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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Hi Guys,
@Deplore @pinkster Please could you 2 read the next 2 posts and see if you think I'm on the right lines here with regard to the 2 ECU's and the potential Drive Authorisation and Coil / Injector Driver issues I found, remember the 2001 V6 SLK320 is DAS2 Immo and the 2001 V8 S500 ECU is DAS3 Immo, but the 2 Immo Chips, and the circuit boards look identical apart from the missing Drivers on the V6 in post #2
Thanks ;)

W220 restoration is now almost complete, should be totally finished after my 3 week Xmas Shutdown. and I'm already looking for the next project :devil

I currently have a V6 SLK in my Workshops, for Auto Box and ESP Problem, and after sorting the Gearbox and taking it for a test drive I thought hell, this is no "Hairdressers Convertible" :grin

Me want one to add to my MB Collection :rolleyes:

I found and put deposits on 2 Cars this week only to have my deposits returned by unscrupulous sellers because obviously they had had better offers.
These Cars were a fair way away from the remote area i live in, and they had both agreed to hold them for 2 weeks until I could get to see / buy / collect.

I'll have my SLK before long though, trying to do a deal on 1 of 2 possibles atm ;)

So, I got a load of work done today and had some time to play, hence out came the "Old" 2012 SDS and in came the R170 that I'm still waiting on a Yaw Sensor from MB Dealers.

I think it would be fair to say any of us who know Mercedes Cars will agree, by using a V6 Car as a base, dropping in a V8 from a mechanical perspective will be an absolute doddle using standard MB Parts ........................

Problems will arise when it comes to the Electronics !!

As others who have trodden this path have found, specifically getting all the Electronics to talk to each other over CAN Bus, and also the Car builder needs to understand how the Immobilizer System works, and also the ramifications of the fact that the R170 uses DAS 2 Drive Authorisation (Mechanical Key Blade), and V8's such as W220 use DAS 3 (Infra Red Key / EIS).

I decided to look at compatibility with Electronics, Version Codings etc.

Here is my findings :-

Use the ECU from the V6 Car, now all Immo (DAS) issues are removed from the equation as well as things like the CAN Comms between ME and Instrument Cluster, ESP ABS TCU etc etc, because this V6 ECU is already matched to the Cars other Electronics !!

WHAT !! I hear you cry, but the V8 has 2 extra Injectors and Coils and being a 5.0 liter it will need different fuelling and timing etc that won't work !!

Oh yes it will, MB thoughtfully included other Engine Variants in the ECU's Programming, so all one has to do is use SDS to change the ECU Version Coding to M113 E50 EDIT (actually when you read the next post it isn't quite this simple)

Transmission Control Unit Coding is a little harder, it isn't spelled out in plain English, when replacing these one needs a (not identical) but compatible part number TCU and copy the Coding from old TCU to replacement so yeah, one way or another Trans is no issue

I do have a sneaky feeling that by using the TCU that is on the V6 Car, (assuming one is keeping V6 Diff), then it's shift timing will be pretty close if not the same, and then Diff Ratios and Trans Gear Implausible issues will not be a problem.

I'm not certain if V6 and V8 Trannys have the same ratio Gearset, and I haven't checked the Diff Ratios either, will need to compare part numbers on WIS EPC, but none of this is an issue, by using the correct combination of parts and a little playing with Version Codings I am 101% certain that it will work :)

If it turned into an issue I personally would fit a V6 Tranny Gearset into the V8 Trans, because that maybe has extra Clutches in it's packs to take the extra torque, or if one wishes to use the V8 TCU with V8 Trans and V8 Diff, then that should not create conflict either !!
I think for a Road Car the Diff from the V8 Car would be the one to use, again though there are a load of Codings that can be set in the ME ECU to alter Ratios and Tyre Sizes, and I believe that also applies to the TCU Coding from my experience with the S Class TCU. I expect I could get that info from MB as the TCU is a numerical Coding rather than Verbal on SDS Screen so I'd just need to know what number represents what (decode it) as it were

ABS ESP and BAS require no version Coding, so although they Communicate to ME and probably TCU via CAN Bus they can be considered "Stand Alone" and therefore need no messing with.

Below are a load of pics from this afternoons session on SDS :wink

I'll be back soon with some more info when I've Compared the Wiring Plugs between a V8 ME 2.8 and the R170 V6 ME 2.8, my fingers are crossed right now :grin

Cheers Dave

Piccies :-
Attached Thumbnails
 

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Discussion Starter #2 (Edited)
Hi,

I'm back, phase 2 of investigative research is now complete ........................

The V6 ECU will plug into the V8 Engine Loom and the V6 Car Loom will also plug into the V8 ECU so that works either way which is a good thing :grin

Pic 1) The V6 ECU is the top one and the V8 is below it. Sadly there is a but, but it's not an insurmountable but though, "gentlemen we have the technology" Read on ;)

Pic 2) The ECU's side by side V6 Left, V8 Right, (V8 is from a W220 S Class 5.0 V8) which is good news for us UK guys, because an old knacker but running W220 can be bought for peanuts now :devil

Pics 3) & 4) show the ECU's part numbers, and tell you which one is 6 "zylinder" and which is 8 !!

Pics 5) and 6) show the Circuit Boards, identical (almost), and that's the BUT !! ....................

Note where my 3 screwdrivers are pointing ...................

The V8 may well start on the V6 ECU, but it will only run on 6 Cylinders even if Coded for V8, because there are 2 Coil Drivers and 2 Injector Drivers not fitted to the PCB !!

We can plug the V8 ECU into the Car, that's fine, then we plug the V8 into it's own ECU and behold, we can crank and start it once, it will fire up and 2 - 3 seconds later it will die, Immo has kicked in and it is now locked out

If we disconnect the Power and Earths Plug from ECU for 5 mins and plug it back in, again it will crank and fire then die, repeat, repeat, repeat, etc etc ....................

So that's a non starter if you'll pardon the pun :big laugh:

However, it is fairly easily sorted if you have good eyesight and a soldering Iron .........................

Now see the last 2 pics, 7) & 8) my screwdriver is pointing to the V6 and V8's Immobiliser Chips, which are the little 8 legged variety, and this is the "Theft Relevant" (Immo) Chip needs to match the Cars other Theft Relevant Parts

If you look closely I have changed the Immo Chip on the V8 ECU before, my soldering isn't as neat as the Bosch factory but it worked and then that Car was un Immobilised. Then the EIS died and I ended up changing the whole Theft Relevant Set because it was cheaper than getting a new EIS, or Repaired EIS.....................

So I know I have a good V8 ECU there as a spare for fiddling with.

There is 2 choices here, either ..................

Plan A = take the Drivers from the V8 ECU and Solder them onto the V6 PCB, or .......................

Plan B = swap the V6 ECU Immo Chip onto the V8 PCB.

The Chassis (VIN) Numbers in the ECU are not editable with SDS though, so each time the Car goes on a diagnostic machine it will report the wrong VIN !!

That is no real biggie, except to an anal perfectionist like me ............

So when I get that far along I think I will try plan A first, before moving to plan B

We'll not know if this will work until "the big round chick has sung", so the first thing I'm going to do is try to fire up the V8 once it's installed in the Car and hopefully it will run on the re coded but untouched V6 ECU just to make sure it is running on 6, and get a Diagnostic Read on it, if all is well apart from it not seeing Injector 7 and 8 and coil 7 and 8 then I'll try the drivers off the spare ECU's PCB first !!

If that is a dismal failure then Plan B, solder the V6 ECU Immo Chip onto the ECU that came with the V8 Engine Donor Car ;)

Being as anal as I am, I'd like my SLK 500 to report the correct VIN, but if not plan B :grin

Well dinner is calling, but all in all a productive few hours research and yes it can definitely be done .....................

By now you will have probably guessed how anal I am about my Cars, this project like all others I've done must end up looking and driving like it was a car straight from the factory

Cheers for now,

Dave

pix :-

I hope they come out in the right order but i'm sure ya'all will work it out anyway
 

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Ambitious project. I like it.

You're overthinking this a little too much, take a step back Davey...this is a lot easier than you think.

Since you're working with M112/M113 ECU and 722.6, you don't need to do anything about SCN coding or programming or anything. No need to touch anything like that.

All you have to do is to "virginize" the M113 ECU -- I use that word in quotes because it doesn't mean what you think it means -- it is not resetting the ECU back to factory, unprogrammed spec...in 99% cases, virginizing usually means deleting the DAS (and hence unmarrying the ECU, so it becomes single and ready to mingle :p) but leaving the programming and SCN coding intact. So the programming (ECU tune, shift points, etc) and SCN coding for W220 stays intact.

Then you plug in the virginized ECU to the R170 vehicle and go to programming, correction programming and select drive authorization. There you program the ECU to the VIN of the R170, and presto, car will start. That's it.

There, I just gave away my grand secret on how I did my E320 to E36 conversion, or the E320 to E55 conversion. :p

Now, the transmission is a little more complicated. With the V6 TCU in, yes the car will drive and yes the car will shift nice and easy....but the V8 has so much torque that there is a good chance that it'll make mincemeat out of the 722.6 trans. Might take 500 miles, might take 20k miles, who knows. Mercedes is pretty good about overbuilding their transmission, but 80+ hp and 100+ ft/lb torque is pushing it.

And before you ask, yes there is a difference between the V6 and V8 722.6 transmission, the V8 contains thicker clutch packs, 4 instead of 3 planetary gears (I'm not real sure about this, MAVA would know better), and internal gear ratios are different as well.

You could swap in the W220 722.6 as well, but then you'd need to swap in the differential, IIRC the R170 uses 3.07 diff ratio and W220 uses 2.82 ratio. Putting in the W220 transmission but keeping the 3.07 diff ratio will result in gear ratio mismatch and limp mode.
 

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Incidentally, I have been known to plug in a M272 ECU into a M273 car (W211 E350 ECU into W221 S550), programming it and having it up and running....

....though it is as you say, the drivers were missing so the car was only running on 6 cylinder. But it was enough to move it from one warehouse to another warehouse 15 miles away. Couple days later I put in the correct M273 ECU in it and now it's running fine. No real damage. :D

EDIT:

Hold on a minute, if I remember correctly the SLK320 was so small that the M111 i4 and M112 V6 were the only engines that could fit in it. The M112 was cramped in there too. How are you going to drop in the M113 in it? It's longer than the V6, and it'll leave you with no room for an electric fan.
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Hi Guys,

I have seen a Car that is in Kansas that has the M113 V8 in, he used an early l4 car rather than V6 and had issues with the Steering and Exhausts because Bulkhead and Steering gear are different on later V6 Shells, apparantly M113 will fit and Electric Fan, you just have to thin the Plastic Fan shroud down, and mount the radiator in a set of holes that are further forward, it is like MB planned it but never marketed it ;)

The Guy in Kansas has been using the Car, but has running issues, Trans issues etc because he couldn't sort the MB Immo and Wiring so he's using a Megasquirt ECU to run it !!

There is also a guy in Ireland who is doing one, think he may have had Engine in and on mounts by now, so it will be a race between me and he :big laugh:
Not really :grin I'll probably not do the Transplant until this time next year, I'll drive the Car about for a while with the V6 amabob and get it right up to scratch first ;)
@Deplore, thanks for info, I will get back with a proper reply and some questions soon, but it's manic here, guy turning up to buy my Rally Car to fund the new project and major grief with a VW Golf, (Rabbit in USA) lol.

Had to drag rally car out put fresh battery on it and get it running plus wash the green crap off it :laugh

Cheers Guys,

Dave
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Hi Wally,

Nah, I haven't driven it more than a mile a month for the last 3 years and certainly not in anger down a forest track.

Guy has paid in full, he is a mate from Skye & Lochalsh Rally Club, collecting it next week.

Rallying is now hellish expensive in UK, and with all the family tradgedies, hassles and beravements over the last 3 years I can't see me ever having time for that any more :rolleyes:

A full on Stage Rally Car is no fun to drive on the roads, so I can't just get in that and drive it wherever whenever. The SLK and the W220 will fill that gap :grin

OK, so I blew thousands knocking it out so cheap for a quick sale, but I had a bit of craic with it.

It needs paintwork and fettling, which I haven't got time for, so it's good to see it go to a buddy who will get some use out of it, he is out playing Rally Cars almost every weekend :)

So, bye bye V6 Screamer Animal Rally Car hello nice little MB SLK :)

I've all but dealt on a V6 SLK, subject to viewing next Friday and driving it home :)

Cheers for now Dave
 

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Discussion Starter #9
So, following on from yesterdays post, it is bye bye Ford Rally Puma, hello SLK320 V6 ................... Deal is all but done ;)

Pix ........................
 

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Put an M113 E55 in it! Maybe not the M113K, the intercooler and all assorted plumping will be a hassle...but if you're gonna drop in a 5.0 anyway, go all the way and put in the 5.5!
 

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Discussion Starter #11 (Edited)
Hi @Deplore,

:big laugh: ...........Have you ever driven a V6 SLK R170, it's just over 1600kg, it's bloody dangerously quick as is lol :devil

Besides which, I have an M113 55K motor to go in my W220 eventually, so I will then have two 5.0 M113's spare ;)

Transmission wise, yes I know the V6 is weaker than the V8, what I will probably do is leave the V6 one in the Car for initial testing, with it's own TCU and Diff.
SLK320 runs a 3.27 if my sources are correct, my SDS screen Photos seem to confirm that. I reckon the V8 Diff would be needed on a Road Car.

Once the Car is tested out and no issues I will then swap in the V8 Box and Converter after a freshen up, plus the V8 TCU and the V8 Diff, hopefully the V8 TCU Plug is the same as the V6, I will check that out soon :wink

OK, on to your initial reply about the Immo Virginise I have some questions .......................

1) I take it as I don't do Eepromming that means getting my Eeprommer man to Virgin that little 8 legged chip in my pictures ??

2) Is this Chip where SDS reads the VIN from ??

3) Do I then need to have a "Green" Key to perform the marriage on SDS ??

4) Do I need unlocked SDS ??

5) Would simply swapping the 8 legged Chips not do the same thing ??

6) The V6 Car is DAS 2 (Blade Key) and the V8 is DAS 3 IR Key, is that still good to go ??

Thanks in Advance, Dave
 

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Hi @Deplore

Quote:-

Actually, I have. And while yes, the car is quick....you know what makes it even better? MOOOOOORE POWAAAAAH!

LOL, what is it "There ain't no substitute for Cubic Inches" :grin

1. Correct. Got it

2. Yes it does. Got it

3. No, green key is only for EIS. Got it

4. No. Any plain jane SDS will do it. Great, my old one asks for passwords sometimes, my new one is unlocked allegedly but yet to try it in anger.

5. Technically yes, but then you won't have an original V6 ECU that will start the car. Also, this chip holds the SCN coding as well, so it might be easier to have the M113 SCN code present in the M113 ECU. Having M112 SCN code in M113 will work, but weird things might happen? Never tried it. OK, can I alter that SCN ? isn't that just Version Coding on something this age? with Offline SDS ? If so I will try soldering the Drivers onto V6 ECU from that spare V8 unit I have as I'm comfortable with that, but not so comfortable with soldering 8 legged Chip :devil

6. Yes, no problems. I can interchange the ECU from 1997 and 1998-2000 W210 here.... 97 is DAS2 with blade key, 98 went electronic key. Still works. Got it

Incidentally, M112 ECU in a M104 car will start it and it will run.....though I very highly recommend you do not do that. The firing order is out of order, and you get constant backfires.

Scared the crap out of me, lol. ......................... :big laugh:

Cheers Dave
 

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Discussion Starter #13
Hi Guys,

The last unknown quantity will work ................

A quick bit of info, I have verified that the V6 R170 and the V8 C215 / W220 TCU's are both EGS52, so they have the same identical Wiring Plugs, so that opens up various Transmission combinations for the project :grin

I could use a v8 Trans built with a V6 Gearset ratio, and V6 Diff, and stock V6 TCU =humongous acceleration but will be thirsty for fuel at motorway speeds

or

I could use V8 Trans stock, V8 Diff and stock V8 TCU = probably the best set up, car weighs 1660 KG so significantly quicker than W220 but will have sensible Fuel Consumption

or use a combination of bits, aka "Franken Transmission" and find out how to set what number to what number for the SCN Code :rolleyes: probably too much messin' for me.

I'll drive it on V6 Diff / Trans / TCU and if it is waaaaaay too wild and thirsty I will tame it a bit with a V8 W220 Diff / Trans / TCU.

I will check the p/n of Gearsets and number of Clutches in each pack between V6 and V8 Trannys next, as I simply do not know for certain if they are actually any different !!

Maybe @MAVA can chip in here ;)

Cheers for now,

Dave
 

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Discussion Starter #15 (Edited)
I already bought a private plate for it in the same series as my S class one ...................

S for SLK, 50 for 5.0 litre and Dave !!

:grin:grin:grin
 

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Actually the saying is "There's no replacement for displacement!"
^^ I've seen both versions, and in either incarnation, the statement is true. :) The S430 is great, no question. Drove the project S500 to work yesterday, yeah, the difference is there.
@Dave2302, that looks like a sweet car. With that engine, I can imagine the cops' reaction.

Cop 1: That's Dave, he's speeding, pull him over!
(blink their eyes)
Cop 2: Man......DAVE'S NOT HERE!!

:D
 

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Discussion Starter #17
LOL, It is a legal requirement in UK to have a post code on the bottom of Reg Plates so officials can tell who made the plates !! ......................

Can you see the (non existant) "post code" next to the MB writing on the footer, it is SL50 2FU :devil

I don't read anywhere in said stoopid law that it has to actually be a real post code :devil
 

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I don't believe that there is a single state of the fifty that will let you manufacture your own plates, and each state has its own graphics design and letter/number pattern. All are the standard size, though:
"Designs for use in the United States, Canada and Mexico must fit into an 11.44 x 5.44 inch rectangle, with radius corners sized to match the debossing rim in the blanking press."

Georgia recently went from an embossed (raised letters and numbers) aluminum plate with Scotchlite (reflective) background and very fancy semi-hidden holograms in the background to a cheap flat printed non-reflective piece of junk.
 

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Discussion Starter #19 (Edited)
The loophole over here is that you can get mail order for the Illegal ones, note that the way mine is done is almost 100% legal, except that the U is slightly narrowed to make it look a little more like a V ;)

Of course way back, when I bought S55 if I could have got DAV I would have, but that series has been allocated long ago and fetch silly money ;)

I bought the number on retention yesterday, ordered the plates from mr "X" and they turned up today ;)
 

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Hi Guys,

The last unknown quantity will work ................

A quick bit of info, I have verified that the V6 R170 and the V8 C215 / W220 TCU's are both EGS52, so they have the same identical Wiring Plugs, so that opens up various Transmission combinations for the project :grin

I could use a v8 Trans built with a V6 Gearset ratio, and V6 Diff, and stock V6 TCU =humongous acceleration but will be thirsty for fuel at motorway speeds

or

I could use V8 Trans stock, V8 Diff and stock V8 TCU = probably the best set up, car weighs 1660 KG so significantly quicker than W220 but will have sensible Fuel Consumption

or use a combination of bits, aka "Franken Transmission" and find out how to set what number to what number for the SCN Code :rolleyes: probably too much messin' for me.

I'll drive it on V6 Diff / Trans / TCU and if it is waaaaaay too wild and thirsty I will tame it a bit with a V8 W220 Diff / Trans / TCU.

I will check the p/n of Gearsets and number of Clutches in each pack between V6 and V8 Trannys next, as I simply do not know for certain if they are actually any different !!

Maybe @MAVA can chip in here ;)

Cheers for now,

Dave
Dave,

Off the gate, V6 tranny has three pinion transmission output shaft, and the V8's/V12's have four pinion transmission output shaft, so that will not work.

Also, the differential for that specific model must go with that engine, but I guess you could always change the reluctor rings on the half shafts where the car gets it speed feedback, but then the speedo/odometer have timing issues too...

Try the tranny and differential first...

The TCMs have different CAN bus versions, so stay with the generation of the same years as the vehicle. If you get a AMG tranny, get the AMG TCU, or you may get some really hard shifts at low Km/hr (bumper to bumper traffic). They may feel like you are getting hit from the rear on every shift. No mixing.

Martin
 
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