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1985 Euro 300TD Turbo, 1983 Euro 300TD turbo, 1979 Euro 240TD and 1981 300D converted to euro.
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Ok this is just a rant and has nothing to do with people not truely loving W123's ,but.......im just so sick of seeing these poor cars coming into someones life mainly just to be a trash dump so they can save a buck on gas and maybe take a 0.002% chunk out of the global warming bullsh*t.

It's cool for us to see first time W123 owners learning and loving these cars and most of them do wind up using straight diesel ,but the high rise of 240D ,300D and up diesel model at pick n pulls with WVO dual tanks in the trunk and wrapped injector lines added with higher costs for us....well it just burns me......k theres my rant anyone else feel close to how i do about this or am i going to get bombed now.....we shall see.

For those that choose not to attack me now and have liked what they read.....THANKS!
 

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1981 240D
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858 Posts
i considered doing WVO but I just burn biodiesel instead. i decided not to risk the car, even though the IP and engine is legendary in the WVO world. i now fall into that category that love the car for the car, not because i can burn fried oil in it. but, i never would have discovered the joy of owning one of these cars if it wasn't for the WVO craze.
 

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1982 240D, 1983 300D
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I didn't realize people were doing the conversion and then deciding they didn't want the car. That's sad. For me, I just sold my '94 Honda Civic yesterday, the last car I'll ever own that runs on 'gas.'

I have a 240d and 300d and decided to convert both cars to have 2 tanks. I'm doing it because global warming is changing our planet, today, and everything we can do, even if it's .0002% less emissions, is good. But, I completely and totally love these cars and love to work on them. I can't imagine buying another car, until I buy an electric one. Why would you? If people are buying these cars and then getting rid of them, the only thing I can imagine is they are just blind to what they have. It's impossible to force someone to open their eyes to the beauty before them, but it may come, over time.
 

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You're missing the point. The veggie fuel trend isn't simply to save $. I'm paying $3.70 per gallon for biodiesel. *Ouch!*

However, by doing so I:

1. Recycle a waste product (vegetable oil from a potato chip factory, in my case)
2. Reduce dependence on foriegn oil
3. Reduce the amount of toxic elements introduced into the air, not just co2

It's a no brainer from my point of view and I sleep better at night knowing my Mercedes is fueled with veggie oil.

Plus, I never would have been introduced to this amazing car without my interest in veggie fuel. :thumbsup:
 

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83 300d turbo, 79 c123 AMG
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I will agree that without the veggie fuel incentive I would have never been interested in these cars. I originally intended to do the conversion and all that but have heard horror stories of blown pumps and destroyed motors.

I plan on runing mine on a biodiesel mix in the near future but will not run them on straight veggie oil. I understand what Garrett is getting at, that many people pick these cars up (and often the better examples) and run them into the ground cosmetically and mechanically. I agree and hate to see it done. I get scared when I see the finest examples (less than 100k, perfect cosmetically) advertised with the WVO/Biodiesel catch phrases. Those are the cars that need to be saved, and while running veggie won't kill the car, it is bad for it as this particular motor was designed to run pump diesel, NOT WVO.

To those that do run the stuff, I just hope you guys really love the car because straight veggie can clog stuff up and cause premature failure. If you love the car you will have it fixed, but again as Garrett said, people are not fixing them and we are loosing w123's at a suprisingly high rate.
 

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1984 Mercedez 300D W123
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What do you feel about people who buy a w123 to save it AS WELL as convert it. People thinking that their contribution, which will only have a .0002% effect, will never make a difference is the root of most problems in society, environment aside. If one person feels this apathy, that's one thing. BUT, for every one person who thinks this, there are 3 million that think the same thing. If everyone actually, god forbid, exerted some energy into causes they felt stronger about, most situations would be better. (More people vote for American Idol than for the President, yet people don't vote for the President cause they don't think their vote will make a difference).

I hate apathy.

ANYWAY. I just bought a 1984 w123 300D-T, and I am very much in the process of saving it. No cars of mine have, are, or will ever be junk cars. This car will be with me for a long time, and I intend on keeping it up. I am converting it to WVO to make that difference. I'm sick of supporting oil companies and their evil shitestorms. I don't buy from large corporations for the same reason. There are a lot of evil bastards with too much money, and not enough of that money is invested into local communities. WVO may not be supporting local businesses, but buying gas from ExxonMobil is not the only alternative. Probably the worst alternative.

That's my 2cents.
 

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1984 300D turbo
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I agree I never would have been introduced to these cars without the wvo craze. but after hearing some the disadvantages of using wvo I desided to try my hand at making my own biodiesel. And so far my test batches have come out with good success. I say love the chrome bumpers!!
 

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1980 300D
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Although no, I do not run my car on B20 nor pure vegetable oil as of now, I bought this car to prepare for when we do have to. I mean, I agree it's kind of mean to abuse the car with foreign oil's rather than the one it's used to. But It's their car, it just shows how versitle they really were.
 

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various W123 chassis
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476 Posts
I'm with ya Diametrical...

I got some heat for my outcry on the MBCA forum....been trying to lay off the subject but wanted you to know I agree. I feel I got into these before the veg oil thing so when I heard about it and learned the ins and outs, the concept becomes a sore subject for me. Neddless to say it's been tough to witness over the last 18 months. It's like an additional assualt on the model's longevity up there with careless inheritors of the cars, wrecks, rip-off mechanics, bad mechanics, bad owners, bad parts....

The trend has done wonders for their value, though. I predict we'll see the words "never run on veg oil" as part of future For Sale ad descriptions

They're really starting to show up in the junkyards already, huh?

It doesn't surprise me....it was inevitable by default of course but if you're noticing a big upturn...a lot of veg action out there in CA- so it figures. How many times have you seen a beater car on E-Bay that was bought on E-Bay 3 months prior for "conversion" that they couldn't make happen?

While I'm ranting, the useage of "ready for conversion to biodiesel/veg oil" as a sales point is pretty nauseating...and those that make cheap and easy "science projects" out of them for school (which just get eaten up as some great and nobel cutting trend revelation the students and faculty ooo and ahh over. Non-fossil fuel + MB diesel that runs on it = A+)

I'm trying to take in all in stride these days, and I've held my tongue A LOT on this board as many folks here are into the trend...but I'll tell you one thing, I've gotten to the point where I can TELL a car has been running on veg oil for a while when I pull the valve cover....

There seems to be many anecdoteal endorsements, the highest (if you can believe it) I've seen is about 20,000 miles "with no issues or degradation" -but I'm sure there are plenty of experimenters that were proved wrong who won't 'fess up to it. You can feel good about not buying middle east oil all you want, but it's not going to change the proven principles of the diesel engine.

I see it this way. Rudolf Diesel and other engineers proved peanut oil by itself and unmodified was a less than ideal fuel for compression motors in the long term. So why try to go back to it?

While the auto companies have been utilizing the most suitable and availible fuel (fossil) for their products, and the evolution of both, the universities' research is revealing ill effects of veg oil fueling diesel motors, often without the luxury of billion-dollar R+D budgets. We now have ultra-low sulfer working for the environment and surely biodiesel is going to grow in the market place, which meets strict regulations and quality guidelines, while having positive effects on both the environment and the commodities markets. Daimler has specified what quality and how much biodiesel can be used safely. So why is it some think we can just skip all that wisdom? Remember, in USA if it's not ASTM-6751, it's not genuine biodiesel. If you really want to utilize this fuel with jepordizing the car, insist on verification of this rating. I think there is a lot of questionable product being marketed as biodiesel. I can't wait until good bio from the major suppliers is easier to aquire. You know how mid grade gas is just regular and premium mixed by the pump? Some stations have 5 grades of octane, just different mixtures of two tanks. Well surely one day they can/will have the same set up between B100 and D100, hopefully with a percentage control dial! Then I can set mine at ten or less and others can set theirs wherever. Price may complicate things, but gas pumps are due some computerized updating anyway....

At least the trend has brought in many new enthusiasts to this car, and they are realizing the car is great not just because of it's amazing abilities to withstand fuel abuse. I DO welcome that, so maybe it works out positive and negative. This is really a pretty admirable testment and benefit to the model. Very forgivible!

Sorry if kept my comments too restrained, one day I state how I really feel. ;)


Oh and for getting carried away, sorry about that too. (And insulting anyone.)
 

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MB 240D 1983, MB 300TD
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I bought a truely rusted out 240D cheap with the intention of experimenting with fuels. Been welding for a couple of months now and I'm close to having it safe enough to drive. I have come to realy like the car. I think for me the challeng:bowdown: e of getting it to work on Vegtable oil and work well is important. I don't expect it to be easy to drive, I'll have to constantly fiddle with it. I consider this a feature of the conversion. I like the idea of completing the carbon cycle, I'm a Gaiaist and an amatuer engineer, it's how I pray.http://www.benzworld.org/forums/images/smilies/bowdown.gif
:bowdown:
 

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'77 6.9, 74 240D, 96 Ram 5.9L Cummins
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I do see your point about people chopping the cars up willy-nilly and then getting frustrated because they don't do the research and then just dump the car. It's sad when it happens. It's just like the RHD 280SE on the W116 forum. It's an owner with a gross misunderstanding of cars ultimately trashing the car for no reason.

If people in Northern California are dumping cars with WVO kits in them then I would be buying up all the parts at a fraction of the cost.

I have noticed that most of the car problems are related to general mechanical negligence such as low oil and or head and cooling problems, not necessarily anything that is fuel related or something that couldn't probably be fixed (such as running WVO in 5 degree weather. ;)
 

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1980 300 TD
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diametricalbenz said:
I have noticed that most of the car problems are related to general mechanical negligence such as low oil and or head and cooling problems, not necessarily anything that is fuel related or something that couldn't probably be fixed (such as running WVO in 5 degree weather. ;)
Ive been reading this topic with amazing interest. Not by the actual topic (the problem of people buying the car just for the WVO use, and not for liking to drive the car for it's classical value) but by the statement that some of you bought the car mainly for using it to drive on WVO, but didn't made the nessesary adjustments (conversion) to drive on WVO yet.

As fas as I know the diesels don't need any adjustment for driving on WVO (vegtable oil). In summer here are 300D, and 240D driven on 100% WVO. Outside tempratures from 15 degrees (Celcius), and higher. In the winter percentages are going down to a mix of 50 percent WVO and diesel, to 30% in real cold (under 5 degrees Celcius).

I don't drive my 300TD on veggie oil yet, but the question is: am I being wrongly informed?? Is it possible to drive on WVO without any adjustments made?? Off course assuming the car is in good mechanical condition, and maintained like a classic car should...
 

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various W123 chassis
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It is well proven you don't need to do anything to the car and it WILL RUN on veg oil. It is also well proven it WILL gum up the motor. If modified WVO fails the ASTM 6751, it will hurt the motor to SOME degree over time. I've actually suggested biodiesel as "medication" for motors gummed up with veg oil use. )Fuel gets into the engine oil by nature; this is the problem with the veg oil long term)

It's like changing your diet to beer and bacon and Twinkies when you are 20 years old. You won't die, but would you expect to live past 45 eating like that?
 

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1985 Euro 300TD Turbo, 1983 Euro 300TD turbo, 1979 Euro 240TD and 1981 300D converted to euro.
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Discussion Starter #14
There are many different fuels-oils-foods...ect that you can run a unmoded Mercedes Diesel......if you have enough money you can keep one running on whatever the point i wasmaking is no one is....there are trying it killing them then moving on.

Ilove these cars and knew you could run them on WvO before the gas price spikes ,but its to be used only as and emergency like if you run out of diesel and cant find any you can most likely find a Mcdonalds before you run dry.

You grab your shirt and use it as a filter and poor it in straight...then you get home and call it a day.

I want to see more VW and AUDIs and American cars at pick n pulls i cant stand not having the land or the money to save these REAL TRUE AUTOS the ones that last and love you back.


And diesel is smog exempt here in cali for a reason....if you drive a diesel period its better for the world.
 

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1982 Mercedes 300TD wagon
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I did plenty of research on the effects of biodiesel and wvo on our engines. It was my understanding based on university tests (I can provide links) that it was more or less fairly harmless if done properly. That is; the oil is clean, free of water and contaminates and heated properly in a second tank. I personally use the Greasecar system and so far so good. Can anyone actually provide concrete evidence that a 617 motor was destroyed by wvo and not other factors? I'd be highly interested to see if two completely rebuilt motors were tested on wvo vs diesel what harm would show if any. The problem is these cars are so old that who can be sure?
Vince, have you seen the inside of an engine before and after using oil? If so and you have seen numerous cases of etching etc, I'd be interested in knowing. The University of Idaho (I think) test I read about utilized three new Dodge diesels and ran them on diesel, biodiesel and wvo and tore them apart years later and found little significant differences. I'd agree that running on straight diesel is probably the smartest bet for longevity. However I'm saving a lot of money using clean wvo. If I am totally wrong and you are totally right and I kill my engine, I will rebuild it and never use oil again.
I am more saddened by the majority of the yahoos in California who are running with the Lovecrap system which uses the main tank and a heated fuel filter. That's just plain dumb. Sure he says his cars have over 20k on them without issue. I say wait a few more years and check. By then he'll be loooong gone!
 

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1984 Mercedez 300D W123
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The great thing about Mercedes however, is that you CAN run the car on just one tank. A Mercedes will start on just veggie oil because it puts out about 500 PSI more than any other car (not necessarily all others, but the majority).

There are factors that many people don't consider. The kit I'm installing in my w123 is a one tank WVO conversion. The oil has to be specific though. I can run diesel, biodiesel, kerosene mixes, etc. as well as straight veggie oil. However, unlike the greasecar kit, I won't be able to run hydrogenated oils. There are certain brands that are specific to my WVO kit. That being said, I will most likely be converting it and running a mixture or possibly just biodiesel because, well, I live in Maine. For those of you who have never been to Maine in the winter...20 degrees is pretty warm. Even the best of veggie oils need to be thinned with a mixture to keep from gelling in this cold.

I think most of the people posting make the same counter-point. Yes a WVO kit engine can get dirty and eventually die, but so will any engine without the right maintenance. As long as you take care of your engine, it won't matter what fuel you use if you keep it clean and maintained.
 

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1981 240D
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Iamnickd said:
The great thing about Mercedes however, is that you CAN run the car on just one tank. A Mercedes will start on just veggie oil because it puts out about 500 PSI more than any other car (not necessarily all others, but the majority).

There are factors that many people don't consider. The kit I'm installing in my w123 is a one tank WVO conversion. The oil has to be specific though. I can run diesel, biodiesel, kerosene mixes, etc. as well as straight veggie oil. However, unlike the greasecar kit, I won't be able to run hydrogenated oils. There are certain brands that are specific to my WVO kit. That being said, I will most likely be converting it and running a mixture or possibly just biodiesel because, well, I live in Maine. For those of you who have never been to Maine in the winter...20 degrees is pretty warm. Even the best of veggie oils need to be thinned with a mixture to keep from gelling in this cold.

I think most of the people posting make the same counter-point. Yes a WVO kit engine can get dirty and eventually die, but so will any engine without the right maintenance. As long as you take care of your engine, it won't matter what fuel you use if you keep it clean and maintained.
are you also installing new injectors to handle the thicker fuel and prevent coking? heating the crap out of that oil, installing a 1 mu filter, and changing the injectors is the only way i would consider it. otherwise, just make the veggie oil into biodiesel. no mods are required, there's far less risk, and you're still using the oil.

as it's been pointed out before, just because you CAN do something doesn't mean you SHOULD.
 

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1980 300 TD
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Benzoid123 said:
I did plenty of research on the effects of biodiesel and wvo on our engines. It was my understanding based on university tests (I can provide links) that it was more or less fairly harmless if done properly. That is; the oil is clean, free of water and contaminates and heated properly in a second tank. I personally use the Greasecar system and so far so good. Can anyone actually provide concrete evidence that a 617 motor was destroyed by wvo and not other factors?
I think youv'e hit the real point here. It's very difficult to get a good measurable test with everyday cars, where often the history of the cars, and with that the ammount of wear is not exactly known.

After some research on the net I found a forum which is only about driving on WVO, or PPO (Pure plant oil which is still cheaper than diesel around here). Here they state that our Diesel is one of the rare engines that IS capable of driving on it without any convesions. Off course still assuming that the engine is in good mechanical condition, and that driving on 100% PPO should only be done at outside tempratures of 15 degrees Celcuis and higher. Below those tempratures you should start mixing with BIOdiesel, diesel, or even (a very few percentages) petrol. Or off course use a 2 Tank system, or heating the one tank and fuellines...

There are on this forum some guys who are driving a non converted Merc. Diesel for over 50K's now. There is even one guy (300TD non Turbo) who does this the last few summers on 100% with a non revised engine with 610.000 km on it...

So that is just some examples to show that the other side of the story (no problems) is also experienced..

Truth is probably somewhere in the middle...
 

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1984 300CD, 1983 240TD Euro
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rothgar said:
However, by doing so I:...

...3. Reduce the amount of toxic elements introduced into the air, not just co2...
I must tell you, you are mistaken about the "toxic elements". Bio diesel actually increases the Nitrogen Oxides (NOx) polution.
Look here:
http://www.biodiesel.org/pdf_files/fuelfactsheets/emissions.pdf

As for using WVO, I don't, won't and advise against it. Too much info about catastrophic engine failure and injector coking. I don't even use ATF any more after reading about that (and Marshal Booth's advise).
 

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'77 6.9, 74 240D, 96 Ram 5.9L Cummins
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The NOx levels are increased but the car is closer to being carbon neutral compared to any other petroleum burner. Hybrids just use less gas pumped from the planet's crust. Biodiesel, WVO, SVO is farmed so plants take some CO2 out of the air to grow. More local pollution but less global pollution....if you believe in that sort of thing. :)
 
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