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classic!!

I personally think this thread is simply the BEST fair and accurate and descriptive and illuminating comparo of these three vehicles I have ever seen in my life on the web..

Authoritave conclusions and opinions from Mercedes Benz enthusiasts that truly know what they are talking about. So good that they mostly don't even contradict one another for the most part.


What we have here would make a wonderful article in Mercedes Enthusiast magazine, or even CAR, Road and Track, Automobile, or Car and Driver ("Car and Drivel" as they say in th UK) :D

Or a "sticky" on here. " To buy a 560SEC, 500E/E500, or W210 E55 AMG?"
 
Discussion starter · #22 · (Edited)
Your basic issues with a 500E/E500 are going to be the upper wiring harness (as is well known), and it's also a good idea to replace the lower wiring harness as well. The upper wiring harness is around $600-700 and replacement can be accomplished in around 2-4 hours' labor as a DIY job in the driveway.

Your climate control evaporator (as with most all W124s) is also a weak point -- and one that costs several thousand dollars to replace. The dashboard must be totally dismantled to replace this unit.

Most all M119s from the late 1992/early 1993 period had plastic cam oiler tubes. The ends of these often blow out, which diverts the oil stream away from where the oil is supposed to go. These tubes have to be replaced when you near ticking underhood. Generally, this comes at mileage intervals greater than 125-150K. The earlier cars had metal tubes which of course are much more durable, but unfortunately these are no longer available. You can get aluminum tubes from one aftermarket vendor, but they are not cheap.

These cars have a lot of HP and torque, and thus the hydraulic motor mounts, and other chassis rubber, must be replaced regularly. Motor mounts should be done at each 75-80K interval to ensure they are correct and fresh; transmission mount should also be done at the same time. You often see things like ball joints, sway bar mounts, drag link, steering shock, subframe mounts and other "chassis rubber" type items wear out every 75-100K miles. Of course, this would be every 5-10 years for most drivers, so it's not all that common. There are four small bushings at the top of the rear struts that also get compressed over the years, and must be replaced I would say at every 100K interval.

The rear SLS (self-leveling) system is pretty durable; the fluid must be kept clean and changed every couple or three years. Just like brake fluid.


The 500E/E500 cars also do occasionally go through EZL modules, which doesn't seem to be a problem with the 560s which have a similar EZL module. EZLs for the 500E/E500 tend to run from $2,600-3,200 at MB retail prices, though you can get them on the aftermarket from $500-1200 if you can find one used. They are difficult to find and are MUCH more expensive used than 560/420 EZL modules.
Awesome reply Gerry! Very detailed and superbly written, I appreciate the detail and the clarity.

Couple of questions that came to mind from your reply:
1) You did not mention the cost and time to replace the lower wiring harness?

2) How do you know (tell tale sign) when the A\C condensor is on its last legs?

3) How do you troubleshoot the EZL module and if one goes south...the best place to get a working one (Other than the stealership?)..even if used? Is there a Benz dismantler that specifically specializes in the W124 500Es?

4) How simple is it to replace the cam oilers?..Pull a valve cover and bolt off..bolt on affair? I have designed lots of parts in AutoCAD and can get pretty much can have anything (within reason) CNC'd..so not worried about OEM or sourcing parts here.

5) Can you bleed the SLS suspension like any regular hydraulic system for the fluid replacement?

Are the M119 motors solid to 200K with frequent oil changes and diligent ownership \ care?

How long have you owned your car, have you spent alot ($$) in ownership over that time? Great videos thank-you for sharing!!! Also are there any local MB owners GTG in the Houston area?

I personally think this thread is simply the BEST fair and accurate and descriptive and illuminating comparo of these three vehicles I have ever seen in my life on the web..

Authoritave conclusions and opinions from Mercedes Benz enthusiasts that truly know what they are talking about. So good that they mostly don't even contradict one another for the most part.

What we have here would make a wonderful article in Mercedes Enthusiast magazine, or even CAR, Road and Track, Automobile, or Car and Driver ("Car and Drivel" as they say in th UK) :D

Or a "sticky" on here. " To buy a 560SEC, 500E/E500, or W210 E55 AMG?"
I agree!!!! Great thread, thanks to all for chiming in.

On the W210 E55 I did hear that this car has rust issues and was built at a time that Mercedes quality hit rock bottom, even Jeremy Clarkson loves to poke fun at them for cars produced during this fragile era.

While I have never driven a W210 E55 it is a proper AMG and produced as a fully engineered product and not a "wheels, styling and floor mats" type of model. Everything on the car is completely different from their lesser brethren even compared to the E430 from the seats, standard interior features, suspension, brakes, engine etc etc....granted it was not a hand built car moved around on dollys..those days are for the most part done at Mercedes, its all about production. I love the look of them as well, but granted a lowered W124 500E on Monoblocks or Carlssons and a W126 SEC makes me more giddy from visual appeal.

One car I should have thrown into the mix, that just came to mind...(wait for it..drum roll)....190E 2.3-16....Great looks, flared fenders, 16in wheels, proper 5speed, avail with LSD, great seats (although smallish interior)..Cossie engine?
Yasin
 
Your wife must hate you.


*IF* you even HAVE one. :D


lol
Oh, I do. And she's really a co-conspirator; I never had such a fleet till we got married.

Community property *does* cut both ways; I'd be amiss if I didn't admit that she does, functionally, have quite a stake in this rogues' gallery of vehicles. As regards typical use,

The 300TD, Audi, and BMW R60/6 are mine, and the Scion xA, 380SL, and Vespa P200E are hers.

Spent Saturday afternoon together dickering for the 380SL then heading up to northern AZ to enjoy the cool pines, and pick up a set of Pentas, in the wagon. They're out there, fellas, and I mean that in both senses of the statement!
 
One car I should have thrown into the mix, that just came to mind...(wait for it..drum roll)....190E 2.3-16....Great looks, flared fenders, 16in wheels, proper 5speed, avail with LSD, great seats (although smallish interior)..Cossie engine?
Yasin
Pass.

The majority of the 190E's have been beaten on by wannabe boy racers. If you do manage to find a good low mileage example that fits in your budget, chances are you'll be disappointed by the amount of room available to you. Unless you're short. If you're under, say, 6', you'll be happy. I'm around 6'4" and I HATE the amount of room I'm left with. The clutches in the LSD will need to be replaced ($$) as they wear away and won't allow the LSD to engage properly. When it works, the LSD works like a zinger. The dogleg gearbox can handle boat loads of power, but for everyday driving, the shift pattern is awkward.
Other than it's size and tendency to be owned by boy racers (most learn how to drive stick shift in these cars, careful with those transmissions), the 190E is a perfect little track car. It's tail happy, it's relatively quick (far slower than a 500E) and it's decent looking. The 190E comes with 15" wheels no matter which platform it comes on. 16" wheels on a 190E are aftermarket.
Overall, if you want a small car that was designed to be a little track car, the 190E would be for you.
 
Agree that most 2.3-16s have been driven hard and put away wet, often by (as has been said) boy racers. There are a few nice ones out there that have been enthusiast/collector owned and not been beaten to death, but you have to be patient to find one. A 500E/E500 is a far better deal in terms of power, speed, build quality, exclusivity, and overall collectibility.

Although, even with the 500E/E500, there are more and more out there that also have been driven hard & put away wet. 75% of the E500Es out there have at least $10,000 in deferred maintenance on them, as well. It's the reason that (if you are serious about owning one) you start at $15K and realistically start at more like $20K for one that has at least received regular, scheduled maintenance.

If you pay $8-10K for an E500E, you are looking at $10-15K worth of deferred maintenance. You can almost guarantee, at that price, one of the following:

- High miles - examples like this start at 175K miles and 200K+ is more common
- Accident car - car has been hit or otherwise damaged, with bodywork replaced. Often, the body/paint repair work is of questionable quality
- Serious maintenance backlog, with some or all of the following needing to be done: suspension bushings, tie rods, drag link, control arm bushings, leaking front and/or rear struts, SLS not serviced, brake system not serviced/needing rotors, wiring harness needing replacement, climate control system needing service/evap replacement, cracked/faded interior wood, driver's seat needing replacement, serious rock dings on frontal & wheel well bodywork; thin paint in areas; sunroof issues; etc.

Cheers,
Gerry
 
Don't forget that the 560SEC has some of the same problems - and chances are those E55's you want were driven even harder..
SLS needing service (if it has it), can't forget about the timing chain/guides, seat wear, cracking wood, climate control not functioning, brakes and the full nine yards.

As I wrote a few posts up, find absolutely THE best example of whatever car you choose for whatever you want to spend. Take the time to test drive each car and see which one suits your needs the most..

Patience is absolute KEY here.
 
The 560SEC is gradually gaining back in value and has been labeled as modern classic.
This is one, if not, the most beautiful coupe from the 80's era.
Till date, few cars have its charisma and presence. Few cars have preserved such powerful elegance over the years.

The 500E is a rare breed. Subtle, simple, yet quite ferocious. Under the family sedan outfit, hides a wild beast. I am constantly on the watch for one of these back in Lebanon.

The E55 is the most capable, powerful, offering sheer driving pleasure. It is also the most technologically advanced, with more computing power, more sensors, eventually more costly maintenance headaches.

This trio would make any MB enthusiast lavish with envy. I guess at this point, it is no longer about making a rational choice – but rather, following your heart.
 
Couple of questions that came to mind from your reply:

1) You did not mention the cost and time to replace the lower wiring harness?
As I remember it, this "upper wiring harness" connects all eight of the injectors, the temperature sensor, the MAF (mass airflow sensor) and the cam adjuster solenoids at the fronts of the cylinder heads.

You can get them for significantly cheaper from an MB parts discounter like www .parts .com The MB part number is 124 543 95 26 (for cars up to end of model year 1992) and 124 440 20 06 (for 1993/1994 model year cars). List price for the earlier cars' harness is $790 and for the later cars is $720. You can order the MB factory part from the aforementioned parts vendor for $542 and $494, respectively. The harness is only available as an MB factory part.

The harness requires about 2-3 hours for a DIYer of only moderate skill, to do in the driveway. Basically you just disconnect the old harness, connector by connector, and thread in the new connections from the new harness as you disconnect the old ones.

2) How do you know (tell tale sign) when the A\C condensor is on its last legs?
Like with any W124, you don't have any A/C. And when you recharge it, the refrigerant rapidly leaks out. The evaporator core (factory part) for my 1994 E500 (and other W124 cars from 1990 onward) is 124 830 07 58, with list price $700 and selling price of $483 from the aforementioned vendor. You can get them on the aftermarket, but they are generally of lesser quality (and also lesser cost, ranging from $200-300). Best to go factory.

3) How do you troubleshoot the EZL module and if one goes south...the best place to get a working one (Other than the stealership?)..even if used? Is there a Benz dismantler that specifically specializes in the W124 500Es?
You don't troubleshoot an EZL module. It troubleshoots you! meaning, you will be in trouble and want to shoot yourself (or your car) when the EZL dies.

Generally, a bad EZL is evidenced by a total "no-go" condition of the car. It won't start. Other times, a bad EZL will kill one bank of the engine, but allow the other bank of 4 cylinders to run. This is what happened to my own EZL back in January of 2009 -- one cylinder bank was dead. I was able to drive the car the 15 miles to my mechanic, and after diagnosing that the coil wasn't the problem, the only other logical explanation as to why a spark wasn't being provided to the entire engine, was the EZL. Luckily, I had just a couple of weeks before paid $800 for a used EZL module, so was able to drop that in and the problem was solved.

Like I said, the EZL is only available from MB, and is one of the single most expensive individual parts on the car. Currently, the MB part number for the EZL is 015 545 61 32 and the list price is $2,750. You can get it from the aforementioned vendor for $1,898. Do be happy though -- the price of the EZL fluctuates, and not that long ago it was list priced at over $3,200. So it's come down a bit in price, thankfully.

The thing to remember with the 500E/E500 EZL modules is that they were made by both Bosch, and Siemens. Generally speaking, the Siemens units seem to be better made and are preferable if you have to get a used unit. That is, if possible. Used units can be difficult to find, so often beggars can't be choosers.

The other thing, is that when you replace an EZL (just as with the 560/420 W126 cars), you MUST slather a layer of heat-sink paste between the bottom of the EZL module and the inner fender of the car, to properly conduct the heat. Otherwise you will burn out your EZL and need a new one. You can get this paste at Radio Shack or any electronics supply shop.

4) How simple is it to replace the cam oilers?..Pull a valve cover and bolt off..bolt on affair? I have designed lots of parts in AutoCAD and can get pretty much can have anything (within reason) CNC'd..so not worried about OEM or sourcing parts here.
The cam oilers aren't a difficult job to do. Pull the cam covers off, and you have to remove the cam bearing caps, one by one. These cam bearing caps cover the oiler tubes, so you loosen one, replace the oiler tube, then replace the cap and move on to the next one.

There are 16 of them required, which makes the job more tedious than anything else. The part number for the oiler tubes is 119 180 03 66, and they cost $16 each list price, or $11 discounted from the aforementioned vendor.

5) Can you bleed the SLS suspension like any regular hydraulic system for the fluid replacement?
The SLS is maintained in exactly the same way as it is for the 560SEC/SEL cars. It is a nearly identical system, both in form and function, though the accumulators are physically a bit smaller, if I remember correctly. Also, the 500E/E500 accumulators are located inside the spare wheel well in the trunk, rather than underneath the car as they are on the W126.

The hydraulic fluid is the same and the tank is located under the hood. The 500E/E500 doesn't use a separate hydraulic pump on the front of the block like the W126 does; rather it uses a "tandem pump" which is a combination hydraulic and power steering pump. These pumps often leak and require resealing.

I forgot to mention earlier, that one of the "normal" bugaboos for the 500E/E500 is the fact that the power steering gearbox often leaks, particularly at mileage intervals over 100K. This has to be pulled and re-sealed. The re-sealing process isn't a big deal -- MB makes an inexpensive kit to do this, but pulling the box is a real pain in the a$$. It's a labor intensive job, but something again that only needs to be done once every 10-15 years.

Are the M119 motors solid to 200K with frequent oil changes and diligent ownership \ care?
The M119 engines are absolutely bulletproof, even moreso than than the M117s. With regular maintenance and oil changes, it is very easy to get 300 and even 400K miles out of one - that includes both top and bottom end.

How long have you owned your car, have you spent alot ($$) in ownership over that time? Great videos thank-you for sharing!!! Also are there any local MB owners GTG in the Houston area?
I have owned my E500 since September of 2003. I have owned my 560SEC since September of 2002 - so a year longer than the E500. I have spent a lot of maintenance $$$ on both cars in that time simply because I have chosen to take a mechanical "money no object" and highly proactive approach to maintaining my cars, particularly mechanically. I just completed a full top-end rebuild of my 560SEC motor, this past spring, and even with 85 hours of my own labor, the parts and tools bill for this job came to between $2,000 and $2,500, because I chose to replace every bit of engine rubber & plastic I could on the top end of the motor, along with the cam and all rocker arms on the right-side of the engine.

I know of a number of local E500E owners here in the Houston area, and we have gotten together from time to time, although not everyone in one place at the same time. I am hoping to orchestrate something perhaps this fall in terms of getting the 4-5 owners I know locally, together at one time.

Hope this helps.:thumbsup:

Cheers,
Gerry
 
Here is the chapter from a book that details the hand-made nature of the 500E/E500. It includes actual production photos of the 500E/E500 from the Porsche factory floor.

This is from the book "Custom Mercedes-Benz"

I'm also attaching some captures from a video taken INSIDE the Porsche Rossle-Bau factory. It was taken at the very end of the E500 production in early 1995, when Porsche was winding down E500 production and ramping up Audi RS2 production in the same facility. You can see RS2s and E500s alongside one another in a couple of the photos.

Enjoy,
Gerry
 

Attachments

Actually Gerryvz I believe the W210 E55 was the last model hand built in Affalterbach. Of course i'm a little biased in my preference here as I love my 210 E55 but from first hand experience the car is bulletproof. There are some issues with specific examples as some owners completely beat them to hell. Any car will not hold up if proper respect and maintenance is not maintained. When it comes down to it I don't believe the original comparison holds for all these models. I would not recommend anyone buy a 210 E55 priced below 15K. It only sends off red flags in my eyes as well sorted maintained versions should capture closer to the 15k range. I also would only recommend 00-02 model years.

If it were my choice I wouldn't choose :) I'd work my darndest to own all three :D
 
AMG did not ever "hand build" W210 cars on its own premises. They certainly "hand built" engines and drivetrains, but not complete cars.

The W210 was very definitely built on the assembly lines at Sindelfingen. AMG shipped engines and components to Sindelfingen to be put onto cars on the normal production line. AMG did not have the facilities nor room for production of a car such as the E55 AMG -- the production run was just too large.

Furthermore, I have seen more than one example of a W210 E55 AMG in Europe that has been on its' second and third engine due to failure of the original and replacement engines. Furthermore, MB factory folks I've spoken to in Germany who are "in the know" have said (not for public attribution) that certain of these engines had significantly higher failure rates than the M119s and M117s.

Cheers,
Gerry
 
Discussion starter · #33 · (Edited)
The Evo I came with these 8x16 wheels later standard on the early R129 500SL
Exactly!!!

Gerry thanks for the informative post (No. 28) and all the great details you provided and perspection. Also appreciate the pictures and 10-page pdf on the 500E. If there is a Houston GTG, I would love to come out and meet you guys and go for a spin. I was looking for 500Es on my lunch break today on Autotrader and cars.com!

I would like to drive a 16Valver Cossie 190e, just to feel the power, the dog leg 5speed and the handling for comparison and interior fit (I am 6' and 175ish lbs). Their performance to 100mp/h is on par with a 560SEC I believe.

I thought it was cool that Top Gear ran a special section in one of their episodes stating that the 190E Cossie and the VW Corrado were going to be future classics and buy them now, while they are still affordable, as their values will inevitably be on the up and up. There was also another neat Top Gear episode where the guys were racing from Germany to the Polish border on a limited amount of fuel and James May drove a sweet 190E Cossie (Hammond in a E26 M3 and Clarkson in a Sierra Cosworth).

All the US Spec 560SECs I have driven felt lazy \ lethargic off the line but not bad once they got going and able to keep up with traffic well, feels very much like an Auto Porsche 928 (even the S4 / 32Valve cars)..lazy off the line and lacking in bite..maybe my expectations were too high? I think this is were the 500E and E55 would shine immensely.
 
Don't forget ETA's will give you fits along w/ the other 500E issues. About 750$ from Bechmann rebuilt...couple of hours.. You'll want to replace all the breather hoses on top of the engine while you're at it..figure another 150 or so in rubber.

For the $$ you want to spend, I think you'll be better served by a Very nice 560SEC...you could get Lucky and find a "good" 500E for 10K, but luck is a hard commodity to come by!

The 210's just don't do it for me..55 or not..

Now in the price range you are looking, C36's come into play..even the last year 97's w/ the 722.6. Having owned one of these for a while and still having the oppertunity to jump in and fly about (sold it to my cousin) this is a Fun, Capable little car that makes All the right noises and is VERY well balenced...way more so then the 55 or 43.
Granted it's a C class which I'm Eh about, but AMG did a nice job making that car Feel like Something. If there is one for sale in your area you might go check it out.

Jonathan
 
Slight correction with regard to the cars Porsche built after the 500E/E500. Rather than the S2 (an earlier vehicle), they began building the RS2, which is also a much sought after high performance machine. I want one in the worst way.

Image
 
I'd go with the E500E, but (as seen in my signature) I may be slightly biased. Given at $10k budget you may get a nicer W126, as a really clean .036 will run mid-teens (north of $20k will get you a nearly show-quality, fairly low miles example, like the black one currently available in Texas). For $10k you'd have to be very patient and wait for the right deal to come along... they are out there, but it will take time.

The one nice thing about the E55 is that they're rather plentiful, and if it gets wrecked, oh well - no big deal. The 500's were already few in number and the remaining ones are dwindling rapidly (I think Hendy has parted a half-dozen just in the past year, sheesh!). Although the M113 motor is not as robust as the M119, it does have better (more sophisticated) engine management, and you can get a bolt-on blower for it. In stock form the 500 and E55 are very closely matched in a drag race to almost any speed, despite the differences in weight, power, and gearing.

The W126 is seriously old-school... bigger, wider, heavier, relatively outdated suspension technology, etc. Only a widebody with M119 (or 6.0L) would pique my interest much.

As was mentioned before, drive 'em all before making a decision! Better yet, drive at least two of each, in case one happens to have problems, and you're not sure what it's *supposed* to drive like.

:thumbsup:
 
All the US Spec 560SECs I have driven felt lazy \ lethargic off the line but not bad once they got going and able to keep up with traffic well, feels very much like an Auto Porsche 928 (even the S4 / 32Valve cars)..lazy off the line and lacking in bite..maybe my expectations were too high? I think this is were the 500E and E55 would shine immensely.
One easy thing you can do to remedy this, is to do what I did with my 560SEC. Rip out the stock 2.47 LSD rear-end (which was geared by MB mainly for fuel mileage, anyway) and put in a 3.07 -- or at minimum a 2.83 (which is what the E500E has).

I did this swap for less than $1,000 and it made a HUGE difference off the line -- nearly a full second faster in the quarter-mile (bordering on what a stock 500E/E500 runs, which is in the low 14-second range). The downside is that with the 3.07 you are running about 800 RPM higher at speed (say, 80 MPH) than the stock rear end, which increases wear and tear on the motor a bit and can be a bit loud and busy when you're up around 100 MPH and higher. You lose a few MPH at the top end, and you lose about 1-1.5 MPG.

I will say that even with the 3.07 rear end, my car is still achieving the mileage (13 MPG) that it was quoted by MB & the EPA when it was new. So I don't consider that a bad thing. I had to put a compensator box to intercept the speedo signal and adjust it to the correct calibration. This is a $50 part and very easy to hook up, so not a big deal there.

Just a thought. You can also extract additional HP with a 560 easier than you can with a 500E/E500 (excepting nitrous oxide, but this BergWerks nitrous kit pretty much isn't available any longer). Probably easiest to extract more power from the E55 AMG, as GSXR said. However, I'm not a fan of blowers. I'd rather extract the HP through natural means if possible. With a 560, you can get 25-30 HP just by putting headers/Euro exhaust manifolds on the car with a free-flow exhaust system, and there is even more power to be tapped if you want to throw bucks at it.

Plus, hell, it's fun working on the 126 !!

Cheers,
Gerry
 
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