Does it bench test ok. If not you may need a new one.
If you had start error on the dash it could be a key issue. Do you have a spare?


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When jumping K8 relay jumper goes from terminal 30 to 87 not 85!

Now that you have starter out using set of jumper cables connect negative to starter body, positive to big lug. Jump from big lug to smaller lug (terminal 50). Starter should kick out bendix and spin. Make sure you are hanging on to it.

 

Bench test procedure.

 

That is what mine looked like and the copper braid can no longer conduct ground for the motor, it basically turned to dust when I touched it.

New starter fixed the problem.

YMMV perform troubleshooting before replacing the starter, they are about $250 bucks so good to be sure it's bad.


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Hey guys I'm the original poster, using the account on my iPad. Thanks for all the advice!
So here's what I did, I couldnt find my multimeter so I took it to autozone to have the starter bench tested since its 1/4 mile down the road from me and free, and it passed.
Now what are my other options?

To matt, no I do not have a spare. I bought the truck 10 months ago with just the one key that I have.
However, the remote locking on the truck never worked. I had to manually unlock it ever since I got it. The remote works, I synced it a bunch of times, turn to pos 2, hold lock button, press unlock button 5 times then release both, and push lock or unlock, and the locks actuate because I hear them, but thats it. The remote buttons dont do anything after that. Also, the central locking/unlocking works however, my driver front door and rear hatch locks do not work. I've manually opening my driver side door with the key and unlocking the doors via center console button, and reach behind the back seat with a really long screwdriver to unlock the rear hatch. So driver front and rear hatch are both manual lock/unlock and the rest lock/unlock via console button.

To Whittek, sorry I meant 87. Its the one right below 30. I made jumper using male terminals and like I said, I heard one click the first time but nothing after that.

I watched the guy hook it up and bench test it and I heard it crank. A big green PASS lit up his screen after and he said it passed. I'm stumped, what should I do next? If it was the key, what would I do? Ignition switch?

Thanks guys I really appreciate all your help and advice

 

To Whittek, sorry I meant 87. Its the one right below 30. I made jumper using male terminals and like I said, I heard one click the first time but nothing after that.

Terminal 87 is oriented perpendicularly on terminal 30 - at 90 degrees (cross). Terminal 30, 85 and 86 are oriented parallel.

In principle, I prefer not to jump at the relay socket contacts, as the sparks that may be generated do damage to the socket contacts. If you did it a number of times now, or before, here you are, you might have a problem right there.

If you test the solenoid/starter with a jumper, you should do it right at the solenoid contacts.

You know the consumer at the end of the circuit is good - the solenoid, which activates the starter.

You should check wires continuity/shorts with a DVOM from the solenoid upstream to the relay, and from the relay further up all the way to the ignition switch. You don't need to use/apply electrical power, if you have a DVOM - the DVOM will show you if the wires/contacts are good or not. Of course make sure you have a good relay - apply 12V at 85 and 86, and listen for click, and measure with DVOM a short/close at 30 and 87.

Recently I had a very similar problem on my other car, and all elements tested fine - relay, clutch switch - all the way up to, but except the ignition switch. Removed the ignition switch, which has 3 internal switches, and all the switches looked/tested fine, when tested off-line, but when installed, the turning angle was no longer sufficiently wide to engage the solenoid/started electrical switch - too much play due to wear. New ignition switch fixed the problem right away.

mercbentz

 

Clean connections apply dab of anti seize on starter gear and reinstall it. Check battery then try jumping K8 again.

You need to find your volt meter.:smile

 

I found my multimeter. Gonna go out and do some readings today. Will post back with results.

Whittek, do I need a special kind of anti seize? Thought i read a post somewhere about someone saying you needed a specific type for the starter which MB sells.

Thanks merc for your input. Those diagrams would be super helpful and very appreciated. Gonna clean up the starter contacts a bit and double check the battery posts again and try and get some readings.

 

I found my multimeter. Gonna go out and do some readings today. Will post back with results.

Whittek, do I need a special kind of anti seize? Thought i read a post somewhere about someone saying you needed a specific type for the starter which MB sells.

Any nickel or copper based anti seize. Good thing MB does not make and sell gasoline.:wink

 

I your original post you said it had a start error, does it still have that message on the dash when you try and start it?


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Alright so i went around testing connections prior to seeing that merc posted some schematics. I tested continuity from the battery neg terminal to the grounding area above the battery on the chassis then to engine block where the starter fits in to and all checkd out. Didnt see where else those ground connections went to from the post but it split in to two brown smaller guage wires. I tested for voltage from the battey to the big starter wire and i got 12v there.

Went back and bench tested the starter myself per 43sqd's youtube post and was getting a good crank with around 1-1.5 voltage drop when jumping the starter.

Have not gotten the anti seize and reinstalled starter yet to give it another crank but will do over the weekend per Whitteks advice.

Mattml430, I have not been able to replicate the start error again like my wife said she saw but I guess her starting my car a bunch of times may have killed the battery so I'm getting another one over the weekend. However, when the issue first happened, I bought a brand new battery and put in but got the same result as my original battery so I assumed it wasnt a battery problem and took the new battery back. Guess I'm gonna have to go back and get that battery.

Thanks for the diagrams Merc. Gonna look them over tonight

 

While you at it check connection at the back of alternator. Take it apart, clean, apply dab of dielectric grease.

What size battery are you using. One in pictures looks small. ML needs 49 BCI or H8.

 

Just an update, I cleaned everything, and reinstalled starter. Cleaned and treated alternator post terminals per whitteks advice, cleaned and treated the ground points on the vehicle. The battery installed is an H8, i was using a different battery to jump the starter.
The next thing to test would be the ignition switch but I also ordered a spare key. I needed one anyway since I only had that one key and was tired of "breaking" into my car everytime my wife locked the keys in the truck. Key will be in next week so will try that out to.

Matt, There was no start error on the dash since I've been trying but my wife said she seen it one time flash on the dash. What do you think that means?

 

Does starter turn engine in attempt to start it?

 

Can be an issue with the Drive authorisation system (DAS) not recognising the key chip. If it hasn’t come up again and your getting a new key don’t worry to much about it at this stage.


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DAS?

Can be an issue with the Drive authorisation system (DAS) not recognising the key chip. If it hasn’t come up again and your getting a new key don’t worry to much about it at this stage.

What can I do if it is the DAS?

 

Ok Matt. So even though the red LED blinked once when I turned the ignition to position 2 you still think the DAS could be the problem? And if so a new key would solve it?

 

If the fault really is with the DAS then a new key will not be the cure.

 

Got new key

Hey guys so I picked up the key yesterday, just tried to start the car today and it worked! Cranked up and started like there wasnt even a problem so I let her run for awhile while I cleaned the engine bay a bit and put everything back in order, I had a new H8 battery installed too. Anyway after letting her run for about 5mins or so I shut it off and tried to restart it but she didnt even crank???? Tried a couple more times but nothing, no crank. The LED does its one blink at key position 2 with new key but no start. I went back checked the connections, continuity checked some lines, connections were fine, swapped the K8 relay with the horn relay but nothing. I am stumped!
Why would it start up fine once and then not anymore?!?!?


Witek, the starter does not even crank. It didn't before I got the new key and doesn't now after starting the one time.

Noodles, what would I have to do test if the DAS is the culprit? I thought that the one LED blink at key position 2 was verification that the DAS was giving the OK to start. Am I wrong on this?

Again I appreciate all your guys great advice. Thanks again

 

This post would be a great read for you, http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w163-m-class/2848818-ml-430-another-no-start-issue.html
There is detail on turn and hold key to position 3 while probing white wire #50 on back of the ignition switch.

 

Thanks for that read Carl. I'll do that later today.

There are a few things that I've noticed yesterday that I haven't noticed since starting to troubleshoot this problem.

First, after having the new battery installed and getting the car to crank and start that one time only with the new key, I jumped the K8 relay cavity in the fuse box to test the connections and to my surprise it cranked. It did not when I first started to troubleshoot this problem but I think it had to do with the weak original battery.

Second, key positions on the ignition. Now my understanding is in key poition 1, the ABS and the SRS lights come on in the dash. In key position 2, all the rest of the lights come on. So when I have the key in position 1, the LED has a steady blink until I turn it off or to position 2. When I turn the key from off or position 0, all the way to position 2 in one smooth motion, the LED will blink only once. But if I turn it to position 1 first and leave for a few blinks, then turn it to position 2, the LED will not blink. I don't kno if this means anything but thought I'd mention it.

Another thing is the radio. I never knew that by pushing the power button on the radio when the car is off can turn on the radio! My wife figured it out yesterday messing with it. Since of course the battery was disconnected we had to put the code in, so she did and the radio worked! The weird thing is ever since I bought this car, the radio did not work. I mean it was on, you could select stations and go thru the functions but no sound would play. I went thru the whole fiber optic loop using the instructions from another post trying diagnose that issue but the components were communicating so I planned on just upgrading the system eventually. Anyway over the course of about 10 months I must've jiggled and pressed that power button on purpose and on accident dozens of time but never did the radio come on. So is this normal? Is it suppose to come on even though the car is off?

Don't know if any of this is relevant to my problem or not but just thought I'd share, however the key position thing is what worries me. I hope that by turning the key from off directly to position 2 in one motion and watching the LED blink once is the right way to check it and that by turning to position 1 first and then to 2 and observing no blink, is not.

 

try this: put the key in the "run" position, then jump the starter (preferably with a starter jump switch from autozone) see if it runs then. What I do is connect it to the Starter solenoid, then go straight to a positive/hot source. that will tell you whether the 3# position is bad.

p.s. there is a big purple wire on the K40 module (usually contains starter relay), you can strip some of the insulation off of it instead of connecting straight to the starter solenoid.

 

Thanks for that tip. I did try to jump the starter yesterday but from the fuse box. Told my wife to turn the key to try and start it while I jumped the starter but nothing

Your problem seems to be the Position #3 of the Ignition Switch.

It is likely that the worn plastic casing and internal components of the Ignition Switch have too much slack/play, and the rotation angle into Position #3 does not go far enough - from too much slack - to engage the Solenoid/Starter sub-switch (explanation: the Ignition Switch has 3 sub-switches in it, one of which is the Solenoid/Starter sub-switch).

mercbentz

Thanks Merc gonna work on that today. Was trynna look up instructions on how to get it off, is it fairly easy? I got the 2 panels off so I can see the wires on the back of the switch and the black box on top of the cylinder that has wires to the transponder ring.

 

Was able to disconnect the wire harness from in back of the switch, tried to probe for voltage on the white wire in the harness (used a jumper wire but it kept coming lose, kinda tight back there) but got no voltage when turning key to position 3. Only wire that was hot was the big red wire in the middle of the harness. Is it the switch? How do I get that sucker off if so?

BTW I had the instrument cluster unplugged when I tested for voltage

 

Sorry, I missed this post.

If you've disconnected the wires connector from the switch, then you will not have 12V at the white wire. The red wire(30) brings 12V to the switch, and the switch makes it go to the (50)white, (15)pink wires, etc...

With the wires disconnected, you need to check DVOM continuity/short between tabs/contacts on the switch - as mentioned previously 15-30, and 50-30. Use a mirror to see the contact numbers. See bellow

mercbenz

 

Been searching the forums and web on how to remove the ignition switch (p/n 1685451004). I'm assuming it's in the housing the harness was attached to but how do I get it out of there? Seems like the whole thing is in one piece. I got the cluster and surrounding panels removed, very tight in there but managed to remove the wire harness and that's where I'm at ATM. Help please...???

Weird that there's no write up for this procedure unless I'm using the wrong terminology to search but if there isn't I think I'll do it.

 

Is this the V6 or I6 engine?

 

Don't remove the ign. switch.

If you want to bypass the ign. switch, follow this procedure:

1. key out of ign.

2. fashion 6 " piece of 10 gauge jumper wire with spade terminals attached.

3. remove starter relay K8.

4. insert one end of jumper wire in slot 30 and the other end in slot 87.

If the eng. cranks, it is not the starter and the problem is elsewhere.

If the eng. does not crank, it is wiring to the starter or the starter itself.

In any event, make sure the jumper wire touches the silver contacts at the fuse box and immediately remove the jumper wire.

 

Thanks 43sqd. I followed your post about doing this the first time I had this problem and it didnt crank. This was about 2 weeks ago. So I took the starter out and had that bench tested and it was fine. Cleaned up the terminals on starter, alternator, battery terminals, ground points and tested for continuity and everything was good. Put it back in and nothing.
Fast forward 2 weeks later, on Monday my new key came in. I had the battery changed at this time since my original was weak and wouldnt hold a charge, I put the new key in and it started right up as if there wasnt any problem! I let it run for about 5 mins as I cleaned up and got ready to take the truck to the gas station, I get back in the truck and turned the key off, then back on to check it, and it didnt even crank! Was like it was again the first time, no crank no nothing. This was Tuesday. So I did continuity tests again and I jumped the starter at the relay, and it did crank this time.
If not the ign switch, what do you think it is?

 

Benzito808

Overwhelming help!!! which makes the Forum great.

Based on info from the thread I understand that the Solenoid/Starter, Battery(new), Relay K8, and wiring are all OK, so will leave them aside.

Indications are that the AAM and ME-SFI and the Key and Ignition Switch do their job, but you’re not 100% sure - you have LED blink, and sometimes engine start/starter-crank, but sometimes the starter-crank does not happen.

Here are a few suggestions, which if they are repeats, they're just organized as a step by step logical flow, with STOP HERE exits:

I started with the Ignition Switch as that is suspect #1, but the order can be changed, and all tests can be done, regardless of how many show failure or success.

A. Check/Test Ignition Switch Key in Position 2 (and Position 3) at terminal 15 of the switch (pink wire) (or at contact 1 at AAM N10)- DVOM 12 V to the ground (between terminal 15 and ground).

Repeat tests, results should be steady.

Repeat test with Key in Position 3.

Or (alternatively), test DVOM continuity/short between terminal 15 and terminal 30 (red wire) with Key in Position 2 and 3 - this test can be done with your choice:
a. the Ignition Switch connector disconnected, and/or
b. the Ignition Switch removed.

If test fails then STOP HERE – Ignition Switch Position 2 and/or Position 3 is a problem.

If OK:

B. Check/Test Ignition Switch Key in Position 3 at terminal 50 of the switch (white wire) (or contact 40 at ME_SFI N3/10) - DVOM 12V to the ground (between terminal 50 and ground). Repeat tests, results should be steady.

Or (alternatively), test DVOM continuity/short between terminal 50 and terminal 30 (red wire) - this test can be done with your choice of the Ignition Switch connector disconnected, and/or the Ignition Switch removed.

If test fails then STOP HERE – Ignition Switch Position 3 is a problem.

If OK:

C. Test AAM, including the Key and Drive Authorization mechanism with Key in Position 2 and Position 3 - DVOM 12 V between contact 85 and 86 at the K12 Relay socket - with K12 removed.

If test fails, then STOP HERE – do further testing/troubleshooting on AAM and Key

If OK:

D. Test/Check Relay K12 - Relay K8 function depends on K12.

If test fails, replace relay.

If OK:

E. Test ME-SFI ignition key/starter-crank start function - DVOM 12V between socket contact 85 and 86 of the K8 Relay - with K8 removed.

If test fails, then STOP HERE – need to focus on the AAM communication to ME-SFI or ME-SFI itself.

Lastly a WARNING about sparks during short duration/temporary Power (12V) Jumping:
a. when done on bolts/nuts holding connectors eye-tabs, the spark damage is not significant, and has no real effects.
b. when jumping on connector contacts, or socket contacts, as sparks are metal melting high temperature, and as they may do damaging of the contacts, which may create an additional problem, you need be very careful, and make contact very quickly, so to avoid sparks, if possible.

mercbentz

 

Mercbentz...
I totally agree, this is a great forum! And what makes this a great forum is awesome people that contribute their time and knowledge to helping others out. Thank you all!!!

And yes you are right on your summation of my problem. Thank you for taking the time to reread thru my thread and for writing up that step by step guideline.

So the battery is good, starter is good (just jumped the k8 relay again), got a new key that started the car up just fine and it ran for over 5mins until I turned it off and tried to restart it and got nothing. So now I'm back to square one with a new key. I just don't get why it started like there was nothing wrong with car that very first time with the new key and now it's back to a no crank no start again...

If it was the AAM or DAS would it have even started with the new key?

The LED does blink for sure. It blinks once when I turn it to pos 2 in one smooth motion and it will keep blinking if I turn it to pos 1 and leave it there. It does it for my original and new key.

When I tried looking into removing the switch, I couldn't even locate it. I know the ign wire harness connects into it but have no idea how to remove or replace it if it is the switch. I don't think I have to remove the tumbler to access it...or do I???

I'll go thru that list again and see what happens.
Much appreciated guys!!! Thanks

 

If it was the AAM or DAS would it have even started with the new key?

The LED does blink for sure. It blinks once when I turn it to pos 2 in one smooth motion and it will keep blinking if I turn it to pos 1 and leave it there. It does it for my original and new key.

The tests C. and E. in my previous post will show/confirm if the Key, AAM, and ME-SFI work well in regards to engine start (starter cranking), and thus tell you if they can be removed from the suspects list.

When I tried looking into removing the switch, I couldn't even locate it. I know the ign wire harness connects into it but have no idea how to remove or replace it if it is the switch. I don't think I have to remove the tumbler to access it...or do I???

I'll go thru that list again and see what happens.
Much appreciated guys!!! Thanks

Based on the photo on your previous post, it looks like you've removed the cover under dash board instrument panel, and covers around steering column, so you're almost there. Good job!

The switch/lock assembly/housing is sort of L shaped placed horizontally - your photo shows it - with the top of the L towards the fire wall. Assuming the L in normal position, the switch is at the L top, right under the connector, which is at the very top of the L.

To remove the connector you just push two tabs, and pull out.
That will give you access to the switch contacts/tabs - they're numbered 15, 50, 30, etc...

If you adjust the steering column angle, you may be able to get enough space to work, and replace the switch if needed, without removing the assembly from the column.

For DVOM continuity testing between terminal 15 and 30 (Position 2 and 3), respectively 50 and 30 (Position 3) leave the switch inside the assembly, so that you could rotate to Position 2 or 3 using the Ignition Key.

If Position 3 is the problem, which I suspect it is - basically terminal 50 not providing 12V - then you need to replace the switch - also act on two tabs, to pull out the switch.

Make sure you mark the switch alignment in the housing. Don't touch or remove anything further inside the Lock assembly/housing. When you install back the switch or a new switch, you need to make sure alignment is correct.

Out of curiosity, I would repeat the test with the switch removed.

It is likely that the test with switch removed will not fail - you need to use a screw driver to turn the switch to Position 2 and 3 - which will show that it is the plastic components wear allowing too much slack/play, and consequently, the turning angle to Position 3 not being sufficiently wide to bring the internal contact from terminal 30 and terminal 50 to a touch.

mercbentz

 

First picture shows 2 tabs
Second ignition column

 

One more photo bellow.

Also you could use some female spade connector probes.

mercbentz