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1995 E320 Sedan
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Discussion Starter #121
You have less power going to your other speakers and more going to your door speakers than I do, so the balance between them will definitely be different. Maybe the gain on the amplifier for your other speakers can be bumped up a bit? Also, I don't know what you have for front speakers, but I have the Rainbows and they definitely sound much bigger than they actually are, at least with 75W going to them. I cut the bass out of the Rainbows at around 70 hz, but may go up a bit higher and see what happens.
I have ESX QUANTUM QE 120s these are drop in 4 inch replacements front and back. They were tuned by a shop nearby I will probably have to tweak them to get my result. They are playing mostly highs and not very much mids. Door play mids and sub plays lows. All I have to do are turn the volume down on the door speakers or even lower the frequency to just play bass.


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I would have to look at the vent flap more closely, but I doubt it will be possible to eliminate rattles there. Maybe some felt or something could be used, and maybe help, but the vent still needs to be able to function and it will probably be possible to completely eliminate the noise. I will say that my car has FAR less rattle noises from the back than other cars with subwoofers in the trunk, so there's that.
 

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You can always use the fader to lower the door volume and then adjust the amplifier gains to set the front and back where you want so they balance out.
 

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Thank you I have noticed those door speakers are kind of annoyingly loud, they hurt my ears almost sounds like a tweeter is built in even though I didn’t hook them up when I punch the other speakers these ones almost over power them, I am going to retune my entire system, but I think if I add some sort of inline resistor these will have more punch and less treble. I want them to play lower frequencies. Maybe I can turn the volume down on the front speakers so that they aren’t too loud and balance them, I will have to experiment to get my desired sound.
since the trunk is isolated from the passenger compartment with a gas tank and the back seat, it must take a hella lotta thumpa-thumpa in the trunk to be audible in the passenger compartment, the bass is probably louder outside the car than in. only way I'd consider putting woofers in the trunk of a 124 sedan would be if the bass ports of the woofer cabinets were ducted through holes cut into the rear 'parcel shelf'.
I agree with @LeftCoastGeek 's comments about the subwoofer. I have experience with my own w124's "sound system". (As opposed to the acktiv bass system). Please let me illustrate:

  • The anchor of the Mercedes "Sound System" are the door speakers, which have plastic chambers and fire directly into the front seats around your hip area. This is clearly a super suboptimal position for anything other than, say, 250Hz and lower, as these frequencies are less directional. What you want to do is ensure that human voice does not come out of whatever speakers you put in this location at all - if you have some of the singer's voice coming out of the area adjacent to your hips AND the dashboard, it will sound messed up. Cross these over at around 250Hz - super important.

  • The dashboard location is excellent for midrange and tweeters, as long as you take care to ensure that most of the sound is reflected off the windshield, which is at an angle that is not as acute as it is in modern cars. This is good b/c this means the sound can largely all be reflected to your ears. Select midrange drivers that can play as deep as possible --- say --- 250 Hz. You want to ensure all the voices come from the dashboard. Doing so will result in excellent imaging and "stage presence".

  • Back to the midbasses in the doors - It may be that once you get this running, you will find that low frequencies, say, below 70Hz are kind of lacking. It was the case for me (I use 6.5" midbasses). This took me many months to solve .... I realized the equipment was not the problem - it was some combination of standing waves / comb filtering that was a function of the cabin transfer function. If I moved my head to the passenger seat or to the rear seats, I realized that I could hear bass all the way down to 40 Hz, and quite well at that. But, in the driver's seat, bass seemed to roll off at 70Hz. The issue was that some combination of reflective dynamics caused low frequencies from L/R channels to cancel each other out below 70 Hz at the driver's seat --- the signal were not in phase below 70 Hz.

    After lots and lots of fiddling, I discovered that solution to this was to delay the left channel signal going to the driver's door midbasses by an additional 4.9 milliseconds to bring L/R channels' bass below 70Hz more in-phase. This really improved the bass in the driver's seat (so much that I equalized it down a little bit), to the detriment of the low bass in the passenger's seat. All is well though, I mostly drive alone. You can appreciate here why it is critical to ensure no human voices come out of the door speakers at this point ---- if they did, the introduction of 4.9ms delay would create all kinds of wonkiness to the imaging/stage.

  • After the above (which took me 9 months to figure out), I was extremely satisfied with the musicality and the bass coming out of the car. All the speakers are in the factory locations. There is no subwoofer, and the car does not need one. Had I not been patient with the midbass tuning, I could have taken the BRUTE FORCE approach and introduced a subwoofer to force the bass to be stronger. However, in my opinion, the bruce force method is an approach that I find is not needed --- of course this only matters if you really place emphasis on a car's originality w.r.t. the interior fittings, which I do. If you don't, then you can brute force away! :)
 

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Discussion Starter #125
I agree with @LeftCoastGeek 's comments about the subwoofer. I have experience with my own w124's "sound system". (As opposed to the acktiv bass system). Please let me illustrate:

  • The anchor of the Mercedes "Sound System" are the door speakers, which have plastic chambers and fire directly into the front seats around your hip area. This is clearly a super suboptimal position for anything other than, say, 250Hz and lower, as these frequencies are less directional. What you want to do is ensure that human voice does not come out of whatever speakers you put in this location at all - if you have some of the singer's voice coming out of the area adjacent to your hips AND the dashboard, it will sound messed up. Cross these over at around 250Hz - super important.

  • The dashboard location is excellent for midrange and tweeters, as long as you take care to ensure that most of the sound is reflected off the windshield, which is at an angle that is not as acute as it is in modern cars. This is good b/c this means the sound can largely all be reflected to your ears. Select midrange drivers that can play as deep as possible --- say --- 250 Hz. You want to ensure all the voices come from the dashboard. Doing so will result in excellent imaging and "stage presence".

  • Back to the midbasses in the doors - It may be that once you get this running, you will find that low frequencies, say, below 70Hz are kind of lacking. It was the case for me (I use 6.5" midbasses). This took me many months to solve .... I realized the equipment was not the problem - it was some combination of standing waves / comb filtering that was a function of the cabin transfer function. If I moved my head to the passenger seat or to the rear seats, I realized that I could hear bass all the way down to 40 Hz, and quite well at that. But, in the driver's seat, bass seemed to roll off at 70Hz. The issue was that some combination of reflective dynamics caused low frequencies from L/R channels to cancel each other out below 70 Hz at the driver's seat --- the signal were not in phase below 70 Hz.

    After lots and lots of fiddling, I discovered that solution to this was to delay the left channel signal going to the driver's door midbasses by an additional 4.9 milliseconds to bring L/R channels' bass below 70Hz more in-phase. This really improved the bass in the driver's seat (so much that I equalized it down a little bit), to the detriment of the low bass in the passenger's seat. All is well though, I mostly drive alone. You can appreciate here why it is critical to ensure no human voices come out of the door speakers at this point ---- if they did, the introduction of 4.9ms delay would create all kinds of wonkiness to the imaging/stage.

  • After the above (which took me 9 months to figure out), I was extremely satisfied with the musicality and the bass coming out of the car. All the speakers are in the factory locations. There is no subwoofer, and the car does not need one. Had I not been patient with the midbass tuning, I could have taken the BRUTE FORCE approach and introduced a subwoofer to force the bass to be stronger. However, in my opinion, the bruce force method is an approach that I find is not needed --- of course this only matters if you really place emphasis on a car's originality w.r.t. the interior fittings, which I do. If you don't, then you can brute force away! :)
Ok my front and rear dash speakers are four 4” esx quantum qe 120s. Each speaker has a built in 13 mm built in Mylar neodymium Tweeter and the frequency range for each speaker is 72-22000Hz. They are each rated at 80w rms and max of 160w at 4 ohms. The amp powering them is a kenwood kac 304 which put out about 200w rms combined to 4 channels at 4 ohms. The crossovers are set at the max the amp can put out which is 200hz at a 12 dB octave. I could probably turn the crossover off on the amp and use my head units.

Ok now my stereo/head unit is a jvc kd-x340bts it puts out 22w rms, I have tested it with an smd distortion detector, the pre-amp outputs don’t distort till the volume 34,35. 35 is the max of the radio. And the speaker outputs distort at volume 31 at 40hz and volume 26 at 1khz.

Then I have two door speakers hooked up directly to the head unit, these are Rockford Fosgate R165-S Component speakers that are hooked up directly to the head unit, here are the specs for these speakers:

Midrange Size (Nominal Diameter) 6.5"
Midrange Mounting Depth 1.97" (50.1 mm)
Tweeter Size (Nominal Diameter) 0.5" (13 mm)
Tweeter Mounting Depth 1.06" (26.88 mm)
Power Handling (RMS) 40 Watts RMS, 80 Watts Max
Grille/Trim Ring Included Yes
Mounting Hardware Yes
Shipping Weight 5 Lbs. (2.26 kg)
Speaker Type Component System
Frequency Response (Hz) 60Hz - 20kHz
Crossover Tweeter High-Pass (HP): 4.5kHz @ 6dB/octave
CEA-2031 Compliant
Nominal Impedance (Ohms) 4-Ohm
Sensitivity (dB @ 1W/1M) 89. All the head units equalizers and crossovers are off.

Now let’s talk about the subs there are two 12 inch skars ix-12s loaded into a vented box. These put out 500w rms and are powered by a Jbl Club 5501 that puts out about 650w rms. The subs are tuned with a LPF at 80hz.

Now my issue is basically only the door speakers, every other speaker sounds pretty balanced, but I didn’t hook up the tweeters in the 6.5 inch component door speakers and they still play some high notes, the issue is when I try to adjust the frequency on the stereo it controls the rest of the car speakers screwing up the sound. I heard about capacitors that I can put in between the speaker wire to the radio that could work as crossovers to make the door speakers play lower notes.


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Discussion Starter #126
[*]The dashboard location is excellent for midrange and tweeters, as long as you take care to ensure that most of the sound is reflected off the windshield, which is at an angle that is not as acute as it is in modern cars. This is good b/c this means the sound can largely all be reflected to your ears. Select midrange drivers that can play as deep as possible --- say --- 250 Hz. You want to ensure all the voices come from the dashboard. Doing so will result in excellent imaging and "stage presence".


[*]Back to the midbasses in the doors - It may be that once you get this running, you will find that low frequencies, say, below 70Hz are kind of lacking. It was the case for me (I use 6.5" midbasses). This took me many months to solve .... I realized the equipment was not the problem - it was some combination of standing waves / comb filtering that was a function of the cabin transfer function. If I moved my head to the passenger seat or to the rear seats, I realized that I could hear bass all the way down to 40 Hz, and quite well at that. But, in the driver's seat, bass seemed to roll off at 70Hz. The issue was that some combination of reflective dynamics caused low frequencies from L/R channels to cancel each other out below 70 Hz at the driver's seat --- the signal were not in phase below 70 Hz.

After lots and lots of fiddling, I discovered that solution to this was to delay the left channel signal going to the driver's door midbasses by an additional 4.9 milliseconds to bring L/R channels' bass below 70Hz more in-phase. This really improved the bass in the driver's seat (so much that I equalized it down a little bit), to the detriment of the low bass in the passenger's seat. All is well though, I mostly drive alone. You can appreciate here why it is critical to ensure no human voices come out of the door speakers at this point ---- if they did, the introduction of 4.9ms delay would create all kinds of wonkiness to the imaging/stage.


[*]After the above (which took me 9 months to figure out), I was extremely satisfied with the musicality and the bass coming out of the car. All the speakers are in the factory locations. There is no subwoofer, and the car does not need one. Had I not been patient with the midbass tuning, I could have taken the BRUTE FORCE approach and introduced a subwoofer to force the bass to be stronger. However, in my opinion, the bruce force method is an approach that I find is not needed --- of course this only matters if you really place emphasis on a car's originality w.r.t. the interior fittings, which I do. If you don't, then you can brute force away! :)
[/LIST][/QUOTE]

My system sounds pretty good as it is but I definitely could be better, and my sub used to be as low as it was in the car but after insulation it is louder in the car than it is outside.



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Ok my front and rear dash speakers are four 4” esx quantum qe 120s. Each speaker has a built in 13 mm built in Mylar neodymium Tweeter and the frequency range for each speaker is 72-22000Hz. They are each rated at 80w rms and max of 160w at 4 ohms. The amp powering them is a kenwood kac 304 which put out about 200w rms combined to 4 channels at 4 ohms. The crossovers are set at the max the amp can put out which is 200hz at a 12 dB octave. I could probably turn the crossover off on the amp and use my head units.

Ok now my stereo/head unit is a jvc kd-x340bts it puts out 22w rms, I have tested it with an smd distortion detector, the pre-amp outputs don’t distort till the volume 34,35. 35 is the max of the radio. And the speaker outputs distort at volume 31 at 40hz and volume 26 at 1khz.

Then I have two door speakers hooked up directly to the head unit, these are Rockford Fosgate R165-S Component speakers that are hooked up directly to the head unit, here are the specs for these speakers:

Midrange Size (Nominal Diameter) 6.5"
Midrange Mounting Depth 1.97" (50.1 mm)
Tweeter Size (Nominal Diameter) 0.5" (13 mm)
Tweeter Mounting Depth 1.06" (26.88 mm)
Power Handling (RMS) 40 Watts RMS, 80 Watts Max
Grille/Trim Ring Included Yes
Mounting Hardware Yes
Shipping Weight 5 Lbs. (2.26 kg)
Speaker Type Component System
Frequency Response (Hz) 60Hz - 20kHz
Crossover Tweeter High-Pass (HP): 4.5kHz @ 6dB/octave
CEA-2031 Compliant
Nominal Impedance (Ohms) 4-Ohm
Sensitivity (dB @ 1W/1M) 89. All the head units equalizers and crossovers are off.

Now let’s talk about the subs there are two 12 inch skars ix-12s loaded into a vented box. These put out 500w rms and are powered by a Jbl Club 5501 that puts out about 650w rms. The subs are tuned with a LPF at 80hz.

Now my issue is basically only the door speakers, every other speaker sounds pretty balanced, but I didn’t hook up the tweeters in the 6.5 inch component door speakers and they still play some high notes, the issue is when I try to adjust the frequency on the stereo it controls the rest of the car speakers screwing up the sound. I heard about capacitors that I can put in between the speaker wire to the radio that could work as crossovers to make the door speakers play lower notes.


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In general, try not to have two speakers at very different locations reproduce the same sound. That will make imaging/stage presence very weird ---- and you won't know that its weird until you make it UNWEIRD, at which point you will realize that it was previously very weird!

Just a friendly suggestion from me if you are interested in tinkering around ----

  • Try to make you dash speakers go from 250 Hz on up
  • Try to make your door speakers go from 80Hz - 250Hz
  • Keep your sub at 80 Hz and below
 

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1995 E320 Sedan
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Discussion Starter #128
In general, try not to have two speakers at very different locations reproduce the same sound. That will make imaging/stage presence very weird ---- and you won't know that its weird until you make it UNWEIRD, at which point you will realize that it was previously very weird!

Just a friendly suggestion from me if you are interested in tinkering around ----

  • Try to make you dash speakers go from 250 Hz on up
  • Try to make your door speakers go from 80Hz - 250Hz
  • Keep your sub at 80 Hz and below
Hey I was just wondering if any of you guys know a very small pocket sized 2 channel amp I can buy that puts out anywhere from 30-50w rms per channel at 4 ohms. Also one that lets me use high level inputs and has a 200hz low pass filter. I was thinking of adding a third mini amp under the rear seats right next to the vacuum lock system pump. I really want to be push max power out of the doors and have them play up to 200hz


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Discussion Starter #129
In general, try not to have two speakers at very different locations reproduce the same sound. That will make imaging/stage presence very weird ---- and you won't know that its weird until you make it UNWEIRD, at which point you will realize that it was previously very weird!

Just a friendly suggestion from me if you are interested in tinkering around ----

  • Try to make you dash speakers go from 250 Hz on up
  • Try to make your door speakers go from 80Hz - 250Hz
  • Keep your sub at 80 Hz and below
Ok so I have tried to follow this guide and i am not satisfied. I unplugged my door speakers to factor them out and they aren’t an issue. So my dash speakers are tuned to play above 200hz, there is a hpf front and rear. The issue is when I turn the volume up the claps in the music hurt my ears. The system sounds worse than it did before. I had a professional tune then and it sounded better. Then I tried to re set the gains and re tune and it sounded worse. I have tried messing with the built in stereo equalizer and end up making everything sound worse.


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would you like a bigger shovel? I'm not sure that hole is deep enough yet.
how is this remotely helpful. The guy is learning. If you have nothing constructive to add, move the **** along.
 

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Ok so I have tried to follow this guide and i am not satisfied. I unplugged my door speakers to factor them out and they aren’t an issue. So my dash speakers are tuned to play above 200hz, there is a hpf front and rear. The issue is when I turn the volume up the claps in the music hurt my ears. The system sounds worse than it did before. I had a professional tune then and it sounded better. Then I tried to re set the gains and re tune and it sounded worse. I have tried messing with the built in stereo equalizer and end up making everything sound worse.
In my experience, aftermarket car audio is 30 percent equipment selection / installation and 70 percent tuning. To give you an example, I installed some nice gear in my w124 in August of 2019. Installation was the fast and easy part. You can find some threads here that document my installation.

After on and off tuning with a real time analyzer for a month and then with my ears for seven months, I am finally exceedingly pleased with the result. It look lots of fiddling with crossovers, time alignment and delay, and EQ to get it right. I went through over 150 configuration iterations. I also learned a lot about the process.

If you are serious about sound quality, I would start here - Basic Guide-read this before posting

In fact, that whole forum is a very good place to start. Please do recognize that adding equipment at the car often times is like trying to learn physics without learning the calculus behind it. You might stumble across the right solution, but you might struggle to understand why.

I believe this is what @LeftCoastGeek is trying to intimate, in a more succinct way. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #133
In my experience, aftermarket car audio is 30 percent equipment selection / installation and 70 percent tuning. To give you an example, I installed some nice gear in my w124 in August of 2019. Installation was the fast and easy part. You can find some threads here that document my installation.

After on and off tuning with a real time analyzer for a month and then with my ears for seven months, I am finally exceedingly pleased with the result. It look lots of fiddling with crossovers, time alignment and delay, and EQ to get it right. I went through over 150 configuration iterations. I also learned a lot about the process.

If you are serious about sound quality, I would start here - Basic Guide-read this before posting

In fact, that whole forum is a very good place to start. Please do recognize that adding equipment at the car often times is like trying to learn physics without learning the calculus behind it. You might stumble across the right solution, but you might struggle to understand why.

I believe this is what @LeftCoastGeek is trying to intimate, in a more succinct way. :)
Yes this is more of a desirable answer, thank you. I have been tweaking and it sounds a million times better. I think the issue was before was that my dash speakers over powered everything and I couldn’t hear the sub. I turned the gains down on the 4 channel amp. And the dash spekaers are playing 200hz and above.My sub is playing below 80hz. I am really happy with it now. My last problem is looking how to put a crossover on the door speakers. I can’t set them on the head unit because it messes with the dash speakers too. So I need a separate 2 channel amp probably, with high level inputs and 40w rms per channel. I want the smallest amp I can get my hands on that pushes these ratings. So I could hide it somewhere without much hassle. Thank you again.


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Discussion Starter #134
would you like a bigger shovel? I'm not sure that hole is deep enough yet.
Doesn’t help, but you never did anything about your door speakers, I like to keep asking questions and doing research till I solve my problem. I don’t just give up. The advice I’ve been give kinda helped, but I have done a majority of the work. Audio is very unique to the people that listen to it. There are people who listen to classical and then people who listen to hard bass hip hop. I listen to that hard bass hip hop. So yes, I will need a way bigger shovel.


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Discussion Starter #136 (Edited)
Ok I want to knock this project out once and for all so I can move on to the More serious things(my cooling system). So I found this amp called the Taramps DS 160X2 which is literally the smallest amp I could find. So it pushes out about 45w rms which is perfect for my application, my Fosgates are rated at 40w. Unfortunately it doesn’t have a controllable gain or crossover. So I am basically stuck at 45w. I have found some inline crossovers, but they have to be able to take amplified high level power outputs after the amp. The only one I could find was a 100hz lpf. Right now my dash speakers have a hpf of about 120hz and everything sounds good. I remember when I put them at 200 it just hurt my ears and doesn’t sound that good. This is what the final result would be: Dual 12” Subs- 25-80hz, box tuned to 40hz (35 recommended)-500w
Door speakers 6.5” 60hz-100hz-90w
Coaxial Dash speakers 4” with built in 13mm tweeters.100hz to 22khz-200w
These are also all rms combined power ratings The amps are putting out I basically will have a combined 800w rms speaker system once done. So is this a good idea or should I find another solution? If anyone can find a better amp with built in crossovers I would greatly appreciate it. I want it as small as possible.


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Discussion Starter #137
Update: the best I can do know is

Dual 12” Subs- 25-80hz, box tuned to 40hz (35 recommended)-500w
Door speakers 6.5” 60hz-120hz-90w
Coaxial Dash speakers 4” with built in 13mm tweeters.120hz to 22khz-200w


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