[banyan]

i am replacing the timing chain slide rails (guides) and found the left (drivers side) inboard guide broken. About 2.7 in of the piece that broke off is no where to be found. see photo for illustration between the new and the old that is broken.

should i worry about the missing piece that brokeoff ? It could be down in the oil pan.

pls let me know. thx

 

[hchaugli]

Not an expert, but would not like a loose piece of plastic flying around at 6500 rpm, sorry

 

[rockcrusher]

What side was it on, and I can't believe it is not in view. Not a lot of room for it to go..

Take a closer look.

 

[Fonzi]

What side was it on, and I can't believe it is not in view. Not a lot of room for it to go..

Take a closer look.

Maybe knowing which guide it is and looking at the chain would make it apparent where it might land.




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[Aussiemerc]

He said driver side (left).
Maybe if he can borrow a probe camera he could see it inside?

 

[banyan]

I found the piece that broke-off hanging by a thread. I tried that retrieve it but it fell at the bottom. I tried fishing it out just by feel, and I could get a grab at it but it would not clear past the gears as there is no room. It fell when the chain was out of the sprocket and the chain was tied up to have more space to install the guides. I attached a picture to show where it fell (See arrow). In my assessment, it may be in a place where it will not cause any problem. I decided to tack-it all up after a few hours of trying to fish it out without success. I started it up and the engine have been running for an hour with no problem. I have not test driven it however, as I am not comfortable doing that.

I really appreciate all the feedback. Please let me know if I should drop the timing cover to remove the broken piece. I really need your help.

 

[Fonzi]

I can't tell you what to do, but I think the consensus may be that you are quite ballsy to put that much money and effort into a car and then roll the dice on the entire engine like that.

We went through the same whole thing with another forum member that waited to get a pair of stats to grab the piece to assure it didn't fall into the abyss like yours just did.

I could be wrong, but I think you have to pull the engine (to remove TC cover) or subframe (to drop oil pan) at this point. I hope I'm wrong.

Sorry we didn't warn you. I just didn't know.

Someone here hopefully knows better.


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[rowdie]

To remove the TC cover you have to remove the oil pan. To do this either the engine has to come out or the front subframe has to be removed. I don't know what I would do in this situation.

 

[ChiefRider]

I hate to say this, but do what you must to remove the broken piece. You may regret having to do this, but you won't regret having done it.

 

[banyan]

I hate to say this, but do what you must to remove the broken piece. You may regret having to do this, but you won't regret having done it.

I will try and fish it out one more time. If that does not work, then as you said, I will have to do whatever it takes to remove the broken piece.

 

[banyan]

any other feedback would be highly appreciated.

this is my second 560. the other one being a 91 560SEL, my daily driver, which I have done a lot of work on also.

I just bought this 560SL and was doing well until last week, when I heard a familiar noise at start up. I inspected my guides and found one guide broken. I replaced all 3 guides plus tensioner rail which brought the timing delay at the crank mark to 0 degrees. The delay before the guide replacement was 3 degrees, so I am guessing the delay was due to the broken guide.

Head gasket job and head rebuild I have done on the 560SEL, but looks like it is more work to drop the timing chain on the 560SL. I have a lift in my garage and this is my project car so I will take my time to make sure I do it right.

Any other inputs, please let me know. I need all the help that I can get.

 

[Fonzi]

I think you will never be able to enjoy the car knowing that piece of plastic is down there, always awaiting it to get caught up in a sprocket when you hit a bump, or somehow stop the flow or oil. So you will always be awaiting that sudden catastrophic failure of your engine.

If you were confident that you wouldn't have a problem the way it is now, then you probably wouldn't be asking for advice. Right?

Damn.

Hopefully there are some creative minds out there that can help.

I haven't re-read this thread, but this is the one I was thinking of, where I think some smart forum members chimed in before the piece dropped into the abyss. I'm sure it's worth your time to stop and read it before doing anything else.
http://www.benzworld.org/forums/r-c107-sl-slc-class/1727911-please-help-big-problem.html



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[banyan]

If you were confident that you wouldn't have a problem the way it is now, then you probably wouldn't be asking for advice. Right?

Absolutely. I need all the help that I can get. I am looking for some pictorials of the inside cavity of the timing case just so I can understand better on how the loose plastic piece might get caught with the chain and cause a big problem. My plan right now is to go back and try to fish out whatever is down in there. I have purchased a USB endoscope to help with visual. I have a pickup tool. Also ordered a locking clamp I have read from the link you sent.

 

[hchaugli]

It may be too oily, but I have used doublesided tape on a metal band to catch screws etc fallen into places hands could not reach.

Have also used vacuum from a vacuumcleaner using a small tubeduct taped to the hose.

 

[Aussiemerc]

If you do take the timing cover off then you would have the opportunity of replacing the lower guides.

 

[banyan]

It may be too oily, but I have used doublesided tape on a metal band to catch screws etc fallen into places hands could not reach.

Have also used vacuum from a vacuumcleaner using a small tubeduct taped to the hose.

Not sure what you mean. Is it too oily for the endoscope to work? I ordered one that is waterproof and applicable for automotive use as well

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[ChiefRider]

Hope you get lucky and find a way to retrieve the piece, but I think you are putting off the inevitable.

 

[jsebastian]

I wonder what % of chain guide breaks result in engine damage. The reason I ask is that, upon replacing my guides and tensioner shoe, I found that the bottom part of the left inboard one was broken off at the lower pin and resting on a ledge. Got that one out. The shoe was completely gone, though I spent some time looking for pieces. I doubt the shoe disintegrated a few days after I purchased the car (when I did the chain job), which means the pieces have been probably lurking down there for a while. Are the chances huge that they will come loose?

 

[ChiefRider]

I was involved with valve train development on Ford's sohc 4.6 v8. During testing, we would frequently encounter broken tc guide rails. Pieces of these would wind up in the oil pan or lodged in the oil pump pickup screen. Although I never saw the tc pick up a stray piece, that doesn't mean it couldn't happen. If I thought that were in the oil pan, I'd get it out.

 

[banyan]

I wonder what % of chain guide breaks result in engine damage. The reason I ask is that, upon replacing my guides and tensioner shoe, I found that the bottom part of the left inboard one was broken off at the lower pin and resting on a ledge. Got that one out. The shoe was completely gone, though I spent some time looking for pieces. I doubt the shoe disintegrated a few days after I purchased the car (when I did the chain job), which means the pieces have been probably lurking down there for a while. Are the chances huge that they will come loose?

Interesting point. If you look at my beginning post (#1) it is the same guide that broke in my case and the bottom was the one that brokeoff as well. I would understand that you were able to retrieve the bottom piece. My guess is that the bottom part in your case was still in one piece (width wise) therefore could not possibly fall in the abyss (as has been referred to inhere) as there is not enough space to fall into.

In my case, I did not have a full view of what has broken off as it was already about to fall. I only saw the tip which I was able to grab (barely) using a pick-up tool, but it fell none the less. After thinking about his some more, it is highly probable that the piece that fell was no longer full on its width because it was able to fit into the small space which it fell into.

Regarding the shoe getting loose, I am not sure, but this is a much bigger piece. I have been looking for a diagram showing how the bottom of the timing case is connected to the oil pan. Is it possible that anything that drops into the timing case will end up in the oil pan? If this is the case, then the shoe in your case would be in the oil pan and so with the broken guide in my case.