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2010 MERC W164, 2012 BMW F01 M-Sport
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32 Posts
Thanks for the good info here. I am very nervous about buying any car without a warranty. I think this one has been babied. I am going to get it looked at Saturday by a local indy mechanic I found this week after some research. We will see.

Good to hear only a few trouble areas to look for instead of like with some cars you hear coil packs, tranny, oil leaks, motor mounts. I guess these cars are built pretty solid and it should be a good investment for my daily commute for the next 5 years or hopefully more.
 

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W140 S500
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9 Posts
So.....my real world situation. Do I buy a 2002 S600, 29K miles, clean car fax, beautiful for $18K or a 2004 S600 (bi-turbo, etc) 55K miles for $24K. I've read all of the posts and understand the issues....but I don't think the benefits of a post 2003 outweigh the benefits of a low mileage 2002. Thoughts?
 

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2003 S500 4Matic w/staggered AMG five-spokes; replaced 1976 450 SEL
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30 Posts
Well, Mr. Falk, I'll jump in here and lobby hard for the 2004 car for at least the following reasons:

- there are real benefits to getting a 2003+ car generally as discussed at length earlier in this thread
'
- the turbo V12 is not only more powerful but better sorted; the outstandingly resourceful and car-enthusiastic service manager at my superb dealer is a big fan of this engine, citing only the intercooler pump as a part which eventually needs replacement

- 55k miles is just getting started for a well-maintained S-Class car, so I don't think of that as "high mileage," while I'm concerned that a 10-year-old car with only 24k miles may have suffered for not being used and may start to show problems when it does start being energetically used

The choice is yours and I suspect others will weigh in, but you have my thoughts.
 

· Premium Member
1994 SL320 / 1987 300D / 2013 GL550
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1,689 Posts
Well, Mr. Falk, I'll jump in here and lobby hard for the 2004 car for at least the following reasons:

- there are real benefits to getting a 2003+ car generally as discussed at length earlier in this thread
'
- the turbo V12 is not only more powerful but better sorted; the outstandingly resourceful and car-enthusiastic service manager at my superb dealer is a big fan of this engine, citing only the intercooler pump as a part which eventually needs replacement

- 55k miles is just getting started for a well-maintained S-Class car, so I don't think of that as "high mileage," while I'm concerned that a 10-year-old car with only 24k miles may have suffered for not being used and may start to show problems when it does start being energetically used

The choice is yours and I suspect others will weigh in, but you have my thoughts.
+1 on this. 55k miles is barely getting started on breaking it in
 

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MB S600, Volvo XC70
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169 Posts
Well, Mr. Falk, I'll jump in here and lobby hard for the 2004 car for at least the following reasons:
+2, the TTV12 is good enough to make 2003 onward a different car.

See no difference between 29k and 55k miles. It is nothing, with proper maintenance, these cars can go 200k easily.

Buy 2003 up, no regret.

Howard
 

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S430
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25 Posts
Well this is little late but might as well get input from the pros.

Recently bought 2003 S430 with 156k miles. Everything in the car was working great except for airmatic. there are few broken pieces inside (very small pieces nothing i can't fix by screwdriver/replace by hand) cost me $6,000 (US) after the fix. i did read few earlier posts and seems 2003 was good year as far as reliability goes (compare to 2000-2002) engine is running great as well (recently did oil change) gives me good 20mpg avg in the city (least what the info shows).

Will like to get input if it was good deal or not. hoping to get least another 60k out of it and i'll be happy.
 

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2000 Mercedes-Benz S430
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3 Posts
mcbear,

You have pretty much hit the issues: Airmatic suspension and electronics. Both have improved in later years.

The '00 S500 had an upper strut mount design that tended to crack, then leak. If you looked at it carefully, you could see cracks begin to develop in the paint, in the circular depressions molded into the mount (where the air hose and valve enter the strut). Time to replace it; the "seal kit" replacement was actually a replacement of both the metal upper mounts and the seals. I experienced this problem on my '00, and it cost me about $550 to fix.

Problems with the lower strut seals are less frequent, but like any wear point (including seals in hydraulic struts in spring suspensions), they do fail eventually.

Any leak in the system can run the Airmatic pump excessively and cause premature failure, of course. But more frequently, the early Airmatic relay was a problem. If it failed "on" it would burn out the Airmatic pump - a $900 repair. If it failed "off" the Airmatic system would gradually lose pressure (faster of course if there was a leak). This problem was (and is) common. Forum contributor Oddemann has indicated recently that the relay is now made by another supplier (Hella, I think) and is more reliable than in the past. About $35 from a parts house, $85 from a dealer.

If the Airmatic system loses all inflation, the car settles to a point where the tires can damage the wheel wells if the car is driven in that condition; and damage the fenders if the wheels are turned. That's about a $6000 repair job but is of course caused by the owner neglecting to act on the early indications of failure.

How frequent are the failures? I have no idea of the actual numbers. However, I had to have the front struts replaced on my '05 (under warranty, thankfully - normally a $2600 repair) for lower seal leaks. I have standard wheels and OE tires (as I had on the '00). Two out of two ('00 and '05) with good roads and only about 12K per year of normal driving isn't great - but then the Airmatic system is what gives the W220 its marvelous ride and handling.

I would say that Airmatic problems are fairly common and are the weakest design point of the car in terms of reliability. They can be expensive to fix. However, knowing what to look for early, and fixing it promptly, minimizes the costs. If I were to buy a '00 today I would 1) check that the upper front strut mounts were of the newer design, and 2) replace the Airmatic relay. Maybe replacing the relay is like snapping fingers to keep the elephants away, but the relay is inexpensive and addresses what seems to be the most common point of failure. Last, I'd have an independent mechanic check the Airmatic system for leaks.

I am not at all certain that the majority of problems with Airmatic are caused by oversized rims and abusive driving. These are a likely contributing factor in many of the complaints one sees on the forums, but certainly not all. But I also note that the air (rear) suspension on two of my wife's Lincoln Town Cars also developed leaks requiring expensive repair, and she is a cautious driver. Air is thinner than hydraulic fluid. It will leak through a smaller gap. (Duh). If you have an air suspension system, it's a fact of life.

Problems with a particular engine pulley (harmonic balancer) separating were addressed by a recall. The oil pan could be shattered if the pulley let go; but if the car has had all of its recalls and program bulletins taken care of, you should be OK.

Electronics problems did occur frequently in early models. COMMAND failures were largely handled under warranty with newer units. Firmware updates handled many of the audio dropout issues (and many owners failed to recognize that a short audio dropout was an indication of a waiting voice mail message on the cell phone; nothing like reading the owners' manuals). Door control failures (loss of window controls, locks, etc.) were often caused by water intrusion when folks tinted the windows. Early COMAND nav units are now outdated (Duh) and are often compared unfairly against more modern nav systems. People are frustrated that their car doesn't allow them to switch to the latest and greatest cell phone every 6 months. Guess what? No car does. Some just make it easier, and the newer UHI and MHI systems in Mercedes do that. There is a cell phone upgrade path for the 2000 and newer models, but like everything Mercedes, it is expensive. We may have had to figure it out for ourselves, but it can be done - and it makes upgrading to the "latest and greatest" every six months much easier.

I agree fully on the lack of "need" to update the headlights, tail lights, etc. ad nauseam. I updated my tail lights because some idiot cracked one with a grocery cart (also placing a basketball-sized dent in the back fender). My '00 was a beautifully styled car that I could appreciate, and I still take pleasure in seeing one go by (as several do regularly in my neighborhood). I like white front side marker covers on a silver car, so did that - but at night they're yellow, just like the originals. My HID OE headlights on the '00 were Xenon on low beam - just like my clear-lensed Bi-Xenon projector lamps on the '05. 99% of the time you drive on low beam - so they were the same, from a practical standpoint. Upgrade just wasn't worth the cost, and the OE '00-'02 is good-looking in its own right.

I do like the slightly stiffer suspension on my '05 4-Matic, which I drive in its softest ride setting; the mid-stiffness selection on the '00 was similar. Used to the Audi sport suspension, I guess. The ability to raise the front suspension by 3/4 of an inch is useful mainly to avoid bumper scraping backing out of parking.

The earlier W220s have some strong advocates (Jayhawk being one). Yes, they were more problematic than the predecessor W140. It was revolutionary in its styling, suspension, and electronics, compared to its predecessor. I loved the W220 sports sedan feel on stiffer settings, vice the very "heavy" feel of the w140. But there were problems initially; some linger, but at lesser rates. And, as MB tightened quality requirements for its parts suppliers, many of the replacement parts have been just fine. Dealers were not adequately prepared for the new systems in many cases, and many are still not today. You are correct that poor dealer service compounded the frustrations of early malfunctions. They still do in some places. We have the same problem with our local Lincoln dealership, too. But many dealerships have caught up, and do just fine.

Rust was a problem for some - in '03 MB went to a double-sided zinc treatment on the body. There is a warranty that is greater than the original mileage for rust (if it is in an undamaged area; rust from an accident-damaged area is not covered).

The initial instrument cluster recall for the W220 and CLS was replaced by an extended 10-year warranty (from date of initial service). Instrument cluster failure stems mainly from one or more of three different component malfunctions, but they are all covered.

I cannot give you any statistics on failure rates. MB had a marvelous reputation for reliability and long-lasting cars prior to the '00 W220. The early W220 failed to deliver to that same standard. People who went from the earlier cars to the newer were very disappointed with reliability, according to JD Power, Consumer Reports, and many other surveys. However, MB did address the problems, and did improve quality control. '03 was the first year the cars were built from scratch with the improved quality components - but don't forget, the improved components were also used as they became available in the '02 production year, and as replacement parts (e.g., the metal mounts for the front struts) for older cars. The quality trend continued annually, with the '07 W221 winning JD Powers' top initial quality rating in the luxury class - beating Lexus, of course. The '05 and '06 models are also not far off that mark.

Look carefully at any '00 you buy. Look at its service history; if a part failed repeatedly, but was finally fixed and has been good for a year or more, it finally got either 1) the quality replacement part or 2) a dealer who had caught up with the changes - or both. Be sure recalls and program mods have been taken care of. Check CarFax for accidents and look at the car for the same (rust, broken engine mounts, missing trim, etc). Have an independent check the Airmatic system for leaks (easy to do with soapy spray at the seals and hose connections). Look at the car's general condition - was it cared for, or abused?

Last, since you're buying a dealer's wife's car, perhaps he will give you a deal on an extended warrantee. Not sure he can certify it with 78K, but there are other warranty packages. Very few, if any, will go past 100,000 miles - but some protection is better than none. Best to get one that covers electronics as well as suspension.

If you like it buy it - and know you're driving a modern classic.
Thanks for the very helpful comments.
 

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9 Posts
I am looking at a 2005 S600 with 59,000 miles. I am told this was the last year for this model. Is that accurate? Others say 2006.

Are there any particular reliability issues with the 12 vs the 8?

Is the 12 THAT much more expensive to maintain than the 8?

Thanks.
 

· W221 & Audio Moderator
2015 S550
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11,244 Posts

· Registered
2004 S500
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1 Posts
I read over some of the info about the older MB in this class. We are looking at a 2004 S500 with 72,500 miles. It appears that this is a fairly reliable year and model. It looked like they had fixed the big problems prior to this model. Having never owned a MB before, we have no idea what we are in for if we buy this car. It looked like KBB says it should cost somewhere around $9500 retail but I'm sure you here have better idea if that is accurate or not. Any info would be great.

Thanks in advance,

Steve
 

· W221 & Audio Moderator
2015 S550
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11,244 Posts
Welcome to our forum!

The last section of the W220 S-Class Encyclopedia, W220 S-CLASS ENCYCLOPEDIA - START HERE covers the topic of the different models fairly extensively; please read it over if you haven't already. As you read through the Encyclopedia, don't become alarmed; keep in mind that people use this forum principally to resolve problems that come up; and while certain problems do occur (such as with the Airmatic systems), very few people write in to say "I drove the car today - no problems at all." That's just human nature. A Benz is a luxury car, and like every luxury car, when it breaks it is expensive to repair. But hopefully you will find via the forum, and particularly the Encyclopedia, that there are often solutions that will save you a lot of money, keep the car running fine, and give you a great driving experience.

Also, we just provided some advice specific to the '04 model here - post #2 , http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w220-s-class/1960665-should-i-buy-s500.html - just disregard the info on the 4Matic (unless the car you are looking at has that All-Wheel Drive feature).
 

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14 Spyder RT Limited, 10 Ford F-150 Harley Davidson, 08 SL550, 03 S500 4-matic
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59 Posts
Welcome to our forum!

very few people write in to say "I drove the car today - no problems at all."
First of all thanks SKYLAW you are one of the greatest.

I have had three excellent road trips over three weeks (2 planned, and 1 unexpected) long excursions to Virgina Beach, The Poconos, and to New York City for a funeral, all starting from Maryland (Over 1500 miles) with no hickups or anything to happen to me yet (knock on wood). Started with 115,000 miles got 24.5 miles per gallon (Changed MAF and new air filters, thanks SKYLAW!). "Just smooth and noise-free, no-problems at all." (I'm one of those people).
 

· W221 & Audio Moderator
2015 S550
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11,244 Posts
If the car is on level ground, see that none of the sides are sagging - the car should appear level. If it is not on level ground, being low on the downhill side would be normal if it hasn't been started for a while.

When you first get in, even before you start it, you may hear the airmatic pump kick on while the car adjusts to your weight, and re-levels itself.

If the car hasn't been started for a long while (e.g., overnight), it is normal to see it come up a little. On level ground, the front might seem to raise then lower - that isn't what is actually happening. The front tends to raise first, then the back does. The car's leveling is what makes the front seem to go up, then down.

Those changes should be very small, and you would likely not even see them unless you look very closely.

Once in the car, use the dashboard buttons to raise it, then lower it back to normal. It should raise approximately 3/4 of an inch. You may hear the airmatic pump running while it raises (the pump is normally pretty quiet, and most of the time you will not hear it at all). The owner should be able to point out the two dashboard buttons that affect airmatic.

While driving, run the suspension through the stiffness adjustments (again, a dashboard button) - you should be able to feel them change.

When you exit the car, it is normal to hear a brief discharge of air - it is a pressure relief, adjusting for the change of weight.

You can easily see the front struts in the wheel well and check the external bellows for damage. The bellows serve mainly to keep dirt out (they do not provide the pressure for the system; that is done with an internal bladder).

Other than out and out troubleshooting, that's about it for the Airmatic.

You should not hear the airmatic pump running at stop lights, or after you have shut down. Its continuing to run could indicate a leak or a stuck solenoid that if not fixed promptly can ruin your pump.

There are some additional checks you can do in the buying advice (Quality, Comparisons, etc) in the W220 S-Class Encyclopedia sticky at W220 S-CLASS ENCYCLOPEDIA - START HERE

Don't let the Encyclopedia scare you. It deals with problems people have had in a car that has been on the road for nearly 14 years. No one has all of them - most have a few. But the solutions to them are there, as well as tips that can save you a LOT of money.
 

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2006 S500- "Betty" who unfortunately got side swiped and has been replace by Beatryx, a 2017 S550
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