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with the price of gas and the mpg rating of our ML, hopefully we'll see the hybrid model in the near future...the Toyota Harrier (Lexus RX400h) and Kluger (Highlander) will soon be selling in April..read on please...


http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7266895/




Ajim
 

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Diesel...

I think I'd rather have the diesel. No need to worry about the batteries or have the weight penalty.
 

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RE: Diesel...

And diesel fuel economy is better: The E320 CDI gets 38 MPG on the highway, the RX400h only 26 MPG.
 

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RE: Diesel...

Wolfgang - 3/25/2005 10:36 AM

And diesel fuel economy is better: The E320 CDI gets 38 MPG on the highway, the RX400h only 26 MPG.
Yeah, but the RX400h has a 0-60 of 7.2 seconds; the ML320CDI is 2 seconds slower. The RX is not designed to optimize economy, obviously. Hybrids that are can achieve better than diesel economy, expecially in the City. Even the RX is rated at 30 mpg City.

There are diesel hybrids, too, of course, if you want the ultimate.
 

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RE: wishing for a hybrid ML - maybe sooner than we think!

What about a ML164 diesel hybrid! That would be the ticket. Since DC bought the technology license from Toyota just before Christmas, it may happen sooner than we think.

Apparently, there is a S class diesel hybrid running around already.... http://www.greencarcongress.com/2005/01/mercedes_sclass.html that gets 34 mpg!!

Mercedes-Benz S-Class “Hybrid� develops a maximum power of 241 kW/340 hp – a new record for cars with hybrid drive systems. The V8 CDI diesel engine develops 191 kW/260 hp and 560 Nm of torque. The two electric motors, which have a combined output of 50 kW/70 hp,
FYI, my partner's 2004 Prius is simply amazing - very good power, seats 4 easily and handles the mountain highways very well. The various software algorithms they wrote into this thing area amazing. Back and forth to Whistler from Vancouver, it gets 5.2L/100 going uphill to Whistler and down to 2.8L/100 on the way back!
 

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Hybrid cars… Lets see… with the initial higher cost and following maintenance cost (replacing very expensive battery cells, and likely some electrical parts) you will have to use this car for 59 years just to get cost even with the conventional car. (compared Honda LX and Honda Hybrid, read in MotorTrend magazine)

Also, there are some safety and environmental issues being raised now. Such as 1. in the race for fuel efficiency these cars getting lighter and lighter (more plastics) 2. in case of accident/fire electro acid cell fumes are very harmful. 3. recycling of battery cells is harmful for the environment.

Therefore, my vote will be for ‘Diesel’ if situation changes here in US. So far Diesel cars cost more, and diesel fuel cost more then a premium gas! In Europe situation is complete opposite.
 

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aleveran - 3/25/2005 4:55 PM

Hybrid cars… Lets see… with the initial higher cost and following maintenance cost (replacing very expensive battery cells, and likely some electrical parts) you will have to use this car for 59 years just to get cost even with the conventional car. (compared Honda LX and Honda Hybrid, read in MotorTrend magazine)

Also, there are some safety and environmental issues being raised now. Such as 1. in the race for fuel efficiency these cars getting lighter and lighter (more plastics) 2. in case of accident/fire electro acid cell fumes are very harmful. 3. recycling of battery cells is harmful for the environment.

Therefore, my vote will be for ‘Diesel’ if situation changes here in US. So far Diesel cars cost more, and diesel fuel cost more then a premium gas! In Europe situation is complete opposite.
You raise good questions about hybrids. At this point it may be more about "doing the right thing" than an economic choice, but the situation should improve as hybrid costs come down and fuel prices go up. Lexus claims their batteries are good for the life of the car. They use lithium ion, which are safer and less risky for the environment, than lead acid.
 

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RE: Diesel...

GregW / Oregon - 3/25/2005 4:03 PM
Yeah, but the RX400h has a 0-60 of 7.2 seconds; the ML320CDI is 2 seconds slower.
Greg, Lexus gives 7.3 seconds for the 0-60. The ML320 CDI is 8.6 0-100 km/h, and should be a little less for the 0-60, so it's probably closer than a two seconds difference. City fuel economy is probably better in the Lexus, but on the highway the ML320 CDI has the advantage.
 

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RE: wishing for a hybrid ML - maybe sooner than we think!

jangr320 - 3/25/2005 4:35 PM
Since DC bought the technology license from Toyota just before Christmas..
Jangr320, do you have a quote/source for this? As far as I know DaimlerChrysler partnered with GM to develop P1/2 hybrids using Allison transmission hybrids already running in a fleet of city hybrid buses. I've heard claims the buses saved more fuel so far than Toyota's Priuses, but I haven't checked that out yet.

<a href="http://www.gm.com/company/gmability/edu_k-12/5-8/fc_energy/allison_drives_poster.pdf"> Allison Electric drives (pdf)</a>
 

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GregW / Oregon - 3/25/2005 5:13 PM
You raise good questions about hybrids. At this point it may be more about "doing the right thing" than an economic choice, but the situation should improve as hybrid costs come down and fuel prices go up. Lexus claims their batteries are good for the life of the car. They use lithium ion, which are safer and less risky for the environment, than lead acid.[/QUOTE]

--------------------------------------------------
You are right, but unfortunately "doing the right thing" will not do much progress here. (unless of course they’ll start ‘doing the right thing’ and pay me MORE at my job [:)])

However, government incentives to the car manufactures and owners will. Japan is a good example. Producing and owning polluting cars will cost you some serious JPY’s
 

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RE: Diesel...

The big economy advantage of a hybrid is in stop and go city driving, which is what most of us do most of the time. Quoting highway mileage misses the whole point of having a hybrid.

Hybrids also offer the advantage of very little wearing of the brakes as most of the braking is regenerative.

There is one adavantage for diesels : they make so much noise that you never have to use the horn.... :)

DelJ



Wolfgang - 3/25/2005 10:36 AM

And diesel fuel economy is better: The E320 CDI gets 38 MPG on the highway, the RX400h only 26 MPG.
 

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RE: Diesel...

DelJ - 3/25/2005 5:59 PM
The big economy advantage of a hybrid is in stop and go city driving...
DelJ, just came across this article evaluating the hybrid bus program which may be of interest. They are mainly used in city stop and go.

http://www.energybulletin.net/3789.html

Re. Diesels. Try one of the newer MB CDIs. No noticeable noise difference once warmed up.
 

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RE: Diesel...

Wolfgang - 3/25/2005 5:14 PM

GregW / Oregon - 3/25/2005 4:03 PM
Yeah, but the RX400h has a 0-60 of 7.2 seconds; the ML320CDI is 2 seconds slower.
Greg, Lexus gives 7.3 seconds for the 0-60. The ML320 CDI is 8.6 0-100 km/h, and should be a little less for the 0-60, so it's probably closer than a two seconds difference. City fuel economy is probably better in the Lexus, but on the highway the ML320 CDI has the advantage.
Well, the numbers depend upon where you look, I guess. From GCF reprint of M-B press release they claim 9.4a 0-62:

From Auntomobile Magaxine online -
Press the pedal to engage the full piston-electric team, and you're whisked to 60 mph in 7.2 seconds, only 0.7 second slower than a Cadillac SRX V-8.

From German Car Fans reprint of M-B press release http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2050109.002/page/6/lang/eng/mercedes/1.html -

ML 280 CDI : ML 320 CDI : ML 350 : ML 500

Output
140 kW/190 hp : 165 kW/224 hp : 200 kW/272 hp : 225 kW/306 hp

Max. torque at rpm
440 Nm (1400-2800 rpm) : 510 Nm (1600-2800 rpm) : 350 Nm (2400-5000 rpm) : 460 Nm (2700-4750 rpm)

0–100 km/h
10.4 s : 9.4 s : 8.4 s : 6.9 s

Max. speed
200 km/h : 210 km/h : 215 km/h : 235 km/h

Fuel consumption*
9.4 l/100 km : 9.4 l/100 km : 11.5 l/100 km : 13.1/100 km

But, I just found your 8.6 time here:

http://www.mercedes-benz.de/content/germany/mpc/mpc_germany_website/de/home_mpc/passenger_cars/home/products/new_cars/m_class/modelle___technische.html
 

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RE: Diesel...

DelJ - 3/25/2005 5:59 PM

Hybrids also offer the advantage of very little wearing of the brakes as most of the braking is regenerative.
I believe you are a bit mistaken here. The brakes wear down the same as a regular car, however the car utilises the potential energy from slowing down to build up the battery life.

There is one adavantage for diesels : they make so much noise that you never have to use the horn.... :)
As Wolfgang said, you may wish to experience an E320CDI sometime in the near future. I had one for a week for a review and it's so quiet inside that most of my family and friends had no idea that it was a diesel. From the outside, there is only some clatter when cold. After the warmup, it is quite and nowhere close to the noise that you hear from diesel pickup trucks. That is old old diesel technology.
 

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RE: Diesel...

GregW / Oregon - 3/25/2005 8:51 PM
Well, the numbers depend upon where you look, I guess. From GCF reprint of M-B press release they claim 9.4 0-62:
Greg, the Mercedes-Benz press release dated 9/1/2005 giving 9.4 seconds was most likely in error. The correct number for the ML320 CDI is 8.6 seconds. Not sure if MB intentionally misled us or the competition, but it wouldn't be the first time they pulled something like this. [:)]
 

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Diesel or electric ?

Anyone can find me again this analysis, that the diesel was most efficient than hybird, counting the energy used to generate the electric charging power ?. Perception plays most part with the diesel first blow of black smoke, I always felt the same, til I did some research .. Looks like invisible smoke is the worst of all.

Did not try this in a car, but takeoff in electric trams is amazing, so assume the same with hybird cars, nevertheless, tried the takeoff with the X5 diesel, and behold, the sales girl was in the carpet. Tram was left in the dust.

Anyone tested the 320 CDI so far ?
 

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RE: Diesel...

I am not mistaken! Hybrids work by recapturing the kinetic energy of the vehicle during much of the braking and stores this energy for subsequent propulsion. It is not necessary for the brake pads to be touching the rotors during regenerative braking, in fact this would undermine the advantage of a hybrid vehicle.

In actual use there will be a combination of mostly regenerative and some conventional braking. I wouldn't be surprised if the brake pads lasted over 100,000 miles and the rotors the life of the vehicle.

DelJ



Drew - 3/25/2005 9:22 PM
I believe you are a bit mistaken here. The brakes wear down the same as a regular car, however the car utilises the potential energy from slowing down to build up the battery life.
 

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RE: Diesel...

The General Motors 'hybrid' system is a very limited (lame) attempt on their part. Their own predictions on the upcoming GM hybrid products show very modest improvements, similar to what was achieved by the Seattle buses. I suspect that some marketing hype got out of hand in the Seattle case. The Toyota and Ford systems are much more effective.

You can read about how limited the GM hybrids are in this article:

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/pw/05gmhybrid.htm

Don't expect GM to ever lead the way.

DelJ





Wolfgang - 3/25/2005 6:44 PM

DelJ, just came across this article evaluating the hybrid bus program which may be of interest. They are mainly used in city stop and go.

http://www.energybulletin.net/3789.html
 

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RE: Diesel...

DelJ - 3/26/2005 8:36 AM
You can read about how limited the GM hybrids are in this article:

http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/pw/05gmhybrid.htm
DelJ, the above is the GM integrated starter alternator damper (ISAD) system supplied by Conti-Teves. It's a mild hybrid first offered on the 2003 GMC Sierra and saves up tp 15% depending on driving cycle. <a href="http://www.conti-online.com/generator/www/de/en/cas/cas/themes/products/electric_drives/hybrid_drives/overview_hybrid_drives_en.html"> more ISAD info</a>

The ISAD system has nothing to do with the full-hybrid Allison P1/2 Electric Drive, which according to DaimlerChrysler/Mercedes research promises to be very effective incl on the highway. Should be interesting once it becomes available in about 2007.
 

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Regenerative braking...

DelJ - 3/26/2005 8:28 AM

I am not mistaken! Hybrids work by recapturing the kinetic energy of the vehicle during much of the braking and stores this energy for subsequent propulsion. It is not necessary for the brake pads to be touching the rotors during regenerative braking, in fact this would undermine the advantage of a hybrid vehicle.
It is true that regenerative braking does not require that the foot brake be depressed as it is active whenever the throttle pedal is released. However it is only used when coasting to a stop and does not slow down the vehicle that much at all. What simply happens is that the vehicle does not freewheel quite as readily as a regular non-hybrid vehicle. The motor which is ordinarily used to power the drive wheels simply reverses its function and becomes a generator. The brakes still do need to be used as usual as the motor/generator does not provide <i>that</i> much resistance.
 
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