Mercedes-Benz Forum banner

1 - 20 of 108 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,160 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I purchased Morel 6.5 component speakers for the rear deck of my 90 420 SEL. I already have a new Alpine deck and alpine 445A mini amp running now.

When installing the rear speakers. Should I install the new speakers in factory plastic base? I assume that’s the better way. In that case, can I remove that plastic housing and install the speakers, then re install the factory housing? I’ll install the crossover in the trunk and run cables to speaker and tweeter from there.

Depending on the outcome, if all goes well and sound out back is drastically improved, I plan to buy the same speaker set for the front.
Can I install the woofer inside front doors with a crossover, but leave the dash speakers untouched for now ? So not using the Morel tweeters for the dash. Will the dash speakers still work or are they wired from the door speakers.

Many thanks !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,053 Posts
I purchased Morel 6.5 component speakers for the rear deck of my 90 420 SEL. I already have a new Alpine deck and alpine 445A mini amp running now.

When installing the rear speakers. Should I install the new speakers in factory plastic base? I assume that’s the better way. In that case, can I remove that plastic housing and install the speakers, then re install the factory housing? I’ll install the crossover in the trunk and run cables to speaker and tweeter from there.

Depending on the outcome, if all goes well and sound out back is drastically improved, I plan to buy the same speaker set for the front.
Can I install the woofer inside front doors with a crossover, but leave the dash speakers untouched for now ? So not using the Morel tweeters for the dash. Will the dash speakers still work or are they wired from the door speakers.

Many thanks !


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
The 6.5" speakers should fit in the factory plastic housing, depending on the size of the magnet of the Morel speakers. Installing the crossover in the trunk is an easy option with short runs of wire to the rear speakers.

If the current speakers in your dash and front doors is the original Mercedes-Benz 10-speaker "Premium Sound" package, then the door speakers are midbass and the dash speakers provide midrange and high frequencies. There are crossover elements (resistors and capacitors) integrated in the OEM wiring to separate the frequencies.

You can fit 4" speakers in the dash locations and the higher-end coax ones have separate crossovers.

To keep it simple, I would suggest using a pair of 4" coax speakers in the dash and pull new wiring from your amplifier.

The door location of the midbass is terrible for sound anyway. It fires at your hips in the SE/SEL and at the ankles of the rear passengers in the SEC.
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,160 Posts
Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Thanks.

For now I wanted to keep the dash speakers alone.

So do you think I can replace the front door speakers with Morel components for now ?

I’m avoiding running the cables from the doors/ crossovers to the dash. Not sure I ever want to. Or not yet .


So using the same component set up can I swap out just the door speakers ? Use new cross overs for that or just use whatever the factory system is sending to speakers in the doors ?

Thank you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,053 Posts
Thanks.

For now I wanted to keep the dash speakers alone.

So do you think I can replace the front door speakers with Morel components for now ?

I’m avoiding running the cables from the doors/ crossovers to the dash. Not sure I ever want to. Or not yet .


So using the same component set up can I swap out just the door speakers ? Use new cross overs for that or just use whatever the factory system is sending to speakers in the doors ?

Thank you.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Running new speaker cable to the doors is a bit of a hassle.

The easiest solution for you would be to run a new set of wires from your amplifier to new dash speakers.

Where is your amplifier located? If it is in the trunk, it's easy to run wire down the sides and up through the dash.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,160 Posts
Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
Update.

Installed one rear speaker. I’m pretty sure all is correct. I work in Av field.
Amp is a small power pack amp that plugs in between radio and speakers. It’s under the dash right now. I thought 45rms per channel would be enough. I was avoiding the whole cable run to the trunk ordeal. Rca. Power. Remote and all that crap. Too old for this.

For some reason the stock speaker sounded better. There is zero improvement with the Morel speaker out back.
I played with polarity thinking maybe that’s it. I even bypassed the crossover, no change.

Any input before I reinstall the old speaker back tomorrow ? Since there is zero improvement I’m gonna try to the glue the stick speaker back in and send Morels back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
4,053 Posts
Update.

Installed one rear speaker. I’m pretty sure all is correct. I work in Av field.
Amp is a small power pack amp that plugs in between radio and speakers. It’s under the dash right now. I thought 45rms per channel would be enough. I was avoiding the whole cable run to the trunk ordeal. Rca. Power. Remote and all that crap. Too old for this.

For some reason the stock speaker sounded better. There is zero improvement with the Morel speaker out back.
I played with polarity thinking maybe that’s it. I even bypassed the crossover, no change.

Any input before I reinstall the old speaker back tomorrow ? Since there is zero improvement I’m gonna try to the glue the stick speaker back in and send Morels back.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That's definitely a disappointment.

The amplifiers in the OEM system are mounted behind the rear seats. If you plug your amplifier into the stock harness it will not play well with the OEM amps.

If you're not ready to bypass the OEM harness, why not try the Morel speakers with the OEM head unit and amps.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,826 Posts
I concur with the census that the new components, receiver, amp and front/rear speakers need to be wired together as a system. Forget all the factory wiring as you only need a constant and switched hot +12V source and a good ground for the new system. Also as mentioned forget the door speakers at this time. The factory speakers are something like 2 or 1 ohm speakers designed to be compatible with the lower power original Becker system. What you observed with only one new Morel speaker connected in the rear is that the lower impedance (factory) speakers will play 2-3 times louder than the new speaker as it most likely is 8 ohm or possibly 4 ohm. Your first instinct will be the "louder" speaker is better but that is a false impression. The new Alpine amp has plenty of power for all 4 new speakers. As mentioned, get some high quality 4" 2-way speakers for the dash then all 4 speakers will be the same impedance and balanced. Forget the original amps and wiring as it is not suitable for modern systems and as Mercedes themselves changed the systems around 1993 to something that is similar to modern offerings. I recently upgraded both SEC and SEL with a similar Kenwood receiver (has all the modern bluetooth, hands free phone and a nice amber screen) along with the Alpine KTP-445U amp and the results are amazing. The main difference is the modern electronics have less than 1% distortion where as the old Becker was closer to 10% so the entire listening experience is more accurate, extended frequency range and balanced, delivering tight bass, smooth natural mid-range and extended hi-frequencies. You are so close so don't turn back and don't mix 30 yr old speakers/technology with modern miracles of science. With the correct tools and knowledge of the pathways of your car one can rewire all the speakers in less than 2 hours. The next level would be to find the correct size low end drivers (subs/woofers) for your doors but again wire those directly to a separate KTP-445U utilizing the Subwoofer output of your Alpine receiver to that amp then to the door bass speakers for the additional low end thump. If your getting frustrated, find a reputable car stereo store that does installs and they should be able to finish up your project. Mike
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,160 Posts
Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
Guys thanks so much for the input.
The stock amps behind rear seat have been by passed before me.

Yes I used rear factory speaker cable ( black +. Black and yellow - ). That goes into the morel crossover.

So alpine deck plugs into alpine 445a ( under the dash) into the factory harness that goes to the speakers.
Can there really be a factory crossover between the 445 and the rear speakers ?

I was in disbelief. Impossible for a morel speaker to be less loud than stock.

So run direct 2 cables from rear speakers to 445a amp ? In hopes of by passing some factory crossover that’s in between the dash and rear speakers ?

I’ll do that today after work. Run cables direct from 445 to the ear speaker and see if it makes a definite change.

I just don’t want to remove the other rear speakers, cracking the grille in process and then curing up stock wires of the results will be disappointing again.

I’m just having hard time believing that the Morel speaker is worse than the stock unit.

Thanks again guys.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,160 Posts
Discussion Starter #10
That's definitely a disappointment.



The amplifiers in the OEM system are mounted behind the rear seats. If you plug your amplifier into the stock harness it will not play well with the OEM amps.



If you're not ready to bypass the OEM harness, why not try the Morel speakers with the OEM head unit and amps.


I don’t have the oem head unit as it was replaced by a previous owner.
Also rear amps have been by passed as well, they are currently in my basement. Fader has also been by passed.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,160 Posts
Discussion Starter #11
Unless the 445 amps 45 watt rms is grossly under powering 80rms rating of the Morels ?

I’ll splice into the 445 wiring and run direct cable to one Morel to see if it gets much better after work.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,025 Posts
While Morels are generally power hungry, wattage ratings on speakers is largely BS because you can run much more power in certain situations and much less in others. 80WRMS is the thermal capacity of the voice coil (how much power it can take constantly for an amount of time before burning). When you run a 6.5" speaker on an open rear deck you'll be mechanically limited by the throw of the driver at less than 80W.

In your situation I'd usually run the speaker wires from the amp outside the car to the trunk to audition them before doing all the work of running them through the car. If they sound better you'll have the encouragement to get the job done.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,160 Posts
Discussion Starter #14
While Morels are generally power hungry, wattage ratings on speakers is largely BS because you can run much more power in certain situations and much less in others. 80WRMS is the thermal capacity of the voice coil (how much power it can take constantly for an amount of time before burning). When you run a 6.5" speaker on an open rear deck you'll be mechanically limited by the throw of the driver at less than 80W.

In your situation I'd usually run the speaker wires from the amp outside the car to the trunk to audition them before doing all the work of running them through the car. If they sound better you'll have the encouragement to get the job done.


Thank you. I plan to do just that today when I get home. Just run a pair of cables from the 445 amp directly to the Morel speaker crossover in hopes of by passing some sort of the crossover that’s there in the wiring. I’m not convinced there is one as my factory amps are by passed and the little capacitor that was on the end of the factory speakers wiring has been cut off by me yesterday.

I appreciate the input and I’ll post an update in the evening. Really hope to get it working to my liking.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,160 Posts
Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
Well. Ran a separate wire run from the alpine amp directly to the speaker with no changes. Zero difference.
I even installed the second speaker to give the whole package a run at it.

Stock speakers had a lot more bass and they were louder for sure.

Either the 445 does not have more rms power or speakers are junk.
Probably the amp at 45 watt rms is a weak match to 80 watt rms of the morels.

Gonna have to install old speakers back. And now both speaker covers are broken. Dammit.

Makes me wonder if the 445 is even working. I remember when I installed it, I could hardly feel the difference between running just the deck or with the 445 a. So I just left I plugged in.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Outstanding Contributor
Joined
·
2,939 Posts
Probably the amp at 45 watt rms is a weak match to 80 watt rms of the morels.
That's not how it works. The Morels don't require (or need or want) 80 watts; the 80 watt rating means that you can blow them up with more than 80 watts (continuous).

40 watts is 3 db less than 80 watts. One way to get a handle on that is 1 db is about the smallest increase or decrease in volume you can detect, so 3 barely perceptible increases in volume is the difference between the 45 watts of the amp and what it takes to smoke the speakers.

In reality, you never run average power anywhere near 45 watts and the reserve available is just there for those sudden bursts, like a rim shot (unless you're playing window rattling rap "music", in which case you're in the wrong ball park...)

To compare them, you have to play them at the same volume (sound pressure level) (not the same volume setting). Of course, the results of the comparison are highly subjective, too. In the end, go with what you like, not what the specs tell you you should like.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
4,965 Posts
what morels specifically did u get?

im trying to figure out what systems to put in the my gen 1 sec
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,160 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
what morels specifically did u get?

im trying to figure out what systems to put in the my gen 1 sec


Morel Maximo 6.5 component set.


I don’t understand all the great reviews of the 445 on the Internet. If this is the best it does, it’s actually worse than the stock 1990 setup and is as good as the regular output of a new radio.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,826 Posts
I still think running the modern receiver, amp and speakers thru the existing wiring that previous owner performed the conversion presents many variables that are not necessary. You should revisit the instructions for adding the Alpine amp to the Alpine head unit. That amp was designed to be versatile and flexible with both line level and speaker inputs. Line level is the best combination. Also the amp is a good value and extremely small size which makes it universal. All that for $100 or so is a lot to like but not necessarily the best bang for the buck for a straight forward modern head unit to amp to speaker setup. As mentioned above the only difference in 45 watts and 90 watts is 3db more volume before the amp goes into clipping mode, with that said to increase volume 6db one needs 180 watts. I don't think power is the question here as much as "all speakers need to be in phase with each other". My experience is when someone has hacked into the factory wiring at least 1 or 2 speakers are wired out of phase with the others which equals a shallow un-focused sound and a major lack of bass response. That is why I recommended either all new wiring or let an experienced auto sound tech sort it all out.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,025 Posts
Without looking over the install it's hard to say what the issue may be, but I wouldn't throw the towel in just yet and revert to stock. Double check settings on the headunit. Make sure all filters are defeated, EQ set to flat, and DSP magic stuffs are turned off to start. New speakers also benefit from break in as the suspension needs to loosen up a bit. The premium W126 stereo is pretty good for its time but also very easy to surpass with modern products. I would also not rule out the possibility that the amp is defective.
 
1 - 20 of 108 Posts
About this Discussion
107 Replies
11 Participants
tusabes
Mercedes-Benz Forum
BenzWorld.org forum is one of the largest Mercedes-Benz owner websites offering the most comprehensive collection of Mercedes-Benz information anywhere in the world. The site includes MB Forums, News, Galleries, Publications, Classifieds, Events and much more!
Full Forum Listing
Top