[Birger]

... in a recent letter to the editor of the respected German auto mag "auto, motor und sport" someone suggested that waiting months and paying mega-money for the W164 wasn't worth while, as you could already get it right now - and cheap - at your local Kia dealership.

This of course is rubbish - but take a superficial look (especially from the front) of the W164 and the Kia Sorento, and ..... hum, well, let's say that with the money and resources on DC's hand, they could maybe have tried something a little more different.....

Kind regards from (nevertheless) a future ML320CDI owner,
Birger

 

[LVDell]

My thoughts exactly.

 

[Andrew]

Last year I read a good article about the auto industry and this modern age, has it ever occurred to you how is it possible for today for a relatively new car manufacturer without any long history of technical development contribution to the art all of a sudden being right there competing in design, handling and engineering with the likes of BMW and Mercedes?

The answer is in the electronic age, the latest design to enter the market can be quickly acquired and dissected and all the innovations and engineering quickly understood and incorporated, technical libraries abound and technology is for sale at every corner, again using electronics the design of any mechanical device can be done in an extremely short time, any information gathered or spied within minutes can be transmitted to home base, with modern techniques just a few pictures at different angles a computer can generate a three-dimensional image at any perfect scale, a CNC machining center taking that information can carve that image into a model in just hours or a few days, CNC and robotics machinery can start making all the pertinent in a short time, what took in the past a skilled machinist painstaking labor a CNC machine can do at an extreme fraction of the time, sometimes by a factor of 1000th % and some things could not even be made or took months of the best machinist to make.
In this way with a little R&D budget they can stay on the heels of the innovators, they are complaining bitterly but this is the new age of lightning information and detail saturation

 

[LVDell]

Are you suggesting Corporate Espionage? If so, wouldn't MB be all over that?

 

[LOCHS 2]

You are dead on! I always felt the Kia was a perfect example of exactly what the w164 would/could

Birger - 1/11/2005 11:56 AM

... in a recent letter to the editor of the respected German auto mag "auto, motor und sport" someone suggested that waiting months and paying mega-money for the W164 wasn't worth while, as you could already get it right now - and cheap - at your local Kia dealership.

This of course is rubbish - but take a superficial look (especially from the front) of the W164 and the Kia Sorento, and ..... hum, well, let's say that with the money and resources on DC's hand, they could maybe have tried something a little more different.....

Kind regards from (nevertheless) a future ML320CDI owner,
Birger

look like. The first time I saw it I said, man, that is Kia beating Mercedes to the desig floor of it's own next generation ML! The Kia does look pretty good to me...but it's a KIA! Test drive both and there will be no mistaking which is the better vehicle. Plus the ML has the star and the KIA badge won't be confused with a vehicle of high cost or show that you have money or class. It's bought mainly by people who are cheap or poor or both. If they are buying it becuase they think they have a baby lexus or whatever then kudos to Kia's bottom line. Even the new Ford 500 looks like a German car, maybe a passat or an Audi if you don't know much about cars. The non-German competition that are trying to emulate the Germans in styling may in fact have a great overall package with more value and cheaper to own but again, they will never touch the brand image and prestige of a BMW or Mercedes. AT least not in this 34 year old's mind!

 

[C-Rod]

l've always been fascinated about the need for people to compare vehicles...and l understand it is the nature of the business, but having said this, l've been an employee for the Toyota plant in Cambridge, Ontario plant for 8 years.....we make the Corolla, the Matrix , and the Lexus RX 330......Many of my friends always "raze" me about the Lexus being a "glorified Toyota"...or the Kia Sorrento looking alot like my 00 Lexus RX 300, which l owned for 2 years prior to my ownership of my ML...Heck..the first time l saw Vince Carter, l thought he looked alot like Michael Jordan.....same analagy l guess...Though the Kia may look like the new W164..l think its fair to say the comparsion will end there..Personally, l can't imagine a bunch of Mercedes engineer's sitting around brain storming, would draw their design inspirations from the Kia Sorrento..DO YOU!!!!!!!!! And if you do..l guess you haven't seen the new Mercedes SLR......Let's see Kia try that!!!So guys...let's please, stop drawing comparsions, between a "legend" and a bottom feeder!!!!

 

[RickT]

it does hurt a little, but......
congratulations to Kia for their design well in advance of the W164. By all accounts the Sorento is a nice little package with higher reliability than the W163 and generally a better value.

However, as Lochs 2 says, it will never be mistaken for a Mercedes in either appearance, performance, nor safety. And, despite the fact that the W164 does not break new ground in the design area, I do like the looks. My big disappointment with the W164 is no third row (something I need in my next SUV).

 

[Birger]

Hi, C-Rod

C-Rod - 1/11/2005 10:37 PM

l've always been fascinated about the need for people to compare vehicles...and l understand it is the nature of the business, but having said this, l've been an employee for the Toyota plant in Cambridge, Ontario plant for 8 years.....we make the Corolla, the Matrix , and the Lexus RX 330......Many of my friends always "raze" me about the Lexus being a "glorified Toyota"...or the Kia Sorrento looking alot like my 00 Lexus RX 300, which l owned for 2 years prior to my ownership of my ML...Heck..the first time l saw Vince Carter, l thought he looked alot like Michael Jordan.....same analagy l guess...Though the Kia may look like the new W164..l think its fair to say the comparsion will end there..Personally, l can't imagine a bunch of Mercedes engineer's sitting around brain storming, would draw their design inspirations from the Kia Sorrento..DO YOU!!!!!!!!! And if you do..l guess you haven't seen the new Mercedes SLR......Let's see Kia try that!!!So guys...let's please, stop drawing comparsions, between a "legend" and a bottom feeder!!!!

Sorry, and please don't get more excited by this, but I think it's very legitimate to compare - even compare Mercedes to "normal" vehicles.

I've read through all 45 pages of the excellent pre-review on http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2050109.002/page/1/lang/eng/mercedes/1.html (well, considering that the source is MB, it better be excellent []), and I'm sure that the W164 will be a far superior, safer - you name it - vehicle than the Kia Sorento. Because of the added content, however, a sensibly optioned ML320CDI will also cost something like twice as much as a fully-optioned Kia Sorento, or even more.

Some of these features will save your life in case of an accident, some will add to driving pleasure, some will make driving safer, and some will preserve nature - and having experienced some of the things the W164 offers on my present W163, and which are not offered on the Sorento, yes, I will stick to the W164. But another potential customer, who sees the two vehicles side by side, and who doesn't for instance know that for instance the available Bi-Xenon lighting on the MB is the seventh wonder if you drive at night, well he or she might have difficulty in parting with the extra money because the vehicles, seen from the outside, are so similar.

That is what I wanted to say - and, just for the record, yes, I DO know the SLR quite well, having a neighbor who's a complete Mercedesophile (his current "stable" comprises, along with the SLR, two SLK's (one old, one new), two SL's (one AMG), an AMG E-Class, and a W163 ML400CDI). Unfortunately, all this hardware does not make him a more extraordinary person []

Kind regards,
Birger

(who's not too unhappy about his street - another neighbor who already sold Volvo/Honda/Opel/Daewoo/Suzuki has now added Chevrolet/Cadillac/Corvette/Hummer to his repertoire, so you see interesting things go by)

 

[Swizzles]

Yea and someone in my area put this grill on his sorento. Now it looks like a ML crossed with an X5. We've had replica oakleys, rolex, purses etc.. for years now. It was only a matter of time before someone started making knock off cars. The new Kia sportage looks remarkably like a honda CRV. I wish I could find that picture....

 

[LVDell]

C-Rod.....you really need to stop taking this stuff so personally. If anything you should be pissed that MB (or KIA) copied one another or worse yet shared ideas to save cost by co-designing. Personally I don't understand why MB had to go the way of the common SUV look now.

The past ML (163) looked like no other SUV and the G, well, the G is just what it really is (a luxurious Gelandewagen). That is why I bought my ML, becasue I wanted an SUV that DID'NT look like all the others on the road. I am not inmpressed with the 164 like I want to be. The exterior (while done very well) just looks like "another" SUV. The interior though is fantastic and what draws me to it.

FYI....if you build a car that looks like another then it WILL draw comparisons. And one more thing, comparing MJ to Vince Carter is not the same, it is nothing more than steroetyping and racism.

 

[Birger]

Hi,

Swizzles - 1/12/2005 10:31 AM

Yea and someone in my area put this grill on his sorento. Now it looks like a ML crossed with an X5. We've had replica oakleys, rolex, purses etc.. for years now. It was only a matter of time before someone started making knock off cars. The new Kia sportage looks remarkably like a honda CRV. I wish I could find that picture....

Sorry for going OT, but are those Sorento headlights Xenon, or is it just because over here in ol' Europe it's getting towards the end of the day??? [][][]

Cheers,
Birger

 

[Andrew]

RickT - 1/12/2005 12:16 AM

it does hurt a little, but......
congratulations to Kia for their design well in advance of the W164. By all accounts the Sorento is a nice little package with higher reliability than the W163 and generally a better value.

If anyone peruses thru the official Mercedes pages they clearly stated that in regards to design a Mercedes when the time comes to update a design (New design) it will be an evolution or continuity of the previous model incorporating all the new technology and aerodynamic improvements intended, further more they state that any model should bear the resemblance and philosophy of the company, sharing fundamental design principles, so if you are looking at a C class or an S class or a truck you instinctively know that you are looking at a Mercedes, furthermore if you look an E class of this year for instance and an E class of the past you will instinctively know that is a car of the same lineage.

In fact you can see that this philosophy goes back to the beginning of the company, looking at a Mercedes of the 30’s one can immediately notice elements of the company and immediately is recognized as a Mercedes.

It is clear that this philosophy exists in the W164 compared to the W163 all it takes is a look.

To think that Mercedes for lack of imagination copied a KIA is a joke.

No other brand in the world has been more faithful to its heritage than Mercedes, you can look at Cadillac or Ford or a Toyota of today and go back three or four decades ago and all you can do is wonder what car is that, something that never will happen with a Mercedes. When the ML was first shown in the late 90’s no SUV looked like that, today a whole line looks like an ML in one way or another.

Throughout the decades I have seen design elements introduced by German cars that after a while they become the daily bread to the point that nobody has a clue where it came from, it’s just there, everybody has it.
One example is the rims with a few straight spokes, wagon wheel like, Peabody and everybody has them now, is the last word in futuristic statement.

Mercedes already knows what the next ML is going to look like, after reading this you probably have an idea too.

 

[Wolfgang]

Kia hired a new chief of design yesterday, who will be working out of Hyundai/Kia design offices in Irvine, California and be responsible for North America KIA design.

He made this statement to the press:

"People have thought of Kia as an <B>appliance</B>, bought on price," he says. "Korean cars are basic transportation in South Korea, whereas in more developed countries, cars are more of a statement. The auto industry in Korea doesn't have a design element, much like Japan 20 years ago, or the Americans 50 years ago."

 

[tcp_ML500]

What's the big surprise anyway?

Hyundai owns KIA, and is itself 10.5% owned by DaimlerChrysler. Hyundai swaps learning with Mercedes-Benz engineers (one such direct case of knowledge transfer is Hyundai transmissions derived from MB trannies)

Heck, the X5 has a fugly little sister, the X3, and the W164 now has its own fugly step child, under a KIA badge to avoid the shame that the X3 can't avoid.

 

[C-Rod]

Andrew - 1/12/2005 3:07 PM

RickT - 1/12/2005 12:16 AM

it does hurt a little, but......
congratulations to Kia for their design well in advance of the W164. By all accounts the Sorento is a nice little package with higher reliability than the W163 and generally a better value.

If anyone peruses thru the official Mercedes pages they clearly stated that in regards to design a Mercedes when the time comes to update a design (New design) it will be an evolution or continuity of the previous model incorporating all the new technology and aerodynamic improvements intended, further more they state that any model should bear the resemblance and philosophy of the company, sharing fundamental design principles, so if you are looking at a C class or an S class or a truck you instinctively know that you are looking at a Mercedes, furthermore if you look an E class of this year for instance and an E class of the past you will instinctively know that is a car of the same lineage.

In fact you can see that this philosophy goes back to the beginning of the company, looking at a Mercedes of the 30’s one can immediately notice elements of the company and immediately is recognized as a Mercedes.

It is clear that this philosophy exists in the W164 compared to the W163 all it takes is a look.

To think that Mercedes for lack of imagination copied a KIA is a joke.

No other brand in the world has been more faithful to its heritage than Mercedes, you can look at Cadillac or Ford or a Toyota of today and go back three or four decades ago and all you can do is wonder what car is that, something that never will happen with a Mercedes. When the ML was first shown in the late 90’s no SUV looked like that, today a whole line looks like an ML in one way or another.

Throughout the decades I have seen design elements introduced by German cars that after a while they become the daily bread to the point that nobody has a clue where it came from, it’s just there, everybody has it.
One example is the rims with a few straight spokes, wagon wheel like, Peabody and everybody has them now, is the last word in futuristic statement.

Mercedes already knows what the next ML is going to look like, after reading this you probably have an idea too.

Well...said!!!!![]

 

[5thMB1stNew]

Wow, all this over who copied whom? "They" say the Ford Mustang was the first car built totally to a market. Now, I assume they all are.

But my take on the 164 is a bit different. As an owner of the '02 mid-term restyle, I see the evolution of the 163 feature set into the 164. The minivan look HAD to go, and is really the only part of the 163 that hasn't continued in some fashion. When I was a kid you could offer a new bumper, engine, and quarter panel, and go on to the next model year several times. If that were the case today, there would (maybe) still be an American Motors. It looks good to me, but I see NO reason to leave my '02 sport for it, unless a manual diesel utility version comes out (If I say that enough times on enough boards, maybe they will at least make me a test-version to try).

Regarding Kia, et al. The only designs safe from mimicry are Bangle's. Somebody is always knocking off someone else's product engineering and design, and I loved the fake watches analogy. And if you do it real well for a long time, you can eliminate the original from the market. In the early 70's the leading selling sedan in America was the Oldsmobile Cutlass.

BTW, I got a kick out of this quote, "And one more thing, comparing MJ to Vince Carter is not the same, it is nothing more than steroetyping (sic) and racism".

My take; MJ and VC are both UNC all-americans, raised in North Carolina. They have similar frames and were both NBA slam dunk champs and league MVP's. A Canadian used a reference from a player on a Canadian team. Within the last week, a major magazine has compared the two, not kindly. Stereotyping and racism??? A real stretch, IMHO. Reminds me of an old saying.... He who smelt it, dealt it. []

Have fun

 

[AC_ML]

It's human nature to emulate the good ..

It's human nature to emulate the good and beautiful, and it is normally taken as a complement and as recognition by most everybody...

And it is true, too, that business as well as vanity tries to vainly enforce uniqueness and cast shame on all emulating contenders..

Don't see any issue with companies emulating good designs, good quality, good customer service, good technology, good price/performance ratios, etc.. All these sound like good healthy progress to me... []

 

[C-Rod]

5thMB1stNew - 1/13/2005 7:44 AM

Wow, all this over who copied whom? "They" say the Ford Mustang was the first car built totally to a market. Now, I assume they all are.

But my take on the 164 is a bit different. As an owner of the '02 mid-term restyle, I see the evolution of the 163 feature set into the 164. The minivan look HAD to go, and is really the only part of the 163 that hasn't continued in some fashion. When I was a kid you could offer a new bumper, engine, and quarter panel, and go on to the next model year several times. If that were the case today, there would (maybe) still be an American Motors. It looks good to me, but I see NO reason to leave my '02 sport for it, unless a manual diesel utility version comes out (If I say that enough times on enough boards, maybe they will at least make me a test-version to try).

Regarding Kia, et al. The only designs safe from mimicry are Bangle's. Somebody is always knocking off someone else's product engineering and design, and I loved the fake watches analogy. And if you do it real well for a long time, you can eliminate the original from the market. In the early 70's the leading selling sedan in America was the Oldsmobile Cutlass.

BTW, I got a kick out of this quote, "And one more thing, comparing MJ to Vince Carter is not the same, it is nothing more than steroetyping (sic) and racism".

My take; MJ and VC are both UNC all-americans, raised in North Carolina. They have similar frames and were both NBA slam dunk champs and league MVP's. A Canadian used a reference from a player on a Canadian team. Within the last week, a major magazine has compared the two, not kindly. Stereotyping and racism??? A real stretch, IMHO. Reminds me of an old saying.... He who smelt it, dealt it. []

Have fun

Thanks for your support..l too..thought, it was a bit of a stretch, but l was afraid to disagree with him, because, l thought he would consider it "SLANDER"..

 

[rudeney]

RE: You are dead on! I always felt the Kia was a perfect example of exactly what the w164 would/coul

Just a few comments here. In response to:

Even the new Ford 500 looks like a German car, maybe a passat or an Audi if you don't know much about cars.

Ford’s design chief is Jay Mays, former Audi designer. Not only does the exterior of the Ford 500 smack of the Audi A6, the interior is would also look at home in any Audi/VW model.

Years ago, Even Consumer Reports pointed out how the Korean makes were copying other luxury models. Specifically, they compared the exterior of the Daewoo Leganza to a Lexus GS. Ever notice how the headlights on the Hyundai Sonata look a lot like those on a C- class? What about the new Kia Amati and how it’s front-end looks like a Jaguar? It’s just a matter of emulating what is successful.

- RODNEY