[mb230s]

...no matter what AMG does to G-wagen, G55 AMG is still a relatively top-heavy, poor handling, rough riding, fat-ass tank...

The G is anything BUT top-heavy, at least proportionally. The MASSIVE frame, suspension, and axles are quite heavy and keep the center of gravity low. I actually think the G55 and G500 handle quite well.

 

[mb230s]

Ted, you keep on missing the point that G55 requires significantly more money and effort to put on 16" rims. I am sure that Mercedes charges a premium on 4 disc brakes and calipers. You still have not addressed the cooling issues of G55 AMG in prolong off-roading (as pointed out by w5yk).

Do the G55 AMG use the same SPRINGS as G500?? I know the shocks are different...but you make it seem like that is the only change in the suspension between the two models. I would bet that AMG stiffens up the springs as well as the shocks.

The springs are the same, as are the shocks starting in 2005 (or possibly 2004). The sway bars might be thicker but I'm not really sure. I guess I could spend some time in the EPC to figure it out.

 

[mb230s]

Just to chime in - Harald (4x4abc) drove a G55 many months back and was surprised how well the G55 did offroad. Link below - the G55 content is about 1/2 down his post.

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/g-class/1210966-power-engine-options.html?highlight=costa+g55

Silversurfer - wasn't your G55K outfitted w/ a bunch of Brabus mods and outputting significantly higher horsepower?

 

[mb230s]

There are good 18" off road tires out there now. They will actually fit BETTER on the G55 rim b/c the G500 rim is technically too narrow for some of these. It really ticked me off a couple years ago that the 18" tire selection was so poor, but things have changed.

The G55 out of the box (no pun intended) is a great truck on or off road.

BUT - If I was going to risk beating the hell out of something, I'd do it with the
G500. Purely financial. I couldn't bring myself to doing it.

 

[mb230s]

This is getting childish - but let me point out some facts

-There are good 18" tires for off road use that don't rub, mess up anything, and fit very nicely. Sure, maybe the brand of tire you dream about nightly isn't available but there are plenty of options. I have Toyo Open Country A/Ts. They get rave reviews from all sorts of sources and forums - even in many of the off road magazines.

-Technically the G500 rim is too narrow for these tires - including mine. They work fine, but if I saw some G55 rims for sale cheap, I'd probably buy them. For 18" tires the early AMG optional rims or G55 rims are better.

-Harald of www.4x4abc.com has driven a G55K offroad in Costa Rica and was very very impressed. Harald knows a hell of a lot more than us judging by his resume of work as a journalist and trainer.

Which is better? It depends on your wallet. Out-of-the-box BOTH need new tires. Some would argue both need new rims (I disagree). I don't think these 16" ATIKs that Saigon is waxing on and on about are that great. They don't have enough offset if you want a slightly oversize tire. The 18" USA rims do. Nobody can prove having the trans cooler behind the skid plate matters at all. It may even be better there. We just don't know. I wouldn't take any 463 G swimming that is less than 10 years old. I don't want to ruin a nice leathered and carpeted interior. Seriously, you'll destroy your seats and carpet without a care in the world and then bitch about the few electronics that may or may not be under the seats that may or may not survive? Any differences that may or may not be present in the stability control, throttle management, or anywhere else aren't going to make any difference off road. This is a tuning change for high speed driving and cornering. More HP is usually a good thing - a very good thing. I'd never complain about having too much. About the only valid argument is if the G55K has shorter springs, that might be an issue for you and a reason to go for a G500. But, the difference in the height might not even be enough to matter. I really don't know and assuming the earlier post is correct I wasn't even aware they changed the springs.

Still, unless money is no object, I'd abuse a G500 long before I'd abuse a G55K. Too beautiful and expensive of a ride. If I had one I'd probably even leave on the crappy Yokos b/c they are soooo nice at speed.

 

[mb230s]

OT - I want to see a picture of the E55 w/ racing slicks!

 

[mb230s]

Have you ever seen ANYONE with 35" Mud tires on 18" rims on a G-wagen?? Nope...you know why?? IT'S FREAKING IMPOSSIBLE without major (major!!) surgery!!

QUOTE]

35" will fit - granted this is on a 16" rim but it can be done w/o major surgery. It stands to reason it could be done w/ 18" tires also.

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/g-class/1124485-16-rims.html?highlight=racing

 

[mb230s]

mb230s...yes, if you LIFT THE TRUCK. And you will likely need SPACERS along with your rims. And correct me if i am wrong, you will need to trim pieces of body/frame/suspension parts. Brent had to do it i believe.

Toyo Open Country A/T is the identical twin to the Nittos that i used to have on my G. I am not a big fan of it's sidewall (very thin...thinner than stock Yokohamas). And when your rims are narrow, the tire sidewall bulge out a lot, which further exposes the thin sidewall. (This is only good if your tire has a strong sidewall.) It's a good tire...but IMHO Toyos only REAL off-road tire is the M/T, which i have been craving about for a long time.

I think that you're missing the point...i have never said that G55 AMG is unworthy or crappy off-road. It's better than 99% of SUVs out there. We're talking about G55 and how it may not be as suitable off-road as a G500. Let's stick to the topic at hand please.

As for my 16" rims, i recommend them, but i would push anyone to buy them. They are good for my purpose (max for me is 265/75/16). Unfortunately, my 16" rims are one of the few (if not the only one) choices for the G-wagen. And of course, 16" tires are cheaper than 18" tires.

As for the tranny location, it was already proven a while back that tranny temperature DO CHANGE with location. So, there is no misconception about this. I rather be on the safe side when it comes to tranny lifespan, right?

As for the childish comment...well, this is a debate/discussion...if you don't like it, then don't participate in it.

Did you even click on the link for 35" tires? NO CUTTING and NO LIFT. Scorchie offroads his truck.

Toyos and Nittos are not identical. I looked at both. The Toyo is stiffer and slightly undersize compared to the same sized rating of the Nittos. Tires are very much like shoes - a 12 isn't a 12 for every brand. Look at the revolutions per mile - that is about the most accurate measurement I've found in my research. Tire bulge is slight, and would be better on the G55 rims. Cost??? I don't think spending a few hundred bucks more every 40,000 miles is a factor for most drivers of a G500 or a G55.

Tranny temperature "proven"?? One person w/ a gauge on one truck! That is your proof?? Even if it is slightly hotter is there ANY proof that is a bad thing or is above what the limits of the tranny was built to operate in??? I don't think you realize how tough these 5 speed slush boxes are. Talk to the people at AMG. The amount of torque and abuse they can take is unreal. A few degrees difference isn't going to do a damn thing. In reality, the tranny cooler behind the skid plate is probably less likely to get clogged up with mud - which is what WILL kill the tranny.

Now I'll get childish - or at least stoop to the level you are already at but refuse to admit.

Accusing me of not sticking to the topic at hand??? That is the pot calling the kettle black. You've discussed more of this pre vs. post 2001 and stereo stuff than any one other person in this post. Since others had touched on a few of those points I made some observations also. You can do this - but I can't????

Maybe Ted didn't reseach some of the tire options like he should of, but you are no better. You clearly didn't even open up the 35" tire post. Your selective reading of most anything said and jumping to extreme conclusions without considering the "grey" middle ground is even worse. So he might not have offroad tires on his G, so he can't know anything about them? You state your little "facts" all the time for which you don't have 1st hand experience. OK for you but not Ted?

I just hope that not many people believe everything that you write, or anybody writes, without doing more research. There is so little data on these trucks when comparing rims size, tire size, every make/model of tire, what works, and what doesn't. One guy with one experience is not a 100% accuate conclusion.

"well, this is a debate/discussion...if you don't like it, then don't participate in it"

You are by far the worst offender in destroying the friendly (sometimes heated) debates/discussions this board used to have. I don't know if you mean to act like an all-knowing prick or if it is unintentionally coming across that way, but many of the posters here and on PIII get the same vibe from many of your posts.

 

[mb230s]

harald drove a naturally aspirated g55 offroad.

He's driven the Kompressor also. I put the link in one of my earlier posts in this thread.

Here's a snip:

That brings me to the G55K. Thank you Diego, for loaning and risking your favorite baby. The acceleration on pavement puts that kind of smile on your face your mother always warned you about. Mom was wrong. Can money buy happiness? If spent wisely on a K - possibly.
I had thought the G55K to be useless at crawl speeds off-road. How wrong I was! Granted the low hanging exhaust puts up some physical limitation, but man, the raw but sensibly managed power was a pure delight. I have heard women compare the pleasure of shopping with sex - I am not ashamed to compare off-road in a G55K with, huh... shopping. I could crawl up steepest inclines at a snails pace with ease. Both the 270 and the 400 labored and failed to do the same thing. The automatic/torque converter of the Diesels sounded like they would explode and still did not deliver.

 

[mb230s]

I did read the thread...maybe you missed this point:

"I started with American Racing Outlaw II wheels, 16x8 and ET25 (I think ET25... they have a couple of offsets in that size I believe). Chevy pattern... 5x127 but it doesn't really matter, because the holes were drilled between the existing holes. The reason I didn't just enlarge the existing holes 1.5mm outwards is because my machine shop suggested that the bolts might bend inwards (trying to self center in the offset ball socket)."

AND:

"The machine shop drilled ball seats at 14mm radius with the bottoms about 17mm from the back of the wheel. I was able to use my stock-length lugs that way. They had a 28mm diameter round mill, and used that.

Interestingly, while looking at a set of AMG rims for a newer car, I noticed the bottom of the ball seat to the back of the rim is only about 8mm! Not much material there."


Sorry, that is modification that not everybody can do. ET25?!!! That's very out there!! Maybe you're better with tools than me, but this is not something i can do in my garage. In addition, we are not sure if his tires rub at full articulation...he never mentioned it. From other people's experiences, the tires WILL INDEED rub with full articulation.

So you admit cutting and lifting might not be required but now your excuse is this requires a very talented machine show? BTW - Brent's post which you were eager to quote was for his 460. The chassis of the 460 and 463 are different. There is a tube that extends from the frame that is not present on the 463. YES - 460s need that cut off. Do better homework. Still, I wouldn't put 35"s on my truck - but it can be done. At least I give people options instead of telling them BS.

I could swear that they are the same tire, maybe with slightly different design...isn't Nittos owned by Toyos?? Let me google and see if i have more data for you.

Don't know - they could be made by the same company but the are NOT the same tire. There is a lot of difference between the two - which your google search easily illustrates. Like I said earlier, we just don't have the "focus group" that we need to. In my experience the Toyos is a good tire (and not a Nitto copy). There are other posts stating similar observations. Too little data. Anybody with experience in statistics will tell you there is not enough data to come up with an analytical answer. I encourage people to do research and not believe what one person claims as fact.

Tranny temp not important?? We have a strong tranny...no doubt...remember, I was the one who posted the torque capacity of our tranny!! However, this has very little to do with tranny temperature! If you do a SEARCH (see your signature), then you will hear about an owner who blew his transmission from mud covering up the front grill!! It happens...i would not just blow it off.

Tranny behind the skidplate + lower than front grill in bumper = first thing to hit mud when you jump into a mudhole or go up hill + less air circulation = measured higher temperature = may increase risk of overheating. It's not rocket science, mb230s. Like i said, i am not as ballsy as you when it comes to risking my tranny.

You know next to nothing about the tranny. If you would have read the post of the ONE member that was curious enough to do some research you'll realize he DID find a higher temp BUT concluded it MAY not matter. He doesn't know - neither do I. But he wants a G55 and doesn't think it will be a problem. I will tell you what I do KNOW. That tranny is a monster - it can handle a ridiculous amount of torque and HPs. Your posting of a torque curve doesn't justify your ridiculous statements nor are you somehow an expert b/c you posted it. Hopefully nobody believes you. There are people on this forum, PIII, other MB forums, Stuttgart, Fellbach, NJ, and even Graz who have given me much better info than you think you know.

Topic at hand...of course, i stick to it. I answer people's post...just like answering your post right now. I don't throw in irrelevant facts even if no one asks (hint hint).

Explain??? You jump on Ted's posts and mine but you are immune???? You have said exactly NOTHING that leads me to believe you have any better experience than most.

TELL ME WHEN I STATE SOMETHING WITHOUT FACTS OR 1ST HAND EXPERIENCE?? As you may know, i struggled with tire question for a long time before settling on what i have now.

mb230s, let me share a little secret with you...i am not here to kiss-ass anyone. I don't give a hoot about what you (or anyone else) think...like i said above, if you don't like what i have to say, then IGNORE ME. I have an opinion like anyone else. No need to bitch about it.

Read my last 2 posts and review what I said to vs. your blanket comments about things you clearly aren't 100% accurate on. You really do have some good points - but they aren't absolute and not always accurate. That is no secret for anybody.

Judging from the PMs I've received here and on PIII most of the knowledgeable people agree with me - NOT that I'm all knowing or 100% correct (which I'm not) but that you are NOT correct most of the time and the way you come across (quoting a phrase I regretted at first) is like an arrogant prick.

 

[mb230s]

mb230s,

Let's talk about the tire issue...the guy you quoted used ET25 rims...yes ET25!! And they are specially made rims which REQUIRES him to drill more holes to accomodate the new rims. So, let me ask you this...WITHOUT DRILLING and finding rims that are now available on the market, can you do the same without lifting and cutting??? NO. In fact, are there any 18" rims with ET25 that can fit on a G??????????????? Please answer.

Somebody got them to fit w/ inexpensive common rims. I wouldn't do it, but it was done. That was my point. He didn't cut, he didn't lift.

In fact, if you read more carefully, you will see that the member questioned the ability to do the same drilling on AMG model.

Where? He looked at an AMG rim for a new car to see how much material thickness there was and found there was only 8mm. This is one of the factors gave him confidence to try drilling his rims. Is there another post you are talking about or did you not read his post?

It's not that Nittos "could" be made by Toyo...NITTOS IS THE SUBSIDARY OF TOYO. Same company. Same casing, different tread design.

I haven't done any research on the Toyo/Nitto relationship, hence I'm not going to state either as a fact. I did research both tires substantially and they are very different. Being the "same" company doesn't make them the same tire. Some others liked the Nittos a lot, you did not. But there are good 18" tires out there. You commented in your earlier post they stick out to far for your tastes. The G55 or early optional AMG rims are wider and would solve this concern of yours. So one could argue the G55K is actually easier to adapt w/o the need to buy new rims (or swap calipers) like you prefer for the G500. Not for you, I understand. But tell people the options.

Tell me...what does torque capacity of the tranny have to do with temperature and risk of tranny overheating??????????? Tell me please...i am dying to understand. If this is by your logic, then why need a cooler anyway since the torque capacity on our tranny is so good?????? Since you have so much info at your disposal (from this forum, PIII, other MB forums, Stuttgart, Fellbach, NJ, and even Graz), tell me more please! (Hopefully, you're not blowing smoke here.)

BTW, i did not post any torque curve on the tranny...i posted the TORQUE CAPACITY between our 5-speed auto and the new 7-speed auto. SEARCH and you will read more about it.

Bit of a stretch. Are you going to start telling people I'm advising the removal of the cooler? (Which I'm not) I don't need to re-read your post. I know quite well the differences between the 5 and 7 and more importantly the strength and durability of the 5 speed. Sorry about the "capacity" vs. "curve".

You did not comment on the guy who overheated his tranny because of mud stuck in the front lower grill. This should NOT happen based on your claim of our mighty tranny, right??? Why?? Because torque capacity has NOTHING TO DO with a tranny's ability to fight heat!

Logic: Tranny behind the skidplate + LOWER than front grill in bumper = first thing to hit mud when you jump into a mudhole or go up hill + less air circulation + less ways for mud to empty + harder for owner to clean while off-roading (first hand experience here!) + measured higher temperature in that location = may increase risk of overheating. Again, it's not rocket science here.

I did comment on a clogged tranny cooler as a killer. Read again. I also made no absolute claim about the positions but I gave some opinions and some speculations, but we don't really know. We have very little data. One guy, with one observation is not fact. In my opinion if AMG put it there - it is fine. They do a lot of testing and they say it is fine. The amount of torque and abuse the tranny can handle is very important AND it is important to keep them cool. My point is, that they are very tough and a few degrees won't make a difference. Both locations require a dilligent owner to check for mud and blockage. The skid plate is pretty easy to clean out. I actually had a bit harder time getting the hose behind my bumper once when I had mud on both sides of the cooler, but it is an easy task also.

Did W5YK have the temp gauge on his tranny BEFORE he moved it to the AMG location? What were the differences? Was this a towing observation or an offroading observation? (I'm asking, I don't know the answers.)

TELL ME WHEN I STATE SOMETHING WITHOUT FACTS OR 1ST HAND EXPERIENCE?? This is ALL I GIVE...nothing more & nothing less. I stand by my tire comments above. I stand by the tranny temperature differences based on other people's experiences and plain simple logic. I stand by the "underseat electronics" comments because, unlike people here, i have asked questions to my dealer and TeleAid.

Really??? I find some interesting contradictions all over your posts. It probably wouldn't be such a big deal if you didn't jump on everybody so harshly. We all make mistakes, our memory fades, we read something wrong or we believe something that isn't much more than a speculation.

Again, it's wonferful that you get these "PMs" from "other members"...why don't you forward some of that to me as "proof"?? (besides my good friends ewalberg, dutch, and brent) Oh yeah, i have a friend of a neighbor who once knew a neighbor of your uncle's friend who lives next to a friend of your neighbor now who said that you're an arrogant prick. There...i have someone to say the same about you. Seriously, i have my supporters too...so, it makes little difference with your low-handed comments about my character. That is just sad...and very unexpected from you honestly. Of course, i saw that you slam Kerr on the "other" forum for improper use of the language (WTF was that about?)...so, i guess that i should expect this from you then.

Tell my uncle's neighbor's friend I said hi. PMs are Private Mails. I'm not forwarding those on. Kerr, myself, and several others have made jokes before. Maybe it was out of line, maybe it wasn't. I don't think my occassional joke is that big of a deal. Look for the "bookshelf" comment I made on this forum a while back. Kerr thought it was funny.

Anyway, I apologize for the prick comment, I shouldn't have made it.

I just love the way people characterize someone over the net...why need a psychiatrist when you can come to these forums and get therapy?!! I need to throw away my pills and spend more time on here!

Maybe, can't help you on any medical/pill popping issues. Get whatever help you need. Keep taking your rig offroad. That might help also.

 

[mb230s]

Thai,

If you are concerned about my info sources - the tranny is a particular interest of mine b/c I usually bring up the lack of a manual transmission in the SL. I've been to Stuttgart, the AMG headquarters, the Classic Center, and Graz. I've also spoken with several MB bigwigs (local, regional and corporate) about various issues w/ my truck and other topics or at the private MB events I usually get invited to. Of the 10 or so people I spoke with mentioned above I've discussed the lack of a manual trans, the AMG 5 speed, and the upcoming (at the time) 7 speed on at least one occassion. At least 1/2 of these individuals will take my calls to this day. Several drop me notes and/or call occassionally. I've made some good connections at DC, some might even be considered friends. Does that mean I'll name drop b/c you asked?? No, I don't want to burn a bridge nor risk getting anybody pissed at me. I like being in the loop and having contacts in high places. You can believe me or not - several of the others on this board can probably vouch that I do know some people at DC. I've also read all the literature, magazines, watched the TV shows (Speed Channel had a good AMG special a year or so), spoke w/ all the major tuners (Brabus, Renntech, Kleeman) and know several other enthusiasts w/ AMG cars or similar MB passion. Yes, I probably have too much time on my hands and have an unhealthy obsession with Mercedes-Benz and cars in general.

The strength and amount of abuse these things can take is unreal. AMG is very proud of the unit and often talks about the strength and durability. YES - this translates to resistence to a certain amount of heat. The cooler is obviously needed, but the transmission is not operating on a razor thin margin where a few degrees will kill it. There are cars w/ a heck of a lot more horsepower raced for hours and hours in the worst conditions. Guys like SilverSurfer and Ted have gone aftermarket and sent even more horsepower and torque through these units. If you can't understand this WILL generate more heat and the transmissions still survive - I can't help you. It is obvious and very logical to most everybody else.

Fact - we have one truck indicating the move to the skid plate increases heat. This owner thinks the location is fine, still has the cooler there, tows more than probably any of us in very hot Southern California and Mexico, probably has more miles on his G than most of us, and also wants a G55K.

Fact - AMG put the cooler behind the skid plate on the G55 b/c of the need for more engine cooling. AMG is confident there is enough air flow in that location and feels the transmission is safe. Their placement of it there is proof enough for me.

Fact - there are 18" offroad tires. They fit better on the G55 rim b/c of the increased width. There are more coming, the Silent Armor being one of them. A G55 brake change wouldn't be needed.

Regarding the 35" tires - I never said it was good idea. But you said it was impossible w/o cutting and lifting. Clearly that isn't true - somebody did it. I agree, it isn't ideal, but not impossible. Are we splitting hairs??? Maybe.

OT - about the 6 speed. As I mentioned before AMG is very proud of the 5 speed. They still use it instead of the 7 in the Kompressor, V12, and SLR. There are 2 factors going against a manual - the SL is too luxurious to shift manually. The 2nd, w/ all the F1/paddle shifts/computer shifts/ect that the other luxury/exotics are using more and more there will be fewer and fewer people like myself that prefer to shift gears manually. Too bad, it would be a cool package.

Anyway - none of this may be good enough for you. I hope it helps answer the question for others concerned about the G500 vs. G55 offroad debate or at least causes them to research further before making a decision. I probably should have structured my earlier posts more along the direction/tone this post took.

 

[mb230s]

OT - more manual.


This goes back much further than the new crop of technology. I can't think of the last time a SL had a manual transmission. It could have been the 107 chassis? I don't think the 129s ever did. The 113s could be found with a 4 or 5 speed.

What you wrote is of course the probable direction TODAY with all the innovations. Many aspects are true as said.

Even more OT - going into other brands.

I did not like the M transmission but I did like the Maseratti version. It might grow on me. I know the data shows these transmissions shift quicker - but I still like to shift gears. More fun.