Diesel vs. gas debate

I'm still debating between the gasser and BT. I like the novelty of diesel but the reviews don't look that favorable. They all say the throttle response feels sluggish because the engine is 500lbs heavier. Is it really worth it for a mere 3mpg improvement in mileage especially on a 3 year lease? The monthly is about the same for both models give or take. Test driving one will be next to impossible because the BT is rare as hen's teeth. Any thoughts? Thanks!

Yes, I went through this debate, myself. You don't list where you are (add to your profile), as this makes a difference - diesel fuel in Canada is significantly cheaper than in the US. In my area diesel is more than premium in the Winter, and near or slightly less in the Summer.

I started out with a diesel order, but switched to gas based on my own criteria. I did drive both.

- $1,500 additional cost for diesel
- Diesel fuel expensive as premium or more in my area; might ammortize in 50-60k miles
- Only about half of stations in urban areas carry diesel
- Diesel fuel quality more variable than gas
- Maintenance cost slightly more for diesel (DEF + fuel filters)
- BlueTEC weighs 287 lbs more than gas version
- Despite being well-controlled, diesel is slightly noisier and smellier
- Throttle characteristics more relaxed (gas feels livelier)
- Diesel not as environmentally advantageous over gas as I thought (per EPA)
- I don't tow heavy loads

On the other side of the coin, the diesel's range is attractive. If I were doing mostly interstate driving, or heavy towing, I'd go with the diesel for sure, but most of ours is urban/suburban.

 

I'm biased towards the diesel. It is super quiet and pulls like hell. The gas and diesel are both the same 0-60. Yes the diesel is more coin but I feel it is worth it. I purchased my ML and am looking at at least 7 years till I get a new one.

Bottom line is you can't loose either way. Its just a personal preference.

 

I tend to agree with Greg and I made the same decision - gas. My check list was virtually the same as Greg's and the gas version came out on top and they tell me it will be in before the end of the month. Having said that, I did make an offer on a BlueTec initially because it had everything I wanted and was sitting right there on the dealer's lot. There was a deposit on it made by someone who was on the fence about purchasing it and they told him to make a decision - he bought it. The diesel intrigued me (but nothing more) and I live where winters are not cold so I thought I would try it - from what I've heard, diesel engines do better where it is warm.

I do little highway driving, only average about 8,000 miles per year and I tow nothing (I don't even have a hitch). Diesel motors shine when soaking up huge junks of highway miles and towing, and because of the torque rating any towing will seem effortless in comparison to the gas version, even though they are rated the same (7200 lbs.). If I did a lot of driving and towed I would probably insist on the diesel. Also, the mpg advantage of the BlueTec over the gas version is not as significant as I think it should be and is easily offset where I live due to the higher cost of diesel fuel vs gasoline.

 

I agree with Greg and what others are saying. I first thought Bluetech was the way to go until I went and drove all of them. Unexpectedly, I ended up going with the ML550...the other extreme. It just performed better.

Also, while the Bluetech's gas mileage is attractive, it hesitated too much and was too noisy...sounded like a delivery truck rather than a luxury vehicle. And since I don't drive a lot, the gas cost factor really is not enough to overcome the lesser of performance in both the gas and diesel ML350.

One thing interesting to note, however: If you download the 'My MBFS' app from the Apple store (maybe there is an Android version), and run the payment estimator, you'll notice an advantage the Bluetech has in terms of potential resale value.

Do Balloon financing with no money down and you'll see that MB gives the BlueTech a much higher residual value over 60 months than the regular gas version: $24,655 vs. $18,450, even though the diesel starts out only $1,500 more.

So, while it may cost an extra $1,500 to buy, MB thinks it will be worth $6,205 more at the end of 60 months...even more than the ML550 at $19,878, which starts out $7,100 more.

This factor seems to what makes leasing a Bluetech cost less at $636 per month over 60 months vs. $694 for the gas version. However, if you finance it normally of 60 months (nothing down at 3% APR), your monthly payments for the BlueTech will be higher ($923 vs $896) because it starts off higher.

Assuming this MB Finance calculator is correct in all of this, including being correct in the residual values, the BlueTech is likely to be worth much more in terms of resale value than either alternative. This factor may be worth weighing into the equation if 'preservation of equity' is important to you.

It all makes me wonder, though, what about the BlueTech that makes MB Finance believe that the vehicle's value is going to be preserved so much over time, especially in contrast to the ML550. Are they putting extra weight on the potential for higher fuel prices and the Bluetech's extra gas mileage capability, and that this could make the vehicle more attractive to buyers in the future?

 

Subjectively there is a different driving experience between the two - the BlueTec diesel with it's torque giving you more of the driving experience of a V8 where the ML "feels" to be accelerating/moving the car thru your lower back/hips - with the V6 you just don't get that particular "power feel".

With the new V6, the ML350 certainly has a lot going for it in other areas - and certainly doesn't lack power or finesse - but simply does not give that torque/V8 feel.

Both a great choices - as to residual being higher on the BlueTec, that is kindof a numbers trick intentional on MB's side to promote the BlueTec, that in real world 4-5 yrs out doesn't really happen in the retail market.

 

Subjectively there is a different driving experience between the two - the BlueTec diesel with it's torque giving you more of the driving experience of a V8 where the ML "feels" to be accelerating/moving the car thru your lower back/hips - with the V6 you just don't get that particular "power feel".

With the new V6, the ML350 certainly has a lot going for it in other areas - and certainly doesn't lack power or finesse - but simply does not give that torque/V8 feel.

Both a great choices - as to residual being higher on the BlueTec, that is kind of a numbers trick intentional on MB's side to promote the BlueTec, that in real world 4-5 yrs out doesn't really happen in the retail market.

Numbers trick by MB to promote BlueTec? I don't get that. Why would they care what you lease or buy?

Certainly, making the straight finance cost higher for the BlueTec is not promoting it.

MB Finance is a separate company than MBUSA. They aren't into promoting any product. In fact, when you call them, they make this pretty clear. They will not even help help you decide finance options, they only process your application and manage your account. But like any finance company, they try to be competitive while reducing their risk. Why would they create exposure for themselves by inflating the residual value?

What am I missing?

 

I really wanted a diesel. We've owned three (2 Mercedes and 1 Audi). But I did the math and the gasoline version made more sense for the kind of driving that we do. If we were going to put more miles on the ML I might have gotten a diesel.

 

- Despite being well-controlled, diesel is slightly noisier and smellier

GregW / Oregon, just curious, what you mean by smellier. The exhaust on my CDI and the new BT I drove have no smell nor can I see anything visible, and the exhaust feels like the clothes dryer vent at my house. And to me the noise level is about the same as a gas, just a different kind of sound. Not challenging, just wondering if I missed something on the short test drives I went on.

Other than that what you posted was the exact same reasons why I didn't wait for the diesel GLK for the wife. For me on the other hand, 2013 may see some changes....

 

GregW / Oregon, just curious, what you mean by smellier. The exhaust on my CDI and the new BT I drove have no smell nor can I see anything visible, and the exhaust feels like the clothes dryer vent at my house. And to me the noise level is about the same as a gas, just a different kind of sound. Not challenging, just wondering if I missed something on the short test drives I went on.

I only had brief test drives in both, so each should make their own evaluation. To me, there was a slight diesel smell to the exhaust, and slightly more clatter from the outside in front of the vehicle, though the DI gas is noisier than the old, too. As I said, all well-controlled and not significant issues on their own.

 

To be clear on residual value - for lease purposes MB purposely inflates the end-lease residual value so they can justify offering lower lease payments on Blue tech over the gassers - as Mercedes's way to help promote sales on Blue Tech.

The fact is the artifically selected lease residual value has no basis in the real world value of a pre-owned ML Blue tech.

The real fact is the market value of a Blue Tech depreciates faster than a ML gasser.]

The Blue Tech V6 from Mercedes is a fantastic diesel engine - but diesel is diesel both to the good and to the not-so-good.

keep the faith !

 

I just test drove both the BT and gasser side by side.

The BT has very bad "turbo lag" or sluggish throttle response. You step on it at a red light. The car just rolls off the line very slowly and nothing really happens for about half a second or so until the power builds up and pulls you forward. Then you feel the torque with the weight transfer to the rear. It's the same during abrupt lane change. The power is not there when you need it. Pretty scary if you ask me.

The gasser has more normal throttle response but you really need to step on it and rev it hard to get the power out.

In summary, I really want to like the BT but I can't. The sluggish throttle response is too much of a trade off for only a slight improvement in mpg.

 

The diesel shiftpoints are at a lower rpm than the gassers, so the sensation might be a bit different in "seat of the pants" driving. The 7.3 sec 0-60 times are identical and reflect this. The gasser (ML550 & ML63 excluded) might be a bit quicker from lets say 0-20, (without a load) but the diesel must make it up somewhere ? As I have noted before, if you plan on using this SUV to tow a good sized load over some distance as we plan to, go with the diesel. I personally like the lower rpms at highway speeds, with or without load, really utilizing the 7 speed auto trans. If not to be used for towing, go with the gasser.02. Also, have you planned on ordering/buying with the hitch option? T

 

If you step on it at the green light, the diesel starts in 2nd cog so it is slower and will not pull 7.3 secs (nor will the petrol).
But if you select 1st, then away you go

 

Have they changed the gearbox?

On the older CDI engines, less torque than the new BT, the diesel always starts in 1st to avoid high torque stress during starts, e.g. protecting the torque converter.

 

Greg, That certainly explains why the 166 feels better to drive over the 164.

2008R320, Starting in 1st may reduce the stress in the torque convertor, but it also dramatically reduces stress within the passenger cabin!

 

it also dramatically reduces stress within the passenger cabin!

:thumbsup:

 

I'm new to Benz and to diesel. Previously drove 2007 Acura MDX and recently got into 2011 Dodge Durango Citadel with 5.7 HEMI (don't ask why... ) Well, Durango being a nice new suv feels just not right for me and family. We do tow our pleasure boat (~5000lb) and ML350 BlueTec was an obvious choice. It is maybe a little slower to start, but after half a second or so it accelerates very nicely (my 5.7 HEMI actually not doing noticeably better job). Those guys in Europe can't be all wrong when choosing diesel over gas. BTW, I really like that difference in sound, feels somewhat stronger...
Anyway, I'm waiting for my Diamond White with Almond Beige at the end of the month. Really happy to join Benz world!

 

I'm new to Benz and to diesel. Previously drove 2007 Acura MDX and recently got into 2011 Dodge Durango Citadel with 5.7 HEMI (don't ask why... ) Well, Durango being a nice new suv feels just not right for me and family. We do tow our pleasure boat (~5000lb) and ML350 BlueTec was an obvious choice. It is maybe a little slower to start, but after half a second or so it accelerates very nicely (my 5.7 HEMI actually not doing noticeably better job). Those guys in Europe can't be all wrong when choosing diesel over gas. BTW, I really like that difference in sound, feels somewhat stronger...
Anyway, I'm waiting for my Diamond White with Almond Beige at the end of the month. Really happy to join Benz world!

Hey, i am planning to buy a 2013-2014 Ml350 Blue- tec. How has your experience been so far? how is the reliability?

 

My 2012 Bluetec starts in first gear every time. I know this because on large hills I downshift with the paddle shifters and sometimes leave it in first and there is no difference in acceleration.

The diesel does have turbo lag on take off, but to me it is less offensive than the electronic throttle lag on some of the gas engines between 2008-2011. The difference is the diesel starts to generate power immediately so you start to move out, but not with much pull until the turbo spools up. You do get used to it.

However, once the turbo is working the response is much better than the gas engine. For example, during highway driving the engine is always ready. It also feels much more alive than my dodge hemi other than off the line.

I also don't agree the values are subsidized on the diesel to make them cheaper. When I was trying to buy a used diesel ML they were much higher priced than the gas versions.

It had to cost more than $1500 over the gas to make the diesel. When you look under the car it has many more parts, some are larger, and most don't look cheap.

I really like not having to stop to get fuel as the range is over 600 miles in local diving. The trip computer normally reads 29 during highway driving and that is without trying to get good mpg. I do think the trip computer may read 1.5 mpg high, but not sure.

My last ML was a V-8 that was much faster overall, but I much prefer driving the diesel. No downshifting is needed most of the time to accelerate which even the 500 had to do.

Now what I dont like. The fuel filter must be replaced every 20k miles and it very expensive at the dealer. The part alone is over $150. The engine oil must be emissions safe and is $10 qt at automotive chains. The dealer will overcharge for DEF by 5 to 10 times. If you go to the dealer for these items I am sure it wipes out any fuel savings.

Even without any savings I would prefer the diesel over the gas engine. Noise is less during higher rpms on the diesel, but louder at slow parking lot speeds so that's really a wash.

 

My 2012 Bluetec starts in first gear every time. I know this because on large hills I downshift with the paddle shifters and sometimes leave it in first and there is no difference in acceleration.

The diesel does have turbo lag on take off, but to me it is less offensive than the electronic throttle lag on some of the gas engines between 2008-2011. The difference is the diesel starts to generate power immediately so you start to move out, but not with much pull until the turbo spools up. You do get used to it.

However, once the turbo is working the response is much better than the gas engine. For example, during highway driving the engine is always ready. It also feels much more alive than my dodge hemi other than off the line.

I also don't agree the values are subsidized on the diesel to make them cheaper. When I was trying to buy a used diesel ML they were much higher priced than the gas versions.





It had to cost more than $1500 over the gas to make the diesel. When you look under the car it has many more parts, some are larger, and most don't look cheap.

I really like not having to stop to get fuel as the range is over 600 miles in local diving. The trip computer normally reads 29 during highway driving and that is without trying to get good mpg. I do think the trip computer may read 1.5 mpg high, but not sure.

My last ML was a V-8 that was much faster overall, but I much prefer driving the diesel. No downshifting is needed most of the time to accelerate which even the 500 had to do.

Now what I dont like. The fuel filter must be replaced every 20k miles and it very expensive at the dealer. The part alone is over $150. The engine oil must be emissions safe and is $10 qt at automotive chains. The dealer will overcharge for DEF by 5 to 10 times. If you go to the dealer for these items I am sure it wipes out any fuel savings.

Even without any savings I would prefer the diesel over the gas engine. Noise is less during higher rpms on the diesel, but louder at slow parking lot speeds so that's really a wash.

Napa auto parts has mobil1 esp on sale in june for 5.79 a qt fuel filter u can get from rock auto for 30 and advanced auto parts has def fluid 10 bucks per 2.5 gal

 

Briefs or boxers...really personal choice.
I am digging on my BT. No issues to date. It has roller coaster torque and the freeway mileage is generous.
But what really spins me is that I am leaving a trail of nitrogen and water.
Doing a small part for the environment but doing it in style.

 

Diesel cleanliness

But what really spins me is that I am leaving a trail of nitrogen and water. Doing a small part for the environment but doing it in style.

You're not driving a hydrogen car! If you'll look at the EPA's comparison of gas to diesel you will see the environmental impact is almost identical. That's one of the reasons I chose NOT to burn oil.

 

Trailered up to Wichita, KS yesterday from Rockport, TX (710 miles) in 98-100 degree outside temp, running at average 70mph. BlueTEC got 17.6 mpg and tach was at approx 2100rpm. Weight of trailer and car isapprox 4700lbs. No problems, towed great with no issues. T

 

Did you use a trailer brake controller?

 

Yes, I would strongly recommend using one if towing more than 1500 lbs. T

 

The resale value of a diesel is higher because that's the way it is. Do an online search for any vehicle that was offered with a comparable gas/diesel, and you will see what I'm getting at. Diesel engines do not work as hard to deliver performance as compared to gas engines, and they run cooler as well. It's common to see a diesel engine last for over 500,000 Km, where your average gas engine might just make 150,000Km.

 

The resale value of a diesel is higher because that's the way it is. Do an online search for any vehicle that was offered with a comparable gas/diesel, and you will see what I'm getting at.

I agree.

Diesel engines do not work as hard to deliver performance as compared to gas engines, and they run cooler as well. It's common to see a diesel engine last for over 500,000 Km, where your average gas engine might just make 150,000Km.

You don't have to go making things up to apologize for diesels.

Diesels work harder than gasoline engines, thats why we like them.

150k Km is less than 100,000 miles. May be that is the average life in Canada but we ******** in Alabama don't believe our pickup trucks are broken in until 300,000 miles.

 

Australian Diesel Market View

Hi,
I have just ordered a new ML350 Bluetec. In Australia, they expect to sell 95% diesels in the ML250/350 range. Partly due to the higher resale value, and lower running costs, and partly because the people buying this vehicle are not looking for tyre burning speed.

After spending a bit of time driving the ML350, we were very impressed with the performance of the diesel. It pulled like a trojan, and we were not that interested in drag races from the lights.

The other thing I noticed, when reading the USA reviews of the vehicle, is the level of features that are offered here in Australia. The American review said all the features he wanted were extra. Is this the case?

The Australian base model ML350 comes with leather dash, leather seats, all the driver safety features (active cruise/lane changes/reversing cameras/etc). The options pack we got - sunroof/keyless entry and powered rear door, is the basic offered over here. We have the active headlights, etc, etc,etc.

The next level up is the 4WD options (ride height, air suspension, etc).

We are really looking forward to the ML delivery next week.....

 

Australian vs. US pricing

Hi,
The other thing I noticed, when reading the USA reviews of the vehicle, is the level of features that are offered here in Australia. The American review said all the features he wanted were extra. Is this the case?

The Australian base model ML350 comes with leather dash, leather seats, all the driver safety features (active cruise/lane changes/reversing cameras/etc). The options pack we got - sunroof/keyless entry and powered rear door, is the basic offered over here. We have the active headlights, etc, etc,etc.

The next level up is the 4WD options (ride height, air suspension, etc).

You get what you pay for (or maybe not). Base price for an ML350BT in Australia is 90,107 AUD (before taxes). In the US, base price is equivalent to 49,103 AUD. You ought to get leather tires!

 

Yes Greg, we also have to pay for those ******** running boards too!

But if you want a bargain, they are offering deals on all the ML250 stock. Seems they can't sell them. :surrender:

We are really looking forward to the ML delivery next week.....

Singomerc, how did you arrange for this? Have you had an order in for some time, or did you take the option off the shelf?

 

But if you want a bargain, they are offering deals on all the ML250 stock. Seems they can't sell them. :surrender:

In the US, only the GLK will come with that powertrain. We like our power.

 

I really believe Mercedes (and others) price according to what they reckon they can get away with.

The W164 diesel cost a premium over the petrol.
The W166 diesel is the same as the petrol in Australia but a premium in the US
And other MB models have a vast difference for the fuel choice.

Then why is a better equipped ML $50k ~ $70k cheaper than a GL?
There's more than just two seats and a few inches in that price. :dunno:

It all boils down to if you want it, you pay.

I did get the best deal I believe was available as I chose some extra goodies and hence I have to wait until late October. So I will be sitting around drooling whislt you will be having the pleasure of a great ride. :thumbsup:

 

Personally - I think it is outrageous that my 1973 220 Diesel gets ~30 mpg and this gets 23 (combined). This car has 3x the horsepower (that's nice but...) it is almost double the cost (adjusted for inflation the 220 D cost $35,145.28 in 2012 dollars) and worse mpg.

In 1973 the 220 gasoline version got somewhere in the upper teens and the 280 got in the lower teens. But the Diesels got double that.

This is after 40 years of development - the gas engines have improved significantly but the diesels have made little progress?

 

Sorry Frank I believe you are confused by the models. The only ML that gets a combined figure near 23 mpg is the ML500. That is a petrol V8 weighing twice your 220D and performance out of its world.

Even the ML350BE petrol claims 32mpg which is better than your diesel.

The ML350BT gets claimed 7.3l/100km (38.6mpg imperial). Again twice the weight of the 220D and its performance is still more than you really need.

To say the diesel engine has made little progress is so far from the truth, that I wonder if you are serious.

The modern diesel is smoother to drive than a 73 petrol, very economical, very powerful, and unbelievably torquey. Unlike your 220D it can pull a caravan at highway speeds, then pull out and accelerate to overtake going uphill.

 

Sorry Frank I believe you are confused by the models. The only ML that gets a combined figure near 23 mpg is the ML500. That is a petrol V8 weighing twice your 220D and performance out of its world.

Even the ML350BE petrol claims 32mpg which is better than your diesel.

According to autoguide.com ML350 BlueTEC "we managed 23 mpg average"

2012 Mercedes-Benz ML350 BlueTEC Review: Car Reviews

My point is not that this is a bad car - only that in the 1970's a Toyota Corolla got in the upper 20's mpg - today a Corolla is a much heavier car, more powerful, more luxurious AND gets in the mid 40's mpg.

 

Hey, I've owned a diesel, an 86 300SDL. Great car. I could cruise at 70+mph all day long with 4 people, luggage and A/C and still get 30mpg. That was an old design and the diesel would smoke unless you always drove it hard to keep it cleaned out. I used (and still use in every car) Mobil 1. I was using 15W-50 Mobil 1, even in the diesel, since it had a great flow rate when cold. Used a block heater in the winter here in Ohio and it would kick off just fine at temps even below 0 deg F. Ended up being totaled, with no one being injured. Fine car.

I would love to have a new(er) Bluetec diesel. Not sure if I want an ML, though, since I have no need for an SUV. So, I will be looking for an '09 or '11 E-class Bluetec. While they list it as getting about 32-35mpg, I've heard people getting over 40mpg on the road. Wow. I'm convinced. However, the one I'd like to get is the C-class Bluetec with the 4-cylinder. In UK gallons, it's supposed to get over 50mpg... combined. In US measurements, I've guessed at maybe 35mpg combined. I just wish MBUSA would sell them here... they'd sell very well with that fuel economy. Oh well... onwards E-class Bluetec!!

Keep the shiny side UP, folks...

 

Hey, I've owned a diesel, an 86 300SDL. Great car. I could cruise at 70+mph all day long with 4 people, luggage and A/C and still get 30mpg. That was an old design and the diesel would smoke unless you always drove it hard to keep it cleaned out.

You are so right, the old diesels were good. Now the new ones are better. The only problem is deciding which one?

And for the record, 50 UKmpg = 45 USmpg.

 

Yeah, my wife & I would love to have a newer one. Those V-6s are supposed to be remarkable engines.

As for the mileage conversion... wow!! I guess I should have run that conversion on my own... THANKS!!

BTW, I almost had an assignment in Australia for the computer consulting company I work for. But, I was offered another one here before the deal was done in your neck of the woods. THAT would have been a LOT of fun. It isn't easy emigrating to Australia, is it... Oh well... we'll want to be close where the kids will someday be living in a few years... CA or Europe. We shall see...

 

It isn't easy emigrating to Australia, is it... Oh well... we'll want to be close where the kids will someday be living in a few years... CA or Europe. We shall see...

If you get to Indonesia, hop on a leaky boat, sail 10 miles to sea, call emergency and the Australian Navy will bring you here all expenses paid.
Alternately there are a range of skills which will get you here PDQ. Top skills are hairdressing and IT.

And once here, we have a good range of diesels available new and used.