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Discussion Starter #61
Typically, yes. But apparently these are different. Maybe it's because it's only 8 N-m.
 

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When I first saw that mention of TTY I seriously doubted it on W220, and obviously if the figure is 8Nm and no angle quoted then they are not TTY

I do believe later vehicles do use TTY on certain bolts, (7GTronic Sump Pan Bolts is a good example), but not this application on this Engine ;)

HTH,
 

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2009 E350 4M Avant Garde, My Mistress 2002 S600, Wife 2014 C300 4M Avant Garde with AMG
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When I did my engine and religiously followed the WIS it said to replace the bolts - not reuse them. My friends at MB said the same; don't re-use shanked bolts as SOP.
5 years ago, car still runs fine.
 

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BTW: for other shanked bolts MB s.a. head bolts, the WIS gives measuring instructions to verify before reuse, which I followed.
 

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Discussion Starter #65
OK, I've got WIS open now. The document is "ar09.41-p-1310hh", title = "Remove/install charge air manifold". Here's what it says.

(Picture of the intake manifold, with the gaskets and such)

1.) Remove fuel distributor rail (1). AR07.03-P-1451H
2.) Remove hose (3) of crankcase ventilation system. Check hose (3) and hose clamp for damage, replace if required.
3.) Detach hose (2) at charge air manifold (4). Check hose (2) and hose clamp for damage, replace if required.
4.) Detach rear vacuum supply hose of brake system at charge air manifold (4). Engine 275: Check vacuum supply hose and hose clamp for damage, replace if required.
5.) Remove bolts (5) of charge air manifold (4) (Nm) BA09.20-P-1001-01L
6.) Take out charge air manifold (4). Installation: Replace seals (6).. (yes, there are two periods at the end of that sentence in WIS!)
7.) Install in the reverse order.

Nm - Intake manifold
BA09.20-P-1001-01L: Bolt, intake manifold to cylinder head M6 Nm: 8 (Engine 275, 285)

That's what the book says. I do note that it does not specify to replace these bolts anywhere in this document. Apparently they are reusable!

By the way, I noted in WIS that the torque spec for the four throttle body bolts is also 8 N-m. WIS did not specify to replace those, either, so apparently they, too, are reusable.
 

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Discussion Starter #66
Also, I got the engine back together this evening. When I started it, it would stay at high idle, about 1,400 RPM. When I would tap the accelerator, it would zoom up to 3,100 RPM for several seconds, drop down, and start up again. The only way to stop that 3,100 "idle" was to turn off the engine. Time for troubleshooting!

Got SDS on the car and went to ME-SFI Actuations. Did the throttle body test. Yep, the throttle body itself appears to be working fine. Replaced the accelerator pedal with a known working spare, and same results as before. What in tarnation is going on?

I pulled off the throttle body Y-pipe, and the throttle body was completely shut. Started the engine again and pushed it open just a little bit. Engine wanted to rev but sounded like it was "flaming out", so I let go. Tapped the accelerator pedal again, and it did the 3,100 RPM for several seconds, then drop, then right back to 3,100 RPM. Watched the throttle body. During the 3,100 RPM rev, it cracked open just a little. During the (very short) dips, the throttle body closed. Seems that whatever signaling the throttle body is getting, it's obeying.

WOT COULD IT BEEEE????

The clue was the throttle body's behaviour. Totally shut, the engine's at 1,400 RPM. Cracked open just a little, it's going straight to 3,100 RPM, probably limited only by the stall speed of the transmission. Turbos, at this point disconnected from the intercoolers and deliberately moved out of the way of said intercoolers's intakes, were sucking in blowing out plenty of air, so they're working right. The only air source should be atmospheric pressure at that throttle body, and it was closed totally.

But clearly this engine's getting air from somewhere. The question is...where?

Then I remembered this little thing called a vacuum supply hose that goes in the back of the intake manifold. You know the one, where that red knob is? Yeah, that one. Yes, fellow BenzWorld members, I had forgotten to put that back in! There's a nice, one centimetre hole in the back of the intake manifold for air to rush right in! DUH......

So, I'm now waiting for the engine to cool down so's I can correct my dumb mistake. Ah, well...that's how one learns, sometimes.
 

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Discussion Starter #67 (Edited)
FAILURE.

I got the vacuum supply hose back in easily enough. Cleared all codes and started it up. Temperature was just above 40 deg. C. Engine started idling normally. I had SDS on the car, watching the misfire count to see if it would go up.

Yep, it did. :-(

The usual suspects, cylinders 1-6, started going up and got worse as the engine came to temperature. Cylinders 8, 10, and 12 also started showing misfires. Eventually, the engine's computer shut down the following cylinders.

Right bank: 2, 3, 4, 5, 6
Left bank: 8, 10, 12

All are "Misfiring, damages TWC" messages.

I waited about 30 minutes or so and tried it again, clearing all codes. Seems that 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 10 consistently do this and throw the codes.

I've replaced everything within reason, short of the head gaskets, I think. As before, the misfiring only happens at idle and nowhere else. If we're at 1,400 RPM, no problems. At 3,100 RPM, no problems. At 1,000 RPM, no problems. We can only get so precise with the accelerator pedal; I got as low as 775 RPM's and could see that the misfires, while occasionally happening, slowed waaaaay down. Idle is currently set to the maximum of 630 RPM, both for Park/Neutral and "in gear".

I'm not sure where to go from here now. Any ideas?
 

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Hi @cowboyt

Wowwwwser :(
I am very sorry to here this :cry:

Compression Test, (with a gauge), not the SDS test ...................

??????????????????????
 

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Discussion Starter #70
Someone else just this morning also suggested a compression test. Smoke test is also a good idea when the wind is still. Will do those next.
 

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The two coil/plug MBZ ignition systems are very complicated electronically. The 30KV 'spark' is actually turned on and off several KHZ for enough time for the crankshaft to rotate specified amount. Then a 1000V DC pulse is sent to the spark plugs and the current flow relates to the 'ionization plasma' , which relates to how well the combustion went. A MISFIRE code is set if the 1000V current flow is not correct (very tight tolerance) , Thus the misfire code may not mean a 'real' misfire. and the 'roughness' may well be the ignition system shutting off fuel to that cylinder to protect the cats.
SOME spark plugs from Dealers are defective and will trigger the misfire codes, but yet work just fine in other cylinders or engines.
 

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Discussion Starter #72 (Edited)
Funny you mention that, @kebowers47 . I was thinking about that last night. The car, see, doesn't feel like it's actually misfiring at all; the engine feels smooth as a sunbeam. Rather, the misfire count in the computer is simply going up. It is after a couple of cycles of incrementing counts (I think the count resets to zero every 60 seconds) that the ECU shuts off the cylinders. I am using NGK iridium spark plugs. It might be a good idea to switch out those spark plugs.

Alternately, perhaps there's a setting in Developer Mode to ignore the results of that ionization plasma. :) Might be worth looking for as a backup plan, to see if it exists.

Still going to do a pressure test and smoke test, though. Cylinder pressure gauge (an older "made in USA" one) is on the way as of tonight.
 

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Discussion Starter #73
Thanks to the freezing rain, no smoke or pressure tests today. That'll have to wait until tomorrow. Fortunately, I do now have a cylinder pressure tester.

But I found out something else today! Check this out.

Someone on the other forum had mentioned to do the throttle body reset procedure. Apparently there are two of them.

The first one is this, found over at the Mercedes Medic Web site.

http://www.mercedesmedic.com/mercede...ensor-problem/

The second one is apparently to turn the car on, without starting the engine, and letting it sit for about 3 minutes or so. I let it sit for five, to be sure.

I did both methods, and in the above order. Then I started the car and warmed the engine up to operating temperature by giving it some gas. All this time, I had the SDS's Fault Counter screen up, watching it like a hawk. No fault counts until idle, as before, but something interesting happened. I've mentioned before that Cylinder Bank 1-6 is the usual culprit. However, this time it was Cylinder Bank 7-12 for which the misfire count started shooting up! Now, that was unexpected. I did get a Check Engine Light, though the cylinders did not get shut down as I started giving it a little gas to ward that off.

Cleared all codes, restarted the engine, and it went back to Cylinder Bank 1-6, with Cylinder 12 also showing a rising misfire count.

What happened next is what I thought was the really interesting part of today's testing.

After holding the engine speed at, say, 1500 RPM for a couple of minutes and then letting go (temperature is just over 90 deg. C at this point), the car settled down to about 750 RPM and took a few minutes to go down to idle, set at 630 RPM. It went to idle gradually, bit by bit. This allowed me to watch the misfire count of the computer (remember, the engine doesn't feel one bit like it's actually misfiring; this is the computer count). We registered no misfires until we got right to the idle point. The engine fault counter's RPM resolution is every 25 RPM, so it was showing 625 RPM. That's when the misfire count went up. It did not go up when it was any higher than that, including between 650 and 675 RPM. Only when we were right at the set idle point did misfire counts go up. If it matters, the car was in Park this whole time.

So, I thought, OK, let's set the idle back to 590 RPM, which appears to be the factory default setting, and let's try that again. Sure enough, even at 625 RPM, misfire count did not shoot up! When I got to between 575 and 600 RPM (remember the resolution here in the fault counter is every 25 RPM), the misfire count started shooting up. All this time, the engine's still actually running smoothly as the wet ice currently outside.

So, it doesn't appear to matter where the idle point is set. Whatever it is, if engine RPM is right there, misfire count goes up. If we're just a little bit higher, it doesn't go up, even just 25 to 50 RPM.

So, the interesting question here is, what would cause the misfire count to go up only when we're right at idle RPM, while even 25-50 RPM higher than that keeps misfire counts from going up?
 

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Hi @cowboyt ,

OK, I've not physically checked this on MB's but on most other Cars there is a switching point for Idle, Part Throttle and WOT in live data ...........

Look at "Actual values" for your Throttle Pedal, if it's the same there should be one for Idle ...........

Is it actually switching to "Idle" when your accelerator pedal is "foot right off accelerator position" and then "part Throttle" when you nudge it down a "gnats doo da" ????

HTH,
 

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Discussion Starter #75 (Edited)
Indeed, there is such a thing; I noticed it yesterday. It's called, "Idle Detect", and when my foot's off, it shows "YES". When my foot's off, it switches to "NO". I'll find out again where it is and let you know.

ALL RIGHT...WTF IS GOING ON WITH THIS FORUM SOFTWARE?? I attached a bunch of pics inline, and before it would respect that, as well as the text that I had put in surrounding them. However, all the text I added before each pic is now GONE after hitting Submit. Let's try this again.

Pic #1. Started the engine, it's at 60 degrees and still coming up to temperature. Before I had started the engine, I had run through the throttle body readaptation, per a suggestion at the other forum. You can see that by "Throttle Valve Stop Learned: YES".

Note that Engine Speed is 699, right in the middle of the listed tolerances of 650 to 750. Idle Speed Detection = ON. Throttle Valve Angle = 0.6, which is in the listed tolerance of 0.5 to 2.5 degrees.

IMG_1607.jpg



Pic #2. Engine is continuing to warm up, as you can see by the tolerances for Engine Speed having dropped a little (634 to 734 RPM). We're at 691, with Idle Speed Detection = ON. I had just let off the accelerator pedal, which probably explains the B37 (Accelerator Pedal Sensor) Signal 1 being just slightly high, at 0.54 V.

But look at the Throttle Valve Angle here. It's now below tolerance, at 0.3 degrees. Hmm....

IMG_1608.jpg



Time to see if I can find out at which RPM the Idle Speed Detection goes from ON to OFF. It takes a very patient right foot to get it close. I got it to 739 RPM to get it to turn off. Throttle Valve Angle is at 0.6, which is now in tolerance.

IMG_1609.jpg



The engine is now warmed up, at 80 deg. C. Note that the engine idle tolerances have now dropped to 540 to 640 RPM. Apparently 640 RPM is the max now; we'll get to that later. We're at 612 RPM, with Idle Speed Detection back to being ON.

Note the Throttle Valve Angle, though. We're at 0.0 degrees! Isn't it supposed to be 0.5 to 2.5 degrees? Doesn't this mean that the throttle valve is completely shut, and if so, how is air getting in there? And if it is coming in through somewhere other than the throttle body...are we running a lean mixture here when at idle?

IMG_1610.jpg



Same idea as above, down to 609 RPM. Throttle Valve Angle is at 0.0 degrees. We are idling, as shown by the Idle Speed Detection.

IMG_1611.jpg



Let's set idle back up to max, in this case, 640 RPM (why it's 640 now when it had been 630 before, I dunno). We're idling, and again, the Throttle Valve Angle is at 0.0 degrees.

IMG_1612.jpg



Conclusion: SOMEHOW...a little air is getting in through an unauthorized channel, i. e. other than the throttle body. This is what the smoke test will hopefully show us.
 

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So, vacuum leak?
 

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1998 MB E300TD, 1997 MB E36 AMG, 2001 MB E55 AMG
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So the M275 has one (1) throttle body? Singular?

Somehow I was under the impression that MB changed things after M137 and went dual throttles.
 

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Discussion Starter #78
Yep, singular. There's one throttle body in the center, much like with the V8's. It appears that they simply moved the throttle body closer to the front of the car on the M275's intake manifold.
 

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Discussion Starter #79
Automotive smoke tester is now on the way, as of tonight; should be here by Friday, just in time for the weekend. I found one that I can actually reasonably afford. This is how mechanics get tools, apparently. :)
 

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Discussion Starter #80
Automotive smoke tester arrived Thursday evening. It is now Saturday evening, and I've been working on this car. It is an AutoLite Pro model, the "Economy" model, for US $75. Requires an air compressor that can supply 1 PSI, and any cheapo air compressor can easily do that and much more. As long as you power it by something that can supply 6A at 12VDC, it is a pretty neat little smoke generator. Works on mineral oil or baby oil from your local grocery store or drug store.

There indeed was a leak! Remember how I'd mentioned the large black vacuum hose, above, that I'd forgotten to plug in? Well, there's a little nipple on the back of the Intake Manifold for a second, smaller vacuum hose. That second, smaller vacuum hose connects the Intake Manifold to that whole complex with the Divert Air Switchover Valve, Air Pump Switchover Valve, Vacuum Tank, Vacuum Check Valve, and Boost Pressure Control Pressure Transducer. All that stuff. It's easy to miss because it consists of a rubber elbow and a 3cm or so section of that blue translucent vacuum hose. Well, the smoke started coming right out of there after about 30 seconds or so on the smoke tester. DUH!

Here's a diagram showing what I'm talking about, with the vacuum hose system.

2619014
On the diagram, it's on the bottom (rear) of the intake manifold. You can see the right-angle connector, with its line going into the three-way rubber connector.

Fortunately, I had ordered said right-angle rubber connector (three of 'em, actually, just in case), and so in a few minutes, that got installed where it's supposed to be.

After that, I put the smoke tester back on and hit the compressor. Nothing coming out anymore.

Time to start the engine.

Turns out Cylinder #4 wanted to be a bit of a problem child with the fault counter zooming way up there to over 200 in short order; the ECM shut down that cylinder. Even revving the engine didn't stop the count from going up; if anything, the count might've started going up a bit faster. Cylinder #9 wasn't too happy, either and also got shut down. However, the other cylinders didn't see quite as fault-happy as they had previously. It's possible that might be due to the mineral oil-based smoke throughout the intake manifold. So, I cleared all codes and started up the engine again. Revved it some. However, once the engine came to temperature (just above 80 Celsius), the fault counters stopped going up. Holding steady at 0. Engine temperature is now showing 95 Celsius, since we're still stationary. Now, this could be promising....

Time to get the car off of the jackstands, put the hood down, and take it for a little drive. Give it a bit of exercise; it's been at least four months. The SDS computer remained hooked up, with the Engine Fault Counter up.

The car still has no exhaust system on it, other than the catalytic converters, so you can hear the engine. Stepped on it from a slow roll a couple of times. Car pinned me back in the seat as expected. Made me giggle. :) The test drive was about 15 minutes. I saw one cylinder misfire count on cylinders 4, 9, and 10, throughout the entire test drive. That's it. Otherwise, I did not see the count go up at idle this evening.

We were approaching dusk, and since the car also has no headlight assemblies at the moment (I'm customizing a pair of Depo's for this car like I did for the 2000 S500), it was time to head back to the house. Next up will be to get the headlamps finished and installed.

The car will be getting another test drive tomorrow, with SDS on it and the fault counter up. Let's hope tomorrow's test gives good results.
 
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