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'01-E320 & 02-ST2
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Discussion Starter #1
Hey, folks.

This has kind of been on my mind lately and sorry for the "bait" subject, but in reality there is no MVP here. One of the things I've always liked about this forum is the underlying "us against the rest" feeling of camaraderie typically exhibited here. And with all due respect and in all honesty, every member of this forum is valuable to it. Each of us brings different experiences, interests, abilities and talents to the table and we all have the right to our opinions and decisions.

Unfortunately, it seems fairly recently there have been an increasing number of instances in which the "friendly disagreements" have turned, well, less than friendly. If you regularly frequent these pages I'm sure a few names will come to mind; sometimes they're on the defensive, sometimes trading jabs, sometimes just a nasty OT poke in an unrelated thread, but at the root getting sidetracked by emotion, personality, opinion and disputes about "facts".

I can't speak for everyone else here, but frankly, I for one am tired of it. I don't care if you are bad at math and think your car gets 46 mpg in city traffic while you drive with the trunk open, waiting 22,000 miles between oil changes with dino oil and paper-element oil filters. It's a free country and you're the one who gets to live with the consequences of your actions or inactions. Even when there is disagreement, there is no reason to berate one another or call each other names, is there? What good does it do?

I'm not sure all that follows from personalizing such disputes, but I can tell you two things it does: One, it makes new members question if they want to be here, and (2) it makes established members (well, many of them) disgusted. If you want to disagree, disagree -- but show some respect. No one is ever as dumb as they seem (no, not even me) and no one really knows everything about these cars, so why fight about it? Everyone here has chosen to drive one of the finest vehicles made. Even if that's all you can find to agree on, you can hang your hat there and still be polite and respectful. If you can't, use the ignore feature or flame the person through PMs (or better yet, check your ego at the login prompt and act like an adult). Be the bigger person, it's really not that difficult.:thumbsup:

Take care and enjoy the ride,
Greg
 

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91 560SEL(RIP),98 E320matic 230k baby!,98 C230,93 500Ehurt,Rover crawler,97 Vulcan,01 R1,02suzukiTLR
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55 Posts
Well said. I am fairly new here and I have issues with my car but now I will not post questions as there seems to be an uneasy tension and I don't want to get my lunch handed to me or have my skill level challenged. I am not a mechanic but my toys are my passion and I try to do everything without going to the stealer for help. I now look for help within the old posts and G-AMG has me covered with all his diy pictures. What I do is comment or question in an existing post and hope for the best...
 

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1994 E320 Wagon,1999 E320 Wagon,2000 E 320 Wagon, MGB Track/Rally, ,1988 300E ,more....
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6,019 Posts
Taking a stand

As a reply to the Editor: An open letter.
First endure a little story
We had a priest at our church that has since been moved up and is now the Bishop of the diocese,when he first came to our church 8 years ago he told this story.
He used to stand at the front of his old church on the steps and greet people every Sunday early mass with "Rejoice Christ has risen" and every Sunday people would shuffle in and barely smile.After several years of this a parishioner came up to him and said "Father, Sunday after Sunday you stand here and Shout ""Rejoice"" and no one ever changes or smiles,why father do you not stop? You will never change them." The Father said to the church member.My dear child you put this all wrong,if I stop with my greeting too Rejoice, it will be me that they have changed."
Now the letter,
knowledge. What makes it correct is really a matter of conviction in the quality of the source of information, and the references, its repeatability by experiment or its predictive power.
The vast majority of human information is opinion, whose correctness seems only to rely on how loudly it was said or how many times it was repeated.
If only more people cared about the difference."names will come to mind"

If as above you want us to to precede our posts with the disclaimer "in my opinion"That would be fine.At least forum members would be warned it was just that. Opinions
When I get a calls from members who relied on information from "names will come to mind" and they end up in a real jam,it bothers me.
Bad,poor,misguided,purely irrational information from whatever source "names will come to mind" is costing members thousands or tens of thousands of dollars daily.Poor advice or getting ripped off by a dealer is cause to call them the stealership or worse.Calling out or putting to task Bad,poor,or just plain dangerous information from someone who claims expertise"names will come to mind"is cause for kid gloves?
I happened to call a spade a spade ,if the reference to being the hind end of a horse was being uncivil so be it.They "names will come to mind" have been called a lot worse and deservedly so.Can't take the heat don't charge people $1000 for an alternator(dealership) or pass out total nonsense like
"You never need to change your brake fluid in California ""names will come to mind" When you do,you deserve to be called on it. Maybe to be more civil and put on kid gloves or being told"Don't trade barbs at "names will come to mind"[/B I should just put up one of these ball less little smilies :stupid: which seem to be tolerated in lieu of outright telling it like it is.If the Nation is going to all become a bunch of Wimps,there are a few of us left that won't stand on that side of the fence.
You are correct no member has more right or less right to their opinions than another, and when members joust over opinions, it is just that jousting.
When members pass off opinions based neither on creditable information,fact based ,repeatability or predictive power it is no longer being passed on as opinion it is being passed off as Knowledge.
YOU "names will come to mind" have mistaken one for the other.Continually letting not only unsubstantiated and dangerous opinion being passed on as knowledge,you "names will come to mind"have endured it to the point that no one can or in your mind should Challenge it.
I will put myself way down the list of people who saw further then others before them.Way ,way,way way down the list.However on some level either you take a stand for what is proven and works and is repeatable or you fall.
Galileo,Newton,Einstein and on down through the ages took a stand against opinion and with Proof changed the future of the world.My little part of the effort is taking a stand against Rip offs and "names will come to mind"
Nonsense. If I save one person from the bunkum at least I tried.
"It's a free country and you're the one who gets to live with the consequences of your actions or inactions" Is a fine sentiment. If your actions or inactions are just that,YOURS.
When passed on to others To whom it may affect their lives it should be based on more than "I am driving around with 20 year old brake fluid,so you should do it also."
Not challenging lack of knowledge and opinions stated as fact is a disservice to the Forum, it's members ,and it's credibility.
I ,like the priest will not change.You can edit my posts,remove them if you choose.Remember people sometimes follow His "names will come to mind" continually poor advice,and the members who call me after following said advice get hurt in the wallet,someday they may even be hurt or hurt others ,and those who stand for it are just as culpable.
Trying to change Him "names will come to mind" might be as useless as trying to change me.Editing a valuable post by removing it in its entirety and sending Stern warnings to "Don't trade barbs at "names will come to mind"is beyond the pale.As long as his"names will come to mind" antiquated,out dated and irresponsible information is passed out,it will be challenged.If it is accurate you will note I have no quibble.When Dangerous or ill advised I will speak up.
Defend his"names will come to mind" rights to tell his opinions of how to improperly and unsafely maintain an automobile.
Defend my rights also and don't try to censor me with warnings of
"Don't trade barbs at "names will come to mind" or editing posts where downright dangerous information was being opined as fact.If anything makes a new member question if they want to be here,it is not factual,accurate,and reliable information ,to the contrary it is the lack of it. I think that we have gotten more new members and long time members more enthused and charged up in their confidence to tackle jobs on the W210.A bunch of great members contribute to that enthusiasm That is what gets and keeps forum members.When forum members write,call,pm,and e-mail wanting to travel great distance to learn a hands on DIY ,the forum is working.When members of other Mercedes models drop in on our forum because they have searched the internet seeking help and they find it here and it gets them fired up to try something on their model that they never thought they could do,the forum is working.
You Guys "names will come to mind" threw out the Baby(factual information)instead of throwing out the dirty bath water.
I think it was Socrates who said:
Those who love truth in each thing are called lovers of wisdom and not lovers of opinion.
You ,"names will come to mind" have become the latter.

Rob aka ohlord:bowdown:
 

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86 560sec-168K -Ext. Light Ivory/Int. Black/01 E320 4Matic Wagon Brl Silver/Black/ Mad '95 Q45
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2003 Mercedes Benz E500
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668 Posts
Sorry, Greg...

but I have to side with ohlord on this one. There is one poster who does pander his anecdotal experience as if it was carved upon stone tablets and personally delivered to him on Mt. Sinai... When challenged, he gets belligerent, and at times downright "nasty".

In the past, I tried to be a gentleman and "take things private" via PM, and this particular individual took the matter right back to the public forum. When you were a moderator, you and I traded PMs on this issue.

I know you have met this individual and think he is an interesting guy, and perhaps he is; however, over time his on-line persona gets to people, and people weary to putting up with his "crap".

Ohlord, challenges this individual, and that is his choice. These days, I just don't bother posting to a thread in which this individual has posted. Life is too short. This also means that I post less and less.

This is an on-line forum, and sometimes written words appear to be more "harsh" than intended. At times, too, there are lingusitic difficulties relating to english being at least one poster's second, or third language. We all accept that.

No individual in infallible here, not ohlord, you, Greg, myself or the individual in question; the difference is three out of the four willingly admit this... the fourth, well, gets belligerent.

I appreciate the "Can't we all just get along" but for that to work, it needs to apply to ALL of us...

JR
 

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2013 VW Golf Sportwagen TDI, 2011 Mazda 2, 2000 E320 4Matic Wagon (retired),1994 C280 (retired)
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My opinion is that there is a difference between disagreeing on information, and allowing those disagreements become personal. I believe that personal attacks, insults, and demeaning or baiting comments, regardless of where they come from or what instigated them, demean us all. There is a big difference between being a passionate advocate for information you know/believe to be correct and allowing that advocacy to devolve into insults. This site has the Off Topic forum for people who wish to engage in no-holds-barred insults and flame wars. It is more than tolerated there, it is actively encouraged as part of the culture of that forum.

Ohlord, as you feel you are the intended recipient of this thread, let me say this: I believe you are exceptionally well-versed in W210 technical knowledge, quite possibly the strongest out of the posters I've seen since I've joined this site. You are also very willing to offer your advice and help to people, which is a great boon to this site. I have, however, noticed what I consider to be an insulting tone come from you on numerous occasions where it just wasn't necessary and where I couldn't see any instigation. I think you could come across a little less like that and even further increase the level of respect you enjoy amongst regular posters here.

Just my two cents.

Jonathan
 

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By all means challenge incorrect material being given up as facts.

You pass a line when you start bringing up things in UNRELATED discussions to make some point. You pass the line when you call another poster names, no matter what discussion you are in. There are other ways to pass the line, but in a nutshell, KEEP IT CIVIL.

You CAN do this while ALSO challenging what you think to be misinformation. I know that you can.
 

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1994 E320 Wagon,1999 E320 Wagon,2000 E 320 Wagon, MGB Track/Rally, ,1988 300E ,more....
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Noted jlomon

However sometimes the last straw is the last straw.When it got to the point of being accused of being to commercialized on the issue of transmission fluid changes and trying to make money off a part that is needed to do the change,that was the straw.Ask the members that I have spent hours on the phone with on my air time walking them through a diy.
ask the members who came to the diy spark plug tutorial what it cost them for the instructions on a blinding hot day? Zero.
I could go easier on a few noobs,I admit that.And as noted I will
Take crap from "names will come to mind" That is just not part of my being and neither should it be part of yours.
ohlord:bowdown:
 

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2013 VW Golf Sportwagen TDI, 2011 Mazda 2, 2000 E320 4Matic Wagon (retired),1994 C280 (retired)
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I could go easier on a few noobs,I admit that.And as noted I will
That's all I'm asking.

Take crap from "names will come to mind" That is just not part of my being and neither should it be part of yours.ohlord:bowdown:
Definitely not expecting that.

Thank you hearing my post the way it was intended. I appreciate that.
 

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98 E-320, 2003 E-500
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685 Posts
What??? Gregs210 doesn't want to fight??? Common now, it's fun to :argue:

I'd say amen to NO belittling others. Most of us are adults with family, we get that at home and work, we are here for some TLC. :D

To be fair, I think it's fine to share a person's experience. Whether it's wrong, impractical or against the spec to others, it has merit if what stated is true. After all, the USA didn't become a great country by staying within the line.

While I do follow recommended procedure, they are still recommended so there will be alternatives. Whoever want to explore it, my hat off to them.

To me, we can read up to see what's bad information vs personal experience and what's recommended and determine for ourself.
Maybe, the moderator (and knowledgeable mechanics) should help indicating which post or piece of information is not recommended.

Regards,
 

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97 E320, 04 230K, 06 R500
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189 Posts
I'm a newbie to the forum and I see what you’re talking about. It goes from a great topic to a hijacked post in seconds. CAN’T WE ALL GET ALONG!!! The only reason this forum exist is to help each other out……………Right?
 

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91 560SEL(RIP),98 E320matic 230k baby!,98 C230,93 500Ehurt,Rover crawler,97 Vulcan,01 R1,02suzukiTLR
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best poster? ohlord, hands down.
except for the last rambling post.
paul
Yea he is also a star. I could not read through that entire reply but myself and three other friends have boycotted another site for putting ohlord on probation. We have not logged on since they did that to someone who seems to always help others.
 

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1997 E320
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I'm not sure all that follows from personalizing such disputes, but I can tell you two things it does: One, it makes new members question if they want to be here, and (2) it makes established members (well, many of them) disgusted. If you want to disagree, disagree -- but show some respect. No one is ever as dumb as they seem (no, not even me) and no one really knows everything about these cars, so why fight about it? Everyone here has chosen to drive one of the finest vehicles made. Even if that's all you can find to agree on, you can hang your hat there and still be polite and respectful. If you can't, use the ignore feature or flame the person through PMs (or better yet, check your ego at the login prompt and act like an adult). Be the bigger person, it's really not that difficult.:thumbsup:
Hear hear, and a big ol' ditto from this Benzworld n00b.

I had to bite my own tongue to avoid commenting on those specific posters' off-topic tangents in the threads you are referencing. I'm glad that you have brought this to the board's attention.

I appreciate all of the opinions and knowledge that ALL of the posters here provide, though it is understood that any maintenance/repair that I do on my own is MY responsibility, and it is MY responsibility to pick the advice that makes the most sense to ME. If someone does something stupid to their car due to one bit of advice they got on the internet, they deserve whatever they get.

I do deeply respect Ohlord's contributions to this site, though I will admit that his long posting above smacks of self-righteousness. Of course, he has every right to feel that way, but it would be silly to think that this issue is a one-way street.

And remember, Fighting on an internet forum IS just like winning at the Special Olympics. (Win or Lose, you're both retards)
 

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Yea he is also a star. I could not read through that entire reply but myself and three other friends have boycotted another site for putting ohlord on probation. We have not logged on since they did that to someone who seems to always help others.
You're free to make decisions about your involvement in this way, but be advised that there is probably a story that you didn't see.

Helping others is not a prerequisite to joining this forum. You're completely free to do nothing but leach information. On the other hand, we do highly value input from people who are willing to put thought and time into helping others. Yes, Ohlord fits that description.

What we cannot do is allow things to degenerate into a contest at every opportunity.

Let me be completely frank and state that it means more work for me and Joe. While the work comes with the territory, please help make it easier on us.
 

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2001 E320 - Brilliant Silver/Ash: 107,000+
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Since Greg did not include a poll with this, I have to assume the topic of this thread was only meant to serve as an intro to his thread.

I have posted mis-information on our forum, and as far as I remember, was always corrected in a civil fashion. Quite often, I'm totally ignored but I'm O.K. with that. Once in a long while, I post something worth reading, and when I do I am paraphrasing something I read on here. Most of my mis-info is due to a "less than photographic" memory.

It doesn't take long before the members who really know their stuff become apparent. As someone said earlier, we do have a responsibility to separate the wheat from the chaff when reading advice here.
 

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E200 Kompressor 2001
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54 Posts
These forums are invaluable to mechanics, DIYers etc. It is great to be able to query things with professionally trained people and above all with those that have years of experience and hence know all the common problems which can save people thousands. Just remember this advice is all given free so we should be very grateful.

I fully agree about keeping to the facts and avoiding any personal rubbish,

Dont let the "few" kill it for the "many"

Cheers
MFK
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
Gents...(no women having yet chimed in here)...

1. I for one appreciate anecdotal experience. Invariably it is useful knowledge. Whether you can (or should) extrapolate from that may well be a different question, but again, the experience is useful. (Sometimes it is useful in the negative sense, too.)

2. No way would I ever want to quash a spirited discussion or debate. Nor did I suggest that. I'm definitely not a believer in "peace at all costs" which benefits no one (except maybe the mods, ;)). However, discussion and debate are not what I am talking about. Rather, from my perspective there is no room, rhyme or reason for bad-mouthing, name calling, etc. FWIW, such conduct is also prohibited by the terms of use for this site. As some of you know, one of the reasons I resigned as a moderator related in part to a lack of respect for the TOU (in another context). Accordingly, if someone feels they should be permitted to bad mouth another member -- for any reason -- I ultimately start to question their usefulness to this community.

3. I'll say it again a different way (this is opinion, not fact): no member here is more valuable than any other to the forum at large. Doubtless ohlord has helped many folks and I know G-AMG, raymond- and many, many others whose names populate not only the forum generally but also the DIY stickies have contributed much -- all for nothing more than wanting to help out others. That said, disrespect, insults and personal jabs are useless and puerile. They help no one (except perhaps the small-minded who want to inflate their own egos and importance).

4. There is an ocean of difference between disagreement (etc.) and insult (etc.).

5. Boycotting a site because of discipline against someone else who didn't want to abide by reasonable rules doesn't make too much sense -- at least to me. Some people actually enjoy being on a site that respects and enforces it's TOU and expects the same from its members. If you don't like the TOU, don't sign up. It is as simple as that. But arguing about discipline for someone who didn't respect the TOU perhaps means you think the TOU should be changed, but that is a different issue.

6. Being goaded by another member is not an excuse to react in kind. Period. Reporting abuse to a mod and requesting action is one appropriate response. Put another way: no one comes out on top in a spitting match: you both end up covered in spit and no one really wants to be around you.

7. Being a newbie or a long-time member is irrelevant. Treating people with a modicum of respect is always appropriate on a public forum.

8. Opinions and facts face a narrow boundary at times. As a simple example, let's look at an oil change. The FACT is that the oil needs to be changed. However, some choose to drain while others use a vacuum extraction method. In other words, they just suck. (Hey, it's a joke, okay? Just making the point here.) If done properly either is perfectly acceptable and which way to go is a matter of opinion and -- here it comes -- anecdotal experience, not fact. One method may work better or easier than the other for one person or another and there are points and considerations either way, but it remains a matter of opinion.

9. Elevating anecdotal experience and opinion to the level of firmly-held belief is fine; berating another as though it is a fact is completely different.

10. Rob, since you seem to be taking this personally, "taking a stand" doesn't mean backing down when you are right about the facts, but it still doesn't support or justify goading, insulting or belittling others. Nor do I expect you or anyone else to take any "crap" from another member. If you can't ignore it, report it and let the mods handle it. Feeling like you have the right to express yourself freely in the public forum and expecting the mods to clean up after you...well, you wouldn't let your kids mess up the kitchen and expect you to clean it up, right?

11. JeffreyP, I didn't necessarily say that MBs were in that group. :D

Take care and enjoy the ride,
Greg
 

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2001 SLK 320(217K Miles), 2002 E320 Special Edition(183K Miles)
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Boy, there must be something in the weather? Or is it due to the economy? No matter what, but even in the R170 forum there's a big fight on at the moment. :eek::crybaby2: So at least 2 forums at the same time!:eek::eek:

On a more serious note - this IS a free forum, so I think any advice should always be taken for what it's costing you. And while I believe it is sometimes good to stir a bit (I love doing it:D) , I think things should not get personal. And of course there is always more than one way to kill a cat (is that expression now non-PC?), so be willing to accept that other people may have a different view or method - this last NOT aimed at any particular person.
 
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