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1999 SLK230/ 2006 Passat/ 1995 Bronco (Prerunner)
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Discussion Starter #1
I stopped by the fabricator tonight to see about having some intakes like mine made. I will be having a prototype made in the next few weeks but have a couple questions for those possibly interested.

1. Would you like it in aluminum or steel? Aluminum is my choice but adds to cost by 50%.

2. Who would be interested if I can get the aluminum with filter and everything needed for around $200???

3. How important is having an actual dyno run with and without intake to decide on purchase? I don't plan on making a grip of cash off you guys so this would really be hard for me to do.

4. Whos actually interested? It helps with price depending on how many I have made.
 

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i'm in for an aluminum intake with filter. a dyno run would not be needed for me, not sure about others though. also are you going to make the intake to fit that vacuum hose instead of using the little breather filter?
 

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Unless they are cermaic coated both Aluminum and Mild Steel make wonderful heat sinks. They will contribute to an increase in intake temps (less dense air = less power).
 

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2002 SLK 32 AMG, bone stock. 1987 190E 2.3-16 valve (destroyed). 2005 E320 new toy.
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The smoother air flow into the blower intake will probably be negated by the warm (or hot) air drawn from the engine bay.
There is a lot of horsepower (heat) dumped into that bay by the radiator. It never cools down, even at speed. I hope you're planning on some sort of cool air intake box.
Point of interest: I'm looking in the range of 35,000 watts of energy going through the radiator at full power. It all doesn't go out the bottom of the car. Without a cool air box, a lot of that air is going into the blower, Think about it before you respond with some kind of nasty come back..... [:D]
 

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1999 SLK230 Sport
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Watts are a unit of power not energy.

Energy is measured in units of w·h

[:D]
 

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2002 SLK 32 AMG, bone stock. 1987 190E 2.3-16 valve (destroyed). 2005 E320 new toy.
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I'm aware of that, but watts give a better idea of what's involved here....

I think it mat be easier for many to relate the 1,000 watt hair dryer, and the heat it produces, and then imagine 35 of those pumping heat into the engine bay.
It's only an idea, and I could be wrong, but hey it's not my car.... [:p]
 

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I think you really are overreacting over the effect of putting a RAM air into an engine compartment.

from a dead stop, or on a dyno, yes it will make a negative effect. But on the highway or when rolling there is so much air circulating in the engine compartment that it doesn't really effect.

And this is data proven

check this article out.

http://dinancars.com/whitepapersFile.asp?ID=9

The air intake sensor is located under the hood of the E39 M5, absorbing heat produced by the engine. As you can see in Figure 1 below, on the road the sensor absorbs heat from the engine, artificially raising the reading the computer sees to 110° F. As soon as you accelerate at wide open throttle, the ram air coming into the engine flushes out the hot air and cools the sensor. By the time the engine reaches high rpm the temperature sensors are seeing 85°, very close the 80° F ambient temperature that was recorded during the test run.
Now people will maybe start to stop telling "you will loose 239847034 hp by putting a ram air". Maybe you'lll loose HP on the dyno, but I'm sure on the highway you're gaining.

And you can still shield that intake part of the engine.

Read the article before replying.. READ IT.

Etienne
 

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Etienne, I did read it, and there is NOTHING there that ...

refutes what I have said. In fact they back up what I and some others have said: Cooler air produces more power.
No matter how you cut it, cool air from in front of the car passes through the radiator and turns to hot air. That hot air gets heated even more by the exhaust manifold, exhaust pipe(s), and engine block. I'm having trouble understanding why you can't see that. Yes there is air flowing through the engine bay, that air cools the bay, and directs the heat from all the hot engine components out the bottom of the car. Without that air flow the radiator would have to be MUCH larger, and I doubt that, in a car, without the block being air cooled the engine would survive. Many boats even have their exhaust manifolds water cooled to keep the engine bay within reasonable limits because they don't have that air flow.
We will begin to eliminate these variables one by one so that you can see which aspects are the result of the intake air temp sensor and what portion is attributable to the engine running too warm.
The next dyno run was performed with only one change: the hood was opened!
As you can see in Figure 3B, with this simple change the power increased by approx. 35 hp to 370 hp.
The air intake sensor now absorbs a lot less heat from the engine (see Figure 9 - yellow line). With the hood open, the temperature reached 130° F, as compared to the 160° reading with the hood closed (see Figure 4). After the wide open run was completed, the temperature dropped to 120° F (Figure 9 - yellow line), compared to 148° F (Figure 9-blue line). However, this is still significantly warmer than the temperatures that were measured on the road.
The point that I'm trying to make here (and that Dinan seems back to me up on) is simple: Cooler intake air equals more power. None of the changes that Linh or Silverslk have made have provided cooler air to the engine intake system. Instead they suck hot air from behind the radiator, and Dinan says that's bad.
Frankly, I'm getting a little tired of this nonsense, if you want to run hot air into you engine and think you're helping the power output, knock your socks off. Do it, it don't hurt my feelings even a little bit. [:D]
 

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I know that colder air is better

I'm just saying that theintake will probably not get hotter air inthe engine when running, because the engine bay's air is flushed when rolling at speed.

Anyways, from reading many posts from you, I think it's useless to discuss about it because you always have the absolut truth.

Nobody denied the fact that hotter air is worse, it's just that when rolling the air isn't as hot as you think in the engine compartment.

If I had money I'dmonitor the intake temp before and after the intake mod and I'm sure at regular speed it would be the same.

Etienne
 

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MrSpace - 3/31/2005 5:34 PM

I think you really are overreacting over the effect of putting a RAM air into an engine compartment.

from a dead stop, or on a dyno, yes it will make a negative effect. But on the highway or when rolling there is so much air circulating in the engine compartment that it doesn't really effect.

And this is data proven

check this article out.

http://dinancars.com/whitepapersFile.asp?ID=9

The air intake sensor is located under the hood of the E39 M5, absorbing heat produced by the engine. As you can see in Figure 1 below, on the road the sensor absorbs heat from the engine, artificially raising the reading the computer sees to 110° F. As soon as you accelerate at wide open throttle, the ram air coming into the engine flushes out the hot air and cools the sensor. By the time the engine reaches high rpm the temperature sensors are seeing 85°, very close the 80° F ambient temperature that was recorded during the test run.
Now people will maybe start to stop telling "you will loose 239847034 hp by putting a ram air". Maybe you'lll loose HP on the dyno, but I'm sure on the highway you're gaining.

And you can still shield that intake part of the engine.

Read the article before replying.. READ IT.

Etienne
You have in now way put a RAM Air intake on your car. A ram air intake relies on the speed of the vehicle to slightly compress the air leading to more and cooler air entering the engine. Don't get sucked into the propoganda put out by marketing companies.

What you have done is installed an intake that may or may not have more surface area allowing more air to flow into the engine. You also may or may not have removed a a restriction to that air path. You may or may not have created or removed a resonance effect positively or negativly impacting flow.

To measure the IAT (intake air temp) you can use OBDII. Run before and after tests. You might also want to run a filtration test against the aftermarket filter and the stock filter. Many people have run filters that do a poor job filtering out dirt with out apparent negative effect. Of course I have not seen before or after dyno runs or compression tests.
 

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without knowing temps at all, ide just assume the stock air box set up wouldnt even compare to an open intake like that, ide even go as far to say that the increased airflow would be enough EVEN if the air temp was a bigger diffrence to be a decent power gain
 

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Silverslk, you did a good job, I really mean that !!!

Now let's go back to what Etienne has posted from the Dinan site:
The next dyno run was performed with only one change: the hood was opened!
As you can see in Figure 3B, with this simple change the power increased by approx 35 hp to 370 hp.
The air intake sensor now absorbs a lot less heat from the engine (see Figure 9 - yellow line). With the hood open, the temperature reached 130° F, as compared to the 160° reading with the hood closed (see Figure 4).
From what they have written there, we see an approximate 10% power increase with a 30 degree temperature drop in intake air. Using this as a basis (and not a good one I'll admit) we can expect something similar in the SLK. You indicated that the 70 to 110 yielded a 3 degree temperature increase (using worst case 78.3 start temp and 81.3 stop) that temperature increase is over what, let's say 4 or 5 seconds of pedal to the floor time? That 3 degree temperature increase COULD yield an overall 4 horsepower loss verses using ambient air. Do you see where I'm coming from here? We have no idea what kind of increase your induction pipe gives over stock (and I think that there actually may be some), but the hot bay air isn't helping you at all.
The reason that you didn't get much of a temperature increase in the bay at cruise is because the engine wasn't producing any power. A guess might be that your pulling maybe 50 to 60 horsepower at the very most, and that's a pure guess. Power output at a 70 mph cruise is likely much less then that.
Listen guy, I'm NOT trying to flame or fight with you. That was never my intention, but there are some things that should be questioned, and the way to come back is with reasoned response as you have this time.
As far as I'm concerned you did a good job with the testing, and it's been a valuable aid. How hard would it be to use the same set up and do some runs from 0 to 80 or maybe from 0 to 100. I think we could learn a lot from that.
 

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OK, but here's where I have a problem.........

If you're cruising, just laid back and enjoying the day, the engine isn't producing any power. Then some dude comes up along side and wants to test your SLK.
You start with a relatively cool engine, radiator and whatever because you only putting out 50 or so horsepower. Then you stand on the throttle, and start putting out close to four times as much power. Almost as soon as you do that the engine starts to produce excess heat through the normal in efficiencies, in other words the radiator gets hot, and the airflow through the bay doesn't improve proportionately. Things get hot very fast and you're drawing in hot air, and losing power, or more accurately, not gaining it as fast as you could be.
Any runs you could do from 0 to whatever would be helpful, and give us a better idea of what is really going on under the hood of these cars.
Here is what I think we need :
( 1 ) Outside air temp.
( 2 ) Run start temp.
( 3 ) Run finish temp.
( 4 ) Terminal speed.

Be careful, don't do anything that can get you in trouble, and most important, BE SAFE. We don't need you getting hurt, nothing here is worth that. One more thing, Thank you....... [:)]
 

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i'll hurt myself in the name of science lol!

Bruce R what do you reccomend for an intake system?
From what ive read on cars (im a noob compared to most of you) My personal oppinion tends to sway with Bruce. It really doesnt make sence to put hot air into your engine. Hence why they make things called "Cold Air Intake" ect....

--Deathy
 

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Well to be perfectly honest Silverslk's looks good with some slight changes.......

I think that that is what we're thrashing out right now.
He's got good airflow into the blower, which is a definite plus. I think that if there were some insulation on it as 430 suggested, and a "cold air" box could be made to enclose the air filter and draw in outside air, I think his would be the best set up I've seen. The air inlet on the radiator bulkhead needs to be opened some to lower the air velocity at that point, but that's about it. I think Silverslk also mentioned something about rust, but I don't see that as a problem. A quick zinc plating would take care of that for the life of the car. Chrome plating if you want some bling.....[;)] [:D]
 

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The intercooler should take a lot of the heat away going into the engine. After the air comes out of the supercharger it gets very warm anyway. How much more horsepower are we talking about with a open element? Not more than a few for sure if any.

If you guys want to get serious about horsepower gains try looking into the throttle body to get it to flow more air. It's a commom upgrade in the hot rod world.
 

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Billy Bob - 4/1/2005 2:33 PM

The intercooler should take a lot of the heat away going into the engine. After the air comes out of the supercharger it gets very warm anyway. How much more horsepower are we talking about with a open element? Not more than a few for sure if any.

If you guys want to get serious about horsepower gains try looking into the throttle body to get it to flow more air. It's a commom upgrade in the hot rod world.
If you mess with the TB makse sure you keep air velocity up or you will lose power.

Cone filters can either gain or lose power. It all depends on the efficiency of the stock system and how well designed the aftermarket unit is.
 

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basic question

I'm about to look into everything from air intake to TB oversize.

can we put the same MAS sensor in a bigger housing?

If my fuel is delivered by an upgraded FPR or bigger injectors, I think it would work... Or I could bore the TB but it's not enough.

Etienne
 

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The throttle body is just an idea. I have not done any testing on the 230 but I don't belive you would lose much air veolocity in a supercharged system like we have on the 230. I may be wrong about the 230 but I think it is worth looking into. Like I said before. Most cars get more horsepower with a bigger throttle body.

It's just like the cone air filter. The idea is to flow more air into the engine. I just think you need to get the whole intake to flow more air and not just the air filter.
 

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I have just been listening to all the good opinions on this application. It is desired to have cooler air induced into the engine. Lihn is right in saying that the small airbox is restrictive and does not allow enough air in to create additional power.
I might be inclined to think that the modified air intake system would work better if fresh air could be directed from the lower grill cavity and brought up to the cone via ducting. Additionally the louvering of the hood ( old hot rod trick) would reduce underhood air temperatures. Also wrapping the exhaust and intake systems to insulate would also help. Just my two cents[;)] I am off tomorrow and I plan to open the hood on mine to see just how much room is available. The thought of louvering the center of the hood has my curiosity on how serious the car would look. What do you all think? Thanks. FR///
 
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