[jhodg5ck]

Wanted to post this here after finding some Serious rust on a 98 E420. Car has 80K on it and owner was complaining of a scraping sound when ever he went over bumps etc. Anyway, the drivers side spring tower/cup was rusting at it's attachment point on the chassis and had ripped 1/2 off. Below are pictures.

Failure of this piece at speed would Surely be catastrophic.


Jonathan

 

[sosh]

Sounds to me like this owner has not maintained his car correctly which is no excuse for the rust. There was however a bulletin on this problem with the 210 along with required corrective action. Looks to me as if nobody has looked under this car for some time and that he has had maint done at a shop that does not pay attention to TSB's. Another reason to use your dealer and not a half assed independent.

 

[jhodg5ck]

Actually, he has been using a dealer...they IMHO are the half assed lot.. If the computer doesn't tell them that there is a problem, then no problem exists..! He came to my shop as the dealer couldn't get him in for a few days.


His brakes were done a little over a year ago, dealer didn't notice anything then an I'm Sure there were signs of rust in there. I was also amazed at how Thin the metal is that hold this stuff together.

I've seen a lot of bad rust on MB's, namely 116's, 107's, but nothing quite like this..


Jonathan

 

[Six_wheeler]

This is horrendous!

 

[JG]

You guys that are surprised about this are not keeping up on the forums. This has been discussed a lot over the past year or more. It is by no means the owner's fault but MBs to properly seal the metal during production. I have a rusting 97 E320 myself, however my spring perches seem to be holding up.

 

[E300POS]

"Sounds to me like this owner has not maintained his car correctly which is no excuse for the rust."

This is supposed to be a Mercedes. The owner of a luxury marque like Mercedes should not be required to do anything but scheduled maintenance and ensuring there is sufficient fuel. Readers of forums such as this are generally DIY's at some level or other. A TSB is no where near sufficient. The first time a spring perch fails on some executive's wife and children as she cruises merrily along at 70 MPH to a band recital, you can be sure a recall will occur. As his lawyer shows the jury and the nightly news the smoldering remains of his car and his family after she exited the highway, crossed the median and crashed head on into an 18 wheeler, the recall will be the least of DC's problem.

Looking at those pictures is fightening.

 

[sosh]

E300POS - 4/23/2005 12:52 AM

"Sounds to me like this owner has not maintained his car correctly which is no excuse for the rust."

This is supposed to be a Mercedes. The owner of a luxury marque like Mercedes should not be required to do anything but scheduled maintenance and ensuring there is sufficient fuel. Readers of forums such as this are generally DIY's at some level or other. A TSB is no where near sufficient. The first time a spring perch fails on some executive's wife and children as she cruises merrily along at 70 MPH to a band recital, you can be sure a recall will occur. As his lawyer shows the jury and the nightly news the smoldering remains of his car and his family after she exited the highway, crossed the median and crashed head on into an 18 wheeler, the recall will be the least of DC's problem.

Looking at those pictures is fightening.

Look, no matter how high quality a piece of machinery is it does require repairs, inspection and maintenence. Don't be niave, Its very clear that no one has looked at this vehicle for some time. That rust did not happen overnight. The MB maint schedule does call for inspections. I am not excusing the rust but I do blame the owner for not doing the correct inspections and taking early action, before it got this far. If you have the same philosophy I certainly would not like to ride in your car!!

 

[jhodg5ck]

This fellow brought his car to the DEALER for all his service... What 'more' was he supposed to do???
Climb under there and give his car a detailed inspection every month? One of the reasons I was drawn to MB was because they USED to be nearly indestructible. A situation such as this is Unacceptable by any measure.

Why is it the factory managed to make my 126's able to w/ stand rust for 20 years but this car can't last 7 in the South!!!

Just another demonstration of how DC is a shadow of it's former self.

Jonathan

 

[Six_wheeler]

Just another demonstration of how DC is a shadow of it's former self.

Amen!

 

[SaMaS]

Hi everyone, my friend had E 98, one place we found bad rust was in the back of the car, and it was becouse car was in accident about 6 year ago, and that side of the car was "fixed" Does this car was in accident? It's just a thought ...

 

[E300POS]

"Look, no matter how high quality a piece of machinery is it does require repairs, inspection and maintenence."

Step away from the coolaid. The point here is this is not a quality piece of machinery. It is highly priced low quality junk. This might be expected of a Japanese car in the late sixties and early seventies. This might be expected of a Yugo although I think their quality control process was superior to the current Mercedes process.

Whenever someone points out an issue with the current Mercedes product some long term Mercedes fan points out how a superior machine requires superior care. Superior maintenance or the lack thereof does not excuse rust on spring perches or door panels on a car less then a decade old. It does not explain expensive transmissions frequently requiring rebuild or replacement at less then 100K miles. It doesn't explain sunroofs that won't open or close or windows that fall into the doors without notice. It doesn't explain a/c units that routinely fail or glow plugs on diesels that are near impossible to get out without removing the head. It doesn't explain the whole myriad of electrical problems. Can you explain why a software change is needed as a recall or TSB for the charging system? Isn't a 20 dollar voltage regulator fancy enough? Or software changes for window motors? How long have these proven components been around? Have you seen any five or ten year old Mercedes that didn't have clouded headlights?

All the rest of the problems are merely sufficient enough to prevent some here and many elsewhere to from buying another Mercedes product for a long while or maybe forever. Some here who grant the huge quality advantage to the Japanese luxury marques always close by saying they still appreciate the German "spirit" of there Mercedes. That will change after driving a Lexus or Infinity for 100K miles and only needing to replace wear items like tire and oil. This problem, however, is scary. This is no routine inspection item. This is sufficient for a recall and I hope a fatality isn't required to get one started. BTW, if the current Mercedes management was running an airline, would anyone here let their family fly on it? Please disregard the appearance of corrosion on the wing root. It is simply a routine maintenance item scheduled for repair during the next maintenance period.

 

[ackvig]

E300POS - 4/23/2005 12:11 PM

"Look, no matter how high quality a piece of machinery is it does require repairs, inspection and maintenence."

Step away from the coolaid. The point here is this is not a quality piece of machinery. It is highly priced low quality junk. This might be expected of a Japanese car in the late sixties and early seventies. This might be expected of a Yugo although I think their quality control process was superior to the current Mercedes process.

Whenever someone points out an issue with the current Mercedes product some long term Mercedes fan points out how a superior machine requires superior care. Superior maintenance or the lack thereof does not excuse rust on spring perches or door panels on a car less then a decade old. It does not explain expensive transmissions frequently requiring rebuild or replacement at less then 100K miles. It doesn't explain sunroofs that won't open or close or windows that fall into the doors without notice. It doesn't explain a/c units that routinely fail or glow plugs on diesels that are near impossible to get out without removing the head. It doesn't explain the whole myriad of electrical problems. Can you explain why a software change is needed as a recall or TSB for the charging system? Isn't a 20 dollar voltage regulator fancy enough? Or software changes for window motors? How long have these proven components been around? Have you seen any five or ten year old Mercedes that didn't have clouded headlights?

All the rest of the problems are merely sufficient enough to prevent some here and many elsewhere to from buying another Mercedes product for a long while or maybe forever. Some here who grant the huge quality advantage to the Japanese luxury marques always close by saying they still appreciate the German "spirit" of there Mercedes. That will change after driving a Lexus or Infinity for 100K miles and only needing to replace wear items like tire and oil. This problem, however, is scary. This is no routine inspection item. This is sufficient for a recall and I hope a fatality isn't required to get one started. BTW, if the current Mercedes management was running an airline, would anyone here let their family fly on it? Please disregard the appearance of corrosion on the wing root. It is simply a routine maintenance item scheduled for repair during the next maintenance period.

PULITZER WORTHY!!![^] Hell of a post, one of the best summations of the state of DC I've read in a LONG time. I've almost been kicked of the w140 board on plenty of occasions for trying to make this very same point to the resident "SOSH's" over there; people who excused EVERYTHING about the car because, "Hey, it's a Mercedes." Then they always wrap up with, "Well, if you couldn't afford it (ALL the endless repairs), then you shouldn't have..." And of, course, the very last part is always, just as SOSH indicated, the problems with the car are MY (the owner's) fault, OR my mechanic's (independent), but NEVER MB's. Smell the coffee!

 

[e320mule]

I think we need to put things in perspective here.
First, this type of rust is unacceptable. Period.
What we don't know, however, is what Mercedes has done, if anything, about this problem for this owner. The photo is someone else's car, not the person who posted the photo. I can tell you that Mercedes would be working out some type of acceptable compromise with me if that was my car. While this level of rust is unacceptable under any circumstance, we also don't know the history of the car. Did it live in an area of the country where they salt/chemical the roads a lot? While, as pointed out, there is a rust problem with these cars, if you live in the rust belt, you should expect some rust (again, not to this level). You have some responsibility if you live in a rust region to thoroghly wash off your car (yes, and that includes the inside of your fender wells) often. Also, that rust didn't happen over night. Come on. Take a peek under your fender wells from time to time.
Finally, as to the argument that Lexus, Infiniti, etc. are superior, remember that a lot of us (maybe most of us here) have no rust problems and few maintenance problems. I've driven the Japanese competition. They're fine cars. But they don't have that German feel like Mercedes and BMW. Maybe the Japanese cars are for people who never "get in tune with their cars". Turn the key, change the oil, and know nothing else about the car. For those of us who buy a used Mercedes in great shape with no rust for less than half the price of a Japanese car, nobody is going to convince us that "those" cars are a better deal.

 

[e320mule]

I'd like to add something here. It's a little off the rust topic, but responds to those who "will never buy another Merceds again", and buy an Infiniti or Lexus, etc. instead. Everyone has different priorities when buying a car. I bought my W210 because the design has a soul. The design borrows cues from 75 years of Mercedes cars, and is utterly beautifully executed art in motion. Take a look at the first Infiniti from 1989. Does it look anything like the Infiniti of today? No. I'm sorry, but the Japanese cars, for all their advancement, etc., scream "GENERIC". The other part of the BMW and Mercedes "soul" is decades of racing to perfect their street cars. Do you see an Infiniti/McLaren F1 team? No. That's part of what some of us consider when we choose a Mercedes or BMW over the Jap cars. If your only concern is "maintenance free", then by all means, the Japanese cars are for you.

 

[sosh]

jhodg5ck - 4/23/2005 10:52 AM

This fellow brought his car to the DEALER for all his service... What 'more' was he supposed to do???
Climb under there and give his car a detailed inspection every month? One of the reasons I was drawn to MB was because they USED to be nearly indestructible. A situation such as this is Unacceptable by any measure.

Why is it the factory managed to make my 126's able to w/ stand rust for 20 years but this car can't last 7 in the South!!!

Just another demonstration of how DC is a shadow of it's former self.

Jonathan

They used to be indestructable ??? Don't not know how far back you go with MB but I purchased my first in 1974, a 450SL. Had it for 60000 miles and 4 years. Had lots of problems that we do not see today. I remember 3 replacements of engine valve seals, 2 trans rear pumps replaced, several Blaupunct radios, some electrical problems with the headlights and yes, some rust. There was more, also that I can't recall. But it was a nice, safe car and it always ran, albeit not always well. Had a number of BMW's also in the 80's they had their problems also. Worst I ever had was a 1993 Cadillac Seville STS. Swore me off of any GM car in the future. Still, no excuse for the rust in that vehicle but perhaps it was damaged and repaired incorrectly. Its unlikely that the present owner was its first. There is also no excuse for the dealer not picking up on that problem early on if in fact it did go to a dealer for its routine maint and inspections.

 

[E300POS]

E320 Mule, you have indeed dipped deeply into the punch bowl. You seem to have almost followed what I wrote as if on a flowchart. First you blame the owner for not washing the salt laden dirt away, then explain it away as being one who is "in tune" with your car that has a "soul". You still are arguing on emotion vice logic. If salt is the problem and simply washing the wheelwells corrects it, why isn't the problem more widespread? Do you thing the owners of Geo Metros are more diligent in their maintenance or maybe Chevy sprint owners have easier access to car washes? Plus, have you looked under your wheel wells lately? You can't get water to all the locations that are problems without removing the inner wheel well? Is that on the required maintenance list? Further, this problem is more widespread. Southern cars have experienced the same problem. No salt problem there. And others who reported these problems here and in other forums said Mercedes offered no help in resolving the issue. In fact, they say there is no issue.

Perhaps the design has soul. Perhaps you can pick out the Mercedes from a Kia Amanti or a Hyundai Sonata. Can any of your non-enthusiast friends? My daughters boyfriend ribs me about the quality of my Mercedes as compared to Hyundais's he's seen since he hasn't seen any Hyundai's headlights fog over like most here have seen on their cars. Even if they do, it could easily be overlooked once you figure the 30K price difference. Styling is not an issue. The Mona Lisa may be a work of art but you wouldn't know it today if the paint fell off the canvas after the warrantee expired. BTW, speaking of German styling. You may like the current rendition. Have you asked your BMW owning friends about their dislike with the current styling coming from that marque?

Sosh, you wrote that your '74 was, if nothing else, a nice safe car. How do you know that? Were you involved in a serious accident? Many owners of the newer Benzes should consider this. Many will overlook the quality issue to achieve ownership of a marque with some cachet (as long as that remains anyway), artful styling and perhaps most of all SAFETY. You know (actually assume) that Mercedes engineers have designed the car to sacrifice itself for your family in the event of a bad accident. Assume that's true. You now have seen numerous incidents where structural components have failed because of cost cutting at the factory. How will you feel as that drunk careens head on into your car and you can only hope the bean counters, who overrode the engineers, made the cost cutting decisions in the right places. Fogged over headlights won't concern me. If you ever have been in a serious accident, you may remember the event slowed down in your brain and you could watch it unfold, as it occurred, in slow motion. If, God forbid, it happens in a current Mercedes, the thought going through my head will be the pictures posted above and others I've heard like it.

Anyone remember the abysmal quality of American cars in the 60's and 70's? They had the market to themselves and it was either their way or the highway. That sentiment allowed the asian producers to get a toehold and run with it from there. What it also did was force the Americans to work harder on design and quality control. Say what you will but my Ford truck is significantly more reliable then my Mercedes. Same for my daughter's Kia. Those coolaid drinkers who find no fault with DC are complicit in the continued lowering of standards there. Why change if the market doesn't require it?

 

[Bodgit]

My "new" 1996 E300 has bad spring perches. They look OK on casual inspection but are rusting behind the perch and I'm scheduling the replacement at the dealer. Since I also drive 70mph to work and don't want to have the car fall apart when I hit a pothole, I think this is essential. I'm the 3rd owner of this car. I've had MB's since 1973 and worked on them too. My dealer service rep told me to inspect the springs and perches. They know it's a typical problem. It's not from bad maintenance! MB has appaently quietly been making good on many of these. I too feel the quality is slipping with time. These cars have always had an ownership tax though- the high cost of the parts and service! I like the ride. It's overall a good car but my 02 G500 has had 25 dealer visits for flaws and 02 E320 has had about 10 visits. My 03 Chevy truck has had 2 visits by comparison.
The rust issue isn't maintenance though, it's a design and production defect. For the guys who doubt this, wait till your spring perches sh-t out. Then you will agree.
Steve
Pittsford, NY (near the Asko salt mines.)

 

[sosh]

E300POS - 4/24/2005 6:46 PM

E320 Mule, you have indeed dipped deeply into the punch bowl. You seem to have almost followed what I wrote as if on a flowchart. First you blame the owner for not washing the salt laden dirt away, then explain it away as being one who is "in tune" with your car that has a "soul". You still are arguing on emotion vice logic. If salt is the problem and simply washing the wheelwells corrects it, why isn't the problem more widespread? Do you thing the owners of Geo Metros are more diligent in their maintenance or maybe Chevy sprint owners have easier access to car washes? Plus, have you looked under your wheel wells lately? You can't get water to all the locations that are problems without removing the inner wheel well? Is that on the required maintenance list? Further, this problem is more widespread. Southern cars have experienced the same problem. No salt problem there. And others who reported these problems here and in other forums said Mercedes offered no help in resolving the issue. In fact, they say there is no issue.

Perhaps the design has soul. Perhaps you can pick out the Mercedes from a Kia Amanti or a Hyundai Sonata. Can any of your non-enthusiast friends? My daughters boyfriend ribs me about the quality of my Mercedes as compared to Hyundais's he's seen since he hasn't seen any Hyundai's headlights fog over like most here have seen on their cars. Even if they do, it could easily be overlooked once you figure the 30K price difference. Styling is not an issue. The Mona Lisa may be a work of art but you wouldn't know it today if the paint fell off the canvas after the warrantee expired. BTW, speaking of German styling. You may like the current rendition. Have you asked your BMW owning friends about their dislike with the current styling coming from that marque?

Sosh, you wrote that your '74 was, if nothing else, a nice safe car. How do you know that? Were you involved in a serious accident? Many owners of the newer Benzes should consider this. Many will overlook the quality issue to achieve ownership of a marque with some cachet (as long as that remains anyway), artful styling and perhaps most of all SAFETY. You know (actually assume) that Mercedes engineers have designed the car to sacrifice itself for your family in the event of a bad accident. Assume that's true. You now have seen numerous incidents where structural components have failed because of cost cutting at the factory. How will you feel as that drunk careens head on into your car and you can only hope the bean counters, who overrode the engineers, made the cost cutting decisions in the right places. Fogged over headlights won't concern me. If you ever have been in a serious accident, you may remember the event slowed down in your brain and you could watch it unfold, as it occurred, in slow motion. If, God forbid, it happens in a current Mercedes, the thought going through my head will be the pictures posted above and others I've heard like it.

Anyone remember the abysmal quality of American cars in the 60's and 70's? They had the market to themselves and it was either their way or the highway. That sentiment allowed the asian producers to get a toehold and run with it from there. What it also did was force the Americans to work harder on design and quality control. Say what you will but my Ford truck is significantly more reliable then my Mercedes. Same for my daughter's Kia. Those coolaid drinkers who find no fault with DC are complicit in the continued lowering of standards there. Why change if the market doesn't require it?

Yes, I was involved in a very serious accident in that car at the end of my ownership. Without going into detail it was proven in court that I was not at fault. I and my passenger were not injured other than minor cuts and there were serious life threatening injuries in the other car that hit me broadside and flipped over. And, yes my top was down and we were wearing our belts as were the 3 occupants of the other car, a 1976 (new)Cadillac.

 

[e320mule]

To E300POS (presumably 'POS' stands for 'Piece Of S**t'). We don't all have a POS, as you evidently did/do.
As for following your purported "flow chart", you conveniently omit my other points, starting with the fact I'm not excusing the rust, so as to fit into your "flow chart". Secondly, I stated that we all have different priorities when buying a car. For me, it's design integrity, design evolution, heritage, and yes, the "soul" embodied in the design and character of the car. I'm into architecture and design, in addition to utility and reliability, and my W210 includes all of these. I'm not sure what your motivation in coming to this board is other than personal vendetta against MB due to your POS experience. Does it make you feel better to leave negative comments about MB here? I paid less than the price of a new KIA for my '98, and dollar for dollar, it's a hell of a lot more bang for the buck. I fully respect people who have different priorities when buying a car, and for some, a Ford truck and a KIA is the way to go. Most people are fine with "generic" and "bland". That's why Ford trucks (and maybe KIAs) outsell MB. As far as overall MB reliability, before I bought my W210, I researched it on both www.carpoint.com and Consumer Reports, which are much larger sample groups than this board, and both come out with about a 4.5 out of 5 overall rating across several categories. A MB 'POS' is the exception, not the rule. But I'm not here to persuade the masses. To each their own. Long live freedom of choice.

 

[f-rod]

There is always someone with a bad experience. However, research and reporting entities consistently rate the MB as high a quality product. The W210 has been rated 'best buy' and 'safest car' on separate occasions. At a price tag of 50k+, being 'best buy' is a big accomplishment.

Regarding the "soul" of the car, I am regularly amazed at how good an '80s model MB looks compared to any other make. The 'timeless' look is clearly evident on MB, on other makes it is almost always an exception.
I bought my E expecting to never again buy another car. That means this car must last 20+ years. I'm confident it will make it ... in style!