Warren T, you were right of course....

1347 Views 9 Replies 6 Participants Last post by Hipine, Mar 15, 2005

Hipine

Discussion Starter · Mar 13, 2005

Way back when you'd asked:

"...when automatic 110 engine leans to left, is this
the case with manual trans...."

At the time I said I didn't think so, but yesterday I noticed I was wrong.

I was making some measurements for a custom radiator (Why later), and as I stood 6 feet or so out in front of the truck, it was obvious the cam cover was not level, but tilted downward to the left as I was standing in front of the truck looking at the relationship of the cam cover to the upper radiator support. A little confirmation of the level-ness of the truck, and angle of the cam cover shows that tilt to be right at 5 degrees.

SO! If I use the trans and bell housing from my 280 on the 617.950 with proper motor mounts to set the engine level, my transmission will be tilted five degrees toward the driver. I don't think this will be any problem, judging by current clearances under there. And since the only remedy would be to try the fit of a 300GD bell housing onto my trans, I think I'll skip it.

But if anyone has a bell housing from a 4-speed 240 or 300 GD lying around (460.250.00.05) that they'd like to turn in to cash, let me know. I might like to keep it around for experimentation.

I've been flogging the EPC and other experts incessantly and as a result this swap is so close I can taste it. And I have a really high degree of confidence I can make it work really well.

Thanks to everyone for all your help and advice. I'm sure I'll be asking for more as time goes on.

-Dave G.

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Hipine

Discussion Starter · #2 · Mar 13, 2005

Cooling comments welcomed

Well, I was planning to follow BT's lead with regard to cooling the 617A. That is, have my rad re-cored byt the same guy who did his, and use the oil cooler from the 300GD (same one in my 280GE) for oil cooling. A few pieces of information have changed my tack for now.

1- BT was seeing his temp gauge get up to 3/4 when going up a long hill, un loaded in 60 degree F temps

2- The oil cooler I got still attached to the engine from the 116 chassis donor car is exactly twice as large as the oil cooler used by the 300GD and 280GE.

Considering that:
A- the 116's oil cooler won't fit next to the rad in the G without body modifications, and
B- the life blood of that 617A engine is the oil cooling of the pistons, so I'm inclined to give all the oil cooling MB intended
C- the rad in teh 116 is an 18"x20" 2-row radiator while my stock G rad is 18x20 3-row

I think my course of action will be to build a custom radiator that can dissipate the same or more heat as the stock 280GE rad, and fit in a package that's about 2" narrower than the stock G rad so I can fit the big oil cooler in there in th stock location next to the rad.

Thoughts?

-Dave G.

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sjtymko

· #3 · Mar 13, 2005

Dave,

When I was having cooling issues I took my rad in and was told that my rad was a 2 row (with wide rows) and I had it re-cored as a 3 row (narrower) "dipple core". The Dipple Core is supposed to cool better somehow (I forget) and has worked great. 30C+ days at 110kmh for hours WITH an auto in need of a re-build (slipping) also being cooled with it and it stayed at 90C all day. My oil temp (15/40 dino) has reached 120C from time to time but this has only been before the tranny re-build on the hottest days. I haven't had the opportunity to really test it since the tranny re-build (cold winter and the G is mostly parked getting repairs). I don't know which oil cooler I have but it measures about 2x4 inches on top and is about the hight of the rad (a bit shorter from what I can tell).

Steve

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Hipine

Discussion Starter · #4 · Mar 14, 2005

Interesting, Steve

From what you say, it sounds like the current setup in my 280 could handle the cooling needs of the turbodiesel.

Maybe I should follow my own "upgrade only as required" mantra. I should probably just throw in some decent coolant and oil temp gauges, and try it out with the cooling setup I have. It sure would take a lot of capital and screwing around out of the swap equasion.

Thanks again for your input!

-Dave G.

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AlanMcR

· #5 · Mar 15, 2005

RE: Interesting, Steve

A properly functioning G280 cooling system should easily handle the turbodiesel needs.

Look at it this way: You will be producing roughly the same peak power, but more efficiently. Wasted energy is lost in the cooling water and out the exhaust. Since the motor is now more efficient, the peak cooling needs will be less. At idle the diesel produces very little heat. So little, that in cold temperatures it won't stay fully warmed up. Long down hills can cool it off too. (Yes, I've checked my thermostat).

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warren t

· #6 · Mar 15, 2005

when converting to 617 turbo from 110 engine
i retained the 280 cooling system with no problems.
I even eliminated oil cooler by blocking ports
at oil filter housing and removing thermostat.
Also i removed fan from engine and instaled
electric A C fan in front of radiator which
is only needed on long uphill grades.
Proper thermostat and clean rad....no problem dave

CHEERS WARREN

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Hipine

Discussion Starter · #7 · Mar 15, 2005

Getting by with a little help from my friends

Thanks again guys!

Seems like Karl is the only "parade rainer" in the group, [

] putting the kaibash on my plan to swap to newer style motor mounts. But much better now than after I have $700 worth of parts in hand I can't use.

The old style aluminum arms for the motor are coming up NLA. Sean is lookng into it, and I'll probably call Europa.

I hope to pick up the flywheel today and take care of the balancing later this week.

Dominoes are falling.....

Thanks again for all your help, everyone!

-Dave G.

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Brent

· #8 · Mar 15, 2005

Dave, You will likely also find out that with some fuel tuning that you can control temps on the diesel. More fuel + more heat and natuarally the altitude screws with that as the air gets thinner. The gauge you really NEED is an exhaust gas temp with the thermocouple mounted pre-turbo somewhere in the exhaust manifold. This gauge is the diesel owners best friend. It will tell you if you are running too hot coming up the hill and it will tell you when the engine is cool enough to shut down after a hard run. By usning the EGT's as a guide you should be able to adjust the injection pump to run efficiently and keep overall engine temps down.

One other thought I was was the posibility of running not only the external oil cooler but if you are having a new radiator built how about running an oil cooler in the radiator? I suspect an auto tranny cooler might not be up to the pressures of pressurized engine oil but....I've never done a mod like that. I figured the up side would be more stable oil temps, quicker warm up, down sides??? possibility of oil and water mixing if the cooler fails.

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mb230s

· #9 · Mar 15, 2005

Brent - 3/15/2005 9:18 AM

Dave, You will likely also find out that with some fuel tuning that you can control temps on the diesel. More fuel + more heat and natuarally the altitude screws with that as the air gets thinner. The gauge you really NEED is an exhaust gas temp with the thermocouple mounted pre-turbo somewhere in the exhaust manifold. This gauge is the diesel owners best friend. It will tell you if you are running too hot coming up the hill and it will tell you when the engine is cool enough to shut down after a hard run. By usning the EGT's as a guide you should be able to adjust the injection pump to run efficiently and keep overall engine temps down.

One other thought I was was the posibility of running not only the external oil cooler but if you are having a new radiator built how about running an oil cooler in the radiator? I suspect an auto tranny cooler might not be up to the pressures of pressurized engine oil but....I've never done a mod like that. I figured the up side would be more stable oil temps, quicker warm up, down sides??? possibility of oil and water mixing if the cooler fails.

You still have the G55 trans cooler location to utilize (aft of the skid plate). The G55 puts the oil cooler in the bumper, but I assume either an oil cooler or trans cooler could occupy the skid plate location in your 460 TD conversion.

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Hipine

Discussion Starter · #10 · Mar 15, 2005

Gauges

Yep, EGT is in the plan. Though my local MB mechanic, who also hauls a 20k lb trailer with a powerstroke ford, tells me the MB diesel is VERY robust to overfueling....to the point you almost can't do it without crazy mods to the turbo and pump. He says, "Not like my Ford. With the chips and mods that are in that thing the pyrometer is all that's keeping me from melting down the engine if I so choose, hauling 20,000 lbs of tractors up Vail pass"

I found these gauges today. They're a little spendy but they're the only one I found so far with the ability to build a 6-gauge pack (volts, coolant temp, oil temp, oil pressure, boost, and pyrometer) of gauges with a common face layout. And a big bonus here - they're one of only two manufacturers I found that sell electrical gauges with 270 degree sweep. Most all are 90 degree sweep. I prefer the better accuracy of 270 degree sweep, but also want electrical gauges to keep all the fluids on the INSIDE of the engine. Another bonus of all 270 degree sweeps is they match the two "mechanical" gauges I'll have in the mix, the boost gauge and pyrometer.

http://www.egauges.com/vdo_grou.asp?Series=EVA&Cart=

Oh yeah, and as far as the cooling goes, I'm trying to keep it as stock as possible. I know I could do all sorts of custom stuff, but I'd rather avoid that if at all possible. And it looks from the posts of some pretty well-experienced folks that it's very doable with the 280's stock cooling setup. I think I'll start there and let the gauges guide further action as required.

-Dave G.

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