

Although the SL of course has more HP I think it's restricted by it's ASR gear box
My 740iL M60 4.0 liter V8 vs my 93 400E M119 4.2 liter V8 there was no comparison.
The smaller 4.0 bimmer engine not only cranked out more HP 282 vs M119 (.2 larger) 275 HP
additionally t
he 740iL had a 5 speed gear box and a 4 speed sport mode
vs the 400E sluggish 4 speed that defaults to 2nd gear at a stop unless manually selected to 1st
and
the COP or coil over plug design vs the M119 dual c(r)ap n rotor design

But the point I brought up comparing the two was that there is just more "sportier" models to choose from, (from the late 80s to mid 90s.
More manual gear box options, easier dif swaps from other models without worrying about ASR/ASD computer boxes, etc...
and more than enough affordable performance chips you can easily drop in for (at least) an added 10 HP.

And no I'm not comparing M3, M5, AMG, "Hammer", 500E (Porsche built), etc...
I'm talking about the common versions.
I had so much fun modifying my 86 325e with chip, LSD from a 86 635CSi and my 95 525i 5 speed manual with chip was so much fun to drive.
Nothing like cruising in 5th to drop the hammer down in 3rd and pull away from higher HP cars just because of their 4 speed auto gear box.

I just don't get that same feeling, even from a 275 hp 400E420.
Wish they made a 5 or 6 speed manual for those.

Unfortunately my selections are limited since most the BMWs I'm interested in
have been too "beat on" or neglected and the same for most the Mercs.
Though fortunately I have found a few W124s that are acceptable
but still have to drive out of my area to get them.

Needless to say the 3.2 M104 is a good choice
for fuel economy, performance, reliability, and HP.