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Discussion Starter #21

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Herman Cain died because he believed in some influential voices that offered opinions that were opposed to the medical experts and scientific data.
Those "voices" were within one parties leadership and a certain media outlet.
Bullshit Carl, you do not know what you are talking about. Nothing but assumptions that fit your own expectations. Do some research before you tell the rest of us what you know to be the "truth".

FWIW, Herman Cain was not against wearing masks, and typically did. He also promoted their use on his broadcasts. The rally to which you refer in Tulsa, did NOT have a statistically significant spike in cases for attendees. It is not currently known if any of those in Mr Cain's location had/have the virus. It is most certainly not known that that is WHERE he caught it. If you were to look at how the virus is transmitted, there is a time/concentration correlation. In other words, one must be in an area of sufficiently high concentration for a certain amount of time to successfully transmit. It is also not known (by me, at least) if Mr Cain was not wearing a mask for the entire time he was present at this rally. Additionally, Mr Cain flew on several commercial flights during this time period, any one of which had a higher likelihood of transmitting the virus due to the confined nature of air travel.

Lastly, non- N95 face masks are virtually useless in preventing a healthy person from getting the virus. I know that will set many off, but it is the truth. The main benefit of cloth/paper masks is if an infected person sneezes or coughs, thus arisolizing a sufficient amount of the virus, the mask will stop MOST of what would become airborne. A healthy person is not well protected, as the virus is small enough to easily pass through the mask or around it, as they are absolutely not an air-tight seal to one's face.

As far as believe in those "influential voices" really? What voices would those be? Come on Carl, there is no place for moralizing on this. Bitch your heart out on OT.
 

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Herman Cain was one of those who suggested folks not wear a mask - today he is dead:

June 20 - Attends Trump Rally in Tulsa without wearing a mask
June 29 - diagnosed with Corvid-19
July 1 - admitted to Hospital
July 30 - dead from Corvid-19
You left out a significant piece of the puzzle... where did he contract Covid-19. You implied it was at a Trump rally...is that a confirmed fact?
 

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Masks are uncomfortable and consequently people resist wearing them. From what I have been able to learn a mask is unlikely to protect the wearer from Covid 19. However a mask wearer is very unlikely to infect others as the mask filters infectious outgoing germs. Consequently we should all wear masks in public, not to protect ourselves but to protect others, who in turn by also wearing a mask, will protect us.
 

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Bottom line... 140K deaths in the US is 0.04% of the population. That's 4 one hundredths of 1%.
99.9% of those who catch Covid-19 will fully recovery or never show any symptoms.
2020 is an election year.
Nuff said.
 

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Normally we have about 10.000-20.000 flu-indicated death in Germany every year. It's probably an as reliable number then the number of the Corona-indicated deaths.
This year in the mid of April (end of flu-season) the RKI annouced only 411 (fourhundreteleven !) deaths caused by the “normal” flu.

So all the masking, hand-washing and distance keeping may have a deeper sense. The impact on the spread of Corona ist still on discussion, but looking on the spread of flu it's impressive.

In 5 years we all will know and understand a lot more about this new “little flu”. Up to that, everyone who kept his brain in good condition should stay calm and keep distance.
Safey first.

If you are worrying about your freedom, comfort and are bored of staing at home: In a lot countries around the world poeple can't leave there home without beeing shot or bombed and that since decades.
This are problems!

Take care
Martin
 

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Discussion Starter #27
I’m sitting here on the beach and other than lifeguards am the only person insight out of hundreds wearing a mask. Nobody gives a shit enough to wear a mask, and that’s why we keep spreading it.
 

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How can anyone dismiss 140k deaths as insignificant?
A much much smaller death count started a deadly war in 2001.
 

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I’m sitting here on the beach and other than lifeguards am the only person insight out of hundreds wearing a mask. Nobody gives a shit enough to wear a mask, and that’s why we keep spreading it.
If you are sitting outside, and 6 feet away from your neighbors you are at about a zero risk. If you are that worried, than go home. You can't use your fears or misunderstanding of "mask efficacy" to control the behavior of others. I'll be damned if I would go to the beach and wear a mask.

And Dugald, I don't think i have ever heard anyone say Covid deaths are insignificant. But it is damn near impossible to really assign a number to them. And the balance tilts hugely in favor of over-counting.

The best thing any of us can do is actually educate yourself. There is a growing library of sound data from around the world. Relying on the evening news is crap. If you are in an at-risk category, then take precautions. My health is dependant on ME, not on you.
 

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For perspective that might bring some rational thinking to the Covid table, try this. And read Dr. Osterholm's article in the link.
 

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Discussion Starter #31
Nobody knows exactly how it’s spread because it’s still too new, and nobody knows exactly how to stop it because it’s too new.

But people are NOT social distancing, and NOT following rules that have been set, like “masks are required on the 6 foot wide ramps to the beach”, and “masks are required on the boardwalk”. People are simple NOT following the rules that leaders are trying to set forth. I get it. People who follow rules are not cool. They are “square”, “dweebs”, you know, like the people that cool people think are “weak.”
 

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A good deal of the controversy over Corvid-19 and failure to unify this nation to combat it is due to paranoid conspiracy driven politics and leadership who do not feel our Medical Experts are giving credible information. Personally, I have high confidence in medical experts Dr. Fauci and Dr. Brix.
 

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Chief, seems to me @Jyuma declared 140000 deaths insignificant in post #25.
And I believe the balance of evidence actually points to undercounting.
Wishful thinking won't beat this disease.
 

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@dugald death numbers are neither significant nor insignificant... they are simply a fact. Noting that there have been 140K Covid-19 deaths was not an attempt to diminish the significance of the number but rather an attempt to keep it in perspective. Here's another number to help keep Covid-19 deaths in perspective... 7750 people die every day in the US from all causes. In the 6 months of Covid-19 there have been 1,400,000 deaths in the US from all causes. Tragic as everyone of them were for the families involved, as gut wrenching and devastating as they all are to someone, none were cause for shutting down the nations economy even though in many cases there are known ways to have prevented them.

I respect the opinions of others even at those times when I disagree with them. I recognize that I have but a certain point-of-view on Covid-19, one might assume that you have a different point of view, but to assume only one point-of-view to be accurate is to assume the other point-of-view to be inaccurate... which might not be a very productive way to resolve differences.
 

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In the good ol USA, I think the position you take on politics and Corvid-19 is what media you primarily watch.
Basically its do you watch and believe mostly Fox News, versus do you watch and believe mostly CNN, MSNBC, NBC, ABC, CBS. And, what media you watch has molded and is molding your opinions and perspectives. Its mind control and we are the puppets on a string being controlled by wealthy powerful people with a political agenda.
 

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@Jyuma, your commitment to civil discourse is laudable. Unfortunately, it’s not universal even in this forum of friends. In the wider world it’s rare indeed.
But, how can we have a rational discussion if we can’t agree on the facts?
 

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Discussion Starter #37
So we are about 4-5 months into this thing, and have over 150,000 deaths in the US. We could be at 450,000 or almost a half million deaths per year due to Covid if things don’t change. It will likely beat all accidents combined this year and maybe next year too.





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Chief, seems to me @Jyuma declared 140000 deaths insignificant in post #25.
And I believe the balance of evidence actually points to undercounting.
Wishful thinking won't beat this disease.
I do not embrace wishful thinking. But I do believe holistic thinking is appropriate- everything we learn must be taken in context for practical application. Covid-19 is no different, we need to live our lives in the midst of this. I'm not ready to crawl under a rock and cower in fear, nor do I wish to get it or pass it on. My 96 year old mom still lives independently, drives herself to the market, etc. Covid brought us all to a grinding halt. For mom, having no contact with my siblings and I for an extended time led to depression, a devastating condition for a nonagenarian. We came to the decision that it was more important to resume life as close to normal as we could, her depression being the greater threat. Context.

As to accurate assessment of the numbers of Covid deaths, it is absolutely over-estimated. There are numerous examples extant of this. In the US, if Covid is detected, it is listed as cause of death. A recent example was a motorcyclist killed in a crash. Covid was dx'ed after the crash, and listed as cause of death. There are multiple examples of duplicate counts. Too, our hospitals use ICD-10, a diagnostic coding system that assigns a specific code to every condition detected in a patient. These codes are assigned a monetary value so reimbursement to the medical provider reflects the presumed cost of care. When a patient dies, regardless of cause, if Covid is detected, it is listed thereby increasing the reimbursement and of course, now listed as cause of death. per order of the CDC. With monetary incentive, you can bet Covid is looked for in every death.

Beating this disease? There is no beating it. We will need to learn to live with it, without panic or fear as we have done with so many others that have become part of the environment.
 

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@Jyuma, your commitment to civil discourse is laudable. Unfortunately, it’s not universal even in this forum of friends. In the wider world it’s rare indeed.
But, how can we have a rational discussion if we can’t agree on the facts?
By accepting and acknowledging that at times facts are open to interpretation, as there is such a thing as correlation without connection. Politicians come equipped with an entire arsenal of correlation without connection phrases which they carry like so many arrows in their quiver, to be use to discredit their opponents or their opponents views.

One rather simplistic example of correlation without connect would be: 100% of people who eat carrots die. This is an absolute fact that cannot be refuted. It is also meaningless in that the carrots and the death are unrelated.

In simple matters like carrots and their role as an agent of death, it is easy for all to see the dichotomy... not so with highly complex issues. Thus facts can be, and routinely are, open to interpretation.
The way to have a rational discussion when facts are in dispute is to embrace the point of view of the person with which you disagree... this may not result in a change in your own view, but will go a long way toward your understanding the opposing view, even as you remain in civil disagreement.
 

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Masks: To a COVID particle, the air is like gelatin. It is a perfectly passive tracer. It goes where the air goes. This is how a mask protects others, by keeping your particles, if any, in your mask and out of the ambient indoor air. This is why it is safer out of doors where the breeze can whisk it away like cigarette smoke. Fonzi, you're on the beach, arrange your selves perpendicular to the prevailing wind, no one in your front, your cool mask or no.

"Some people are weatherwise, most people are otherwise." Ben F.
 
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