[glepore]

The good news is that here in the US good use diffs are available for between 150-300 USD. Since the same diff was also used in some s500's they're not rare. I'd still reseal a good used diff, but even doing that its not a killer fix. I can't figure why a rebuilt unit is more than a rebuilt 722.6 here in the states though.

And yes, I think we can agree that they leak. I doubt it's just a 600 problem, as the diff's are identical across the line.

I myself am more concerned about what happens to the coax if you disturb the harness to replace a knock sensor. Having two of these beasts, I worry 2x.

 

[Steve_B]

I'm not denying others needed plenty of work too but yours has the longest list of repairs, and seemed to have all the major work needed. Others myself included, have come to maybe 3/4 your list, at most.

That's all I'm trying to say.

I've heard of an S600 here that needed a tonne of engine work done after the owner hydraulic locked the engine from a coolant leak and bent the crank.

You're right. HG leaks really are common enough to be a "buyer beware" problem.

I guess we can make it official:

If you are buying a M120 equipped car, check very thoroughly for HG coolant leaks. They can be very slow and hidden from view

also:

Genuine low mileage cars are prone to diff leaks.

Hi Joe:
I am not denying that my list is the longest. But it is because of ME.
I replaced tons of parts that others would have left in service and was not unwilling to come forward and admit it.

Basically, if it were an wear item, regardless of the condition, it was replaced if I had gotten to it.

And I am willing to bet on it -- if everyone is replacing LCA bushings at this point (ca. 20 years old, regardless of mileage), the differential and propshaft mounts are not far behind and we will see a lot more happening in this department.

The diff. output seals are another hidden "gem", I am almost sure. This is not unique to MB by any stretch of imagination. And as I said, check what is the status quo on the w124/w126s. The side close to the exhaust will be first to go.

I've owned an Audi A8 (D2) since 2004. The final drive lip seal is near the cats and gets cooked pretty good. I am now on seal #3 and this issue is very well documented among the Audi freaks.
Did I mention that the differential output shaft seals are also KNOWN to weep? But, I will give Audi the credit to design it intelligently enough so a single person can do both sides in one afternoon...

BTW, my A8 has just over 170000 miles, which probably means that the seals are not necessarily a low mileage-related malady (at least on the Audi, I have no prior experience with MB).

Best regards,
Steve

PS Next time you have your car(s) on the lift, check you propshaft bearing support/mount. And NO, the cracks and the hardened rubber will not be evident until you have the part in your hand.
You'll thank me later .... )

 

[Steve_B]

The good news is that here in the US good use diffs are available for between 150-300 USD. Since the same diff was also used in some s500's they're not rare. I'd still reseal a good used diff, but even doing that its not a killer fix.

It is not a killer if you pay someone to do it.
From a DIY point of view, unless you have a lift and proper tools, removing the differential support (particularly the several bolts I referred to in earlier posts -- post #6 and post #7) is a NIGHTMARE.

Best regards,
Steve

 

[anziani]

While Steve lists my replacement parts I no way feel that what I did was major (except for the engine harness). Various sensors were moderately priced and easily obtainable. Thinking back on my 5 other Mercedes, none of them required a transmission rebuild or any serious repairs. I've always said that the NORMAL things you replace are not much more expensive than those on a Toyoter. It is the electronic whizzbangs that start running up the bill. That is why I have quit at the late '90's cars. I don't need "lane departure" or "sudden stop" warnings. I have a magnificent, 400HP luxury cruiser that generates questions by bystanders in the parking lots. All of my other Mercedes cost about $2K$ a year in repairs. The longest running (to my knowledge) is my first, a '87 300E with over 320K on the original engine and transmission. So if I take 2 of those 6 cylinder engines and put them on a common crank, I should get 600K. :eclipsee_steering:
I think Steve ran into his troubles because his car is one of the first roll outs while mine is close to the end. A great discussion guys and admit it, a 12 cylinder Mercedes engine is a complicated work of art!
Anziani

 

[Steve_B]

While Steve lists my replacement parts I no way feel that what I did was major (except for the engine harness). Various sensors were moderately priced and easily obtainable.

Neil:
It depends. Many could argue that pulling the intakes on the M120 engine or replacing the accumulators are both major jobs.

And for the record -- the single, MOST EXPENSIVE part I have on my list is the harmonic balancer (rebuild for just over $300).
Everything else was less. Compared to the other cars I've owned, I can say that most w140 parts are AFFORDABLE and EASILY AVAILABLE.

I think Steve ran into his troubles because his car is one of the first roll outs while mine is close to the end.

I respectfully disagree. Someone interjected earlier and made similar remarks. I don't think it is true. The early w140 may have their fair share of problems with transmission (and the wiring in the engine bay), but the late ones are not immune from decay in similar areas.

I much rather do a 722.3 rebuild every now and then, vs living in constant fear of P0441 (DTC for small leak/incorrect purge flow in the emission control system (EVAP)).
In the State where I live, OBD-II cars are scanned annually. Engine can be running as smooth as possible , but with P0441 flagged, you can't get the registration renewed. Smoking and fixing leaks in the EVAP system is not easy or cheap, ask Martin.

Anyhow, looking it holistically, those cars (early or late V12s) appear to have never been understood and appreciated for what they are -- joy to ride, but expensive to keep. New or old.
Expecting a repair bill for a 4-banger from something this complex is a sure way to the crusher (where many are today).

Best regards,
Steve

 

[Joe-V12]

Steve, ignoring all the rubbers & suspension and minor problems, your car had engine oil leaks, bad wiring, diff leaks, bad trans & HG leak. It's simply not normal buyer experience to have all those major issues, all at once. Only major issue it doesn't have is evaporator core. That's why I think your car is a unique case, I don't think it is just because of you. If you disagree then ok.

My 600 comes close, but I've also done ~12,000miles in 2 years. It was of the road for ~10 months. It still needs the trans rebuilt, and am yet to correct my KS wiring after my failed attempt, but I can still drive it hard.

Only major issue with my 1998 S420 (136,000 miles when I bought it) was the trans, been daily driving it for over 2 years, done ~38,000 miles in that time. I did not even replace the flexdisk and the prop shaft rubber support looked fine. I think the engine mounts were already recently done. It had a small list of items but nothing that needed the car off the road. It took me 6 weeks to source the correct thermostat due to various reasons,longest it's been off the road since transmission.

My late 1995 built S500 120,000 miles needed some balljoints, steering idler arm and engine mounts, cam oilers and a long list of small tedious items. Nothing major. Exterior wise it has seen a lot of weather. It has a slow seepage on the steering box and rear seal on transmission.

My 1996 S280 needed trans rebuilt, and had an oil cooler leak. Fixing oil cooler leak actually required a lot of work so I replaced water pump, water hoses and oil/water seals on the way.

Things like trans mount, shocks, voltage reg, water hoses, rebuilt PS/Tandem pump are common, not even worth mentioning.

Re. diff leaks I've owned 5 med-high mileage cars, no leaks on any of them.

Sydney W140 club member bought a 1994 S600, 85,000 miles. No issues, no leaks, nothing, not even the common engine oil leaks. He is restoring the interior from previous smoker owner and got the body 2-tone repainted to one tone. Maybe some rubbers are cracked and he has ordered in new engine mounts and other common wear items but that's all preventative. I've driven that car at 125mph, it's a dream.

Anyway, we have different perspectives.

 

[NZJay]

Cars are always in a state of decay so everyone going to have different views on when\if to replace things. Most real car enthusiasts suffer from mission creep, but when you got a car like a W140 most people have to draw a line somewhere. If i was planning on keeping the car for the foreseeable future then id fix\replace all i could without worrying about the cost.

The only parts on my car that had actually failed are : 1 ETC sensor, Viscous fan, T-stat, Upper rear shocks mounts (approx 500 USD)

All the rest of the money spent was on servicing, refreshing & upgrading items and cosmetics. I've probably spend at least a few hundred USD on shipping.

 

[bnZE430/1999]

GREAT WRITE UP!!!

Sad, my cars need all of this done too. I've got the parts... I've got the tools... I've got benzworld... but I've got no time and it's a money pit no doubt; nonetheless, I still love it.

 

[Steve_B]

Steve, ignoring all the rubbers & suspension and minor problems, your car had engine oil leaks, bad wiring, diff leaks, bad trans & HG leak. It's simply not normal buyer experience to have all those major issues, all at once. Only major issue it doesn't have is evaporator core. That's why I think your car is a unique case, I don't think it is just because of you. If you disagree then ok.

My 600 comes close, but I've also done ~12,000miles in 2 years. It was of the road for ~10 months. It still needs the trans rebuilt, and am yet to correct my KS wiring after my failed attempt, but I can still drive it hard.

Only major issue with my 1998 S420 (136,000 miles when I bought it) was the trans, been daily driving it for over 2 years, done ~38,000 miles in that time. I did not even replace the flexdisk and the prop shaft rubber support looked fine. I think the engine mounts were already recently done. It had a small list of items but nothing that needed the car off the road. It took me 6 weeks to source the correct thermostat due to various reasons,longest it's been off the road since transmission.

My late 1995 built S500 120,000 miles needed some balljoints, steering idler arm and engine mounts, cam oilers and a long list of small tedious items. Nothing major. Exterior wise it has seen a lot of weather. It has a slow seepage on the steering box and rear seal on transmission.

My 1996 S280 needed trans rebuilt, and had an oil cooler leak. Fixing oil cooler leak actually required a lot of work so I replaced water pump, water hoses and oil/water seals on the way.

Things like trans mount, shocks, voltage reg, water hoses, rebuilt PS/Tandem pump are common, not even worth mentioning.

Re. diff leaks I've owned 5 med-high mileage cars, no leaks on any of them.

Sydney W140 club member bought a 1994 S600, 85,000 miles. No issues, no leaks, nothing, not even the common engine oil leaks. He is restoring the interior from previous smoker owner and got the body 2-tone repainted to one tone. Maybe some rubbers are cracked and he has ordered in new engine mounts and other common wear items but that's all preventative. I've driven that car at 125mph, it's a dream.

Anyway, we have different perspectives.

Hi Joe:
Thank you again for contributing to this lively discussion.

We have the SAME perspectives, actually. What I don't understand is, why you keep bringing the wiring, failed reverse and head gasket leaks -- we already agreed that those are not unique. You put it in bold as a warning to future buyers just 2 days ago....

Or the engine oil leaks? As far as I am concerned, ALL V12s leak oil. Please prove me wrong.
As I said, I am a first time MB owner, but I did spend YEARS and THOUSAND of $$$ looking for THE ONE. Attached is a *partial* list of the cars I'd considered. At least 1/3 of those I'd seen in person and inspected closely, the 1993 600SEL Lorinser (on ebay, I bid on it and almost got it but the seller disclosed that the cats had melted and repairs were done in 2014 -- invoice attached).
Later I found that this car received mixed comments on BW

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w140-s-class/1869977-1993-600sel-lorinser-import-cl-not.html


The Canadian 1994 coupe I saw (Delaware to Florida one way ticket, the dealer had convinced me that this is the best of the best, but got a bad vibe at the dealership and had to rent a one-way car on the way back. Look it up on the map -- yes, I know I am crazy)

My point is -- there wasn't a SINGLE one that I saw up close or the sellers send me pictures that had a dry belly. Not even the most pristine, well-cared, dealer-serviced and priced well above what I was willing to pay.

What else do you want me to do to make you stop saying it?

Best regards,
Steve

PS The reason I bought my car, out of about 50 I saw, the one with the bad transmission is that it was 100% ORIGINAL and the engine was running super smooth, even with a bad wiring -- I knew repairs will be needed and I did NOT want to fix someone's botched job. The PO using wrong fluid in the SLS system is a good example of what I mean (would have been much simpler).

PPS My ONLY regret is that I found out about the external head gasket leak much later in the game -- could have negotiated the price. Look at the RARE EXTERNAL HEAD GASKET thread -- at that time, I did believe that my case is unique because the forums are mute on this subject

 

[Steve_B]

GREAT WRITE UP!!!

Sad, my cars need all of this done too. I've got the parts... I've got the tools... I've got benzworld... but I've got no time and it's a money pit no doubt; nonetheless, I still love it.

Amen!

Best regards,
Steve

 

[Joe-V12]

Steve, here is the deep inner workings of my 140 brain that I have failed to communicate:

Do W/C140s have common major problems? Yes.
It is common to have all/most common major problems at same time? No.
It is rare to have all/most common major problems at same time? Very.
^ your car falls in this last category.

That's all.

Great fun discussion, great info too.

 

[Steve_B]

Steve, here is the deep inner workings of my 140 brain that I have failed to communicate:

Do W/C140s have common major problems? Yes.
It is common to have all/most common major problems at same time? No.
It is rare to have all/most common major problems at same time? Very.
^ your car falls in this last category.

That's all.

Great fun discussion, great info too.

Hi Joe:

True, true. Unfortunately, you fail to recognize the fact that within the last 2 years I did fix all these (common) problems, but whether or not they appeared at the same time is debatable.

What made you conclude that the engine (external coolant leak) and the transmission (lost reverse first, and then all other functions) problems occurred together? Or the output shaft seals....????

And speaking of weeping seals in the back, while compiling the list of cars yesterday, I did see in my archives that I had a list of the common problems, which was put together in 2006.

Notice the highlighted statement. The oldest w140 at that time must have been 15 years old, the youngest 7 or 8. I wonder where did it come from...???

Perhaps it is time for all of us to get the skeletons out of the closet.

There is nothing wrong with loving dearly your w140 and admitting its faults/shortcomings.

Best regards,
Steve

EDIT: The quote with common problems I referred to is not mine -- it came from this website:
http://www.mbclub.co.uk/forums/general-discussion/28933-common-faults-w140-s500.html

 

[Steve_B]

Steve, here is the deep inner workings of my 140 brain that I have failed to communicate:

Do W/C140s have common major problems? Yes.
It is common to have all/most common major problems at same time? No.
It is rare to have all/most common major problems at same time? Very.
^ your car falls in this last category.

That's all.

Great fun discussion, great info too.

Joe:
Your w140 brain will love this -- a celebrity owned 1999 S600 that I almost got. The QUEEN of the "garage queens" with only 27,000 miles at the time of the sale.

Check out please the attached PDF. Page 2, the highlighted area. The car was 8 years old and had approx. 20,000 miles.

That's all )

Steve

 

[Joe-V12]

Hi Joe:

True, true. Unfortunately, you fail to recognize the fact that within the last 2 years I did fix all these (common) problems, but whether or not they appeared at the same time is debatable.

What made you conclude that the engine (external coolant leak) and the transmission (lost reverse first, and then all other functions) problems occurred together? Or the output shaft seals....????

And speaking of weeping seals in the back, while compiling the list of cars yesterday, I did see in my archives that I had a list of the common problems, which was put together in 2006.

Notice the highlighted statement. The oldest w140 at that time must have been 15 years old, the youngest 7 or 8. I wonder where did it come from...???

Perhaps it is time for all of us to get the skeletons out of the closet.

There is nothing wrong with loving dearly your w140 and admitting its faults/shortcomings.

Best regards,
Steve

No I didn't assume or conclude that about your car, at all. Quite the opposite.

Typically problems get fixed as they arise, if they arise, unless the owner is running the car into the ground.

Your posted Carfax confirms that the owner of that car fixed a HG issue and did not ignore it. Also in that time the car failed to pass emissions various times but there was no mentioned diff leak, trans problem, wiring problem, engine oil leaks or evap core problem.

Edit: Re. Diff, if I agreed that every W140 diff leaks I'd be lying.

 

[Steve_B]

No I didn't assume or conclude that about your car, at all. Quite the opposite.

Typically problems get fixed as they arise, if they arise, unless the owner is running the car into the ground.

Your posted Carfax confirms that the owner of that car fixed a HG issue and did not ignore it. Also in that time the car failed to pass emissions various times but there was no mentioned diff leak, trans problem, wiring problem, engine oil leaks or evap core problem.

Edit: Re. Diff, if I agreed that every W140 diff leaks I'd be lying.

Now you are twisting my words Joe. I clearly stated that I bought my car because it was not molested AT ALL and I was the first to touch it after 20+ years.

For the 1999 S600. The CarFax doesn't show everything. But in this case, it does show a "pristine" car with 20000 miles that required substantial engine work. Take that data point for what is worth it.

Oil leaks -- let's ask Chris to start a poll and see what we've got. How about starting here:

This is from this thread.
30,000 mile engine.

Best regards,
Steve

 

[Steve_B]

Or the engine oil leaks? As far as I am concerned, ALL V12s leak oil. Please prove me wrong.

Just adding a data point for future reference:

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w140-s-class/2778178-engine-re-seal.html

Steve

 

[Steve_B]

Anyone here owning any of these cars

As I said, I am a first time MB owner, but I did spend YEARS and THOUSAND of $$$ looking for THE ONE. Attached is a *partial* list of the cars I'd considered.

It just occurred to me that someone who is on this list, might be the the proud new owner of some of the cars I had looked at, but passed.

Post #69, the attachments.

Would be nice to hear with real-world data on those. The 600SEL Lorinser that sold on ebay for $8K was discussed here when the seller (a dreamer at the time) was thinking that $40K+ is a fair price:

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w140-s-class/1869977-1993-600sel-lorinser-import-cl-not.html

Looking forward to hearing the follow-up stories.

Best regards,
Steve

 

[Steve_B]

Anyway, when are you ready to post pics of the car?

I wasn't going to post any more pictures here, but upon removing the door liner (cleaning and lubricating door lock mechanism), I noticed some foam disintegration in the are of the speakers.

Now fixed.

Steve

PS Wish I had pictures of the mirror harness -- perfect!

 

[Steve_B]

Spring clean up

While it is still February (and officially winter in this part of the world), Delaware has been seeing some very much Spring-like days lately. Took the old lady out of hibernation and did some deep carpet cleaning.

Could not have been more pleased with the results.

Steve

 

[Stutz]

Well, while I have a different car, 99 SL, I would say that is anyone believes a car that old does not have rubber driveline parts degraded is not realistic. My car also came from So Cal and was low mileage. But and it was me, that I found after starting on one type of project it usually amounted to work creep in that when you really inspect driceline parts you are faced with the decision of "well while I have this apart I might as well replace that too". Often I would go to do something like put new springs in only to see the lca bushings rotted. As such I could not leave things alone. I would also say most people do not repair things until they have a failure. I am not like that and its our choice but I would also say that without these fixes our cars do not run or handle as they should. For instance when replacing the rear shocks I checked the rear lca bushings. Guess what they were dry rotted. Did they function yes, but were they right, no. So I like you have all new lca bushings, struts, mounts etc. Leaks are the same. Some people can live with some drips from the power steering pump, I prefer not to. So I applaud your work and really I am sure you feel some reward for all the effort. Now when someone tells me what a nice car I have I simply smile and think to myself you have no idea of what this took to do and my guess you will enjoy the driving of it even more. I still have a few things to go but it will be that always, these things become part of us. When I drive this it talks to me yours will too. I also want to thank you for taking the time for the very detailed write up. Very nice and appreciated.