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Discussion Starter #1
I must say that Hillary had a better showing. Obama seemed to get "lost in translation" alot when Hillary made a point on something. he didn't seem as confident as Hillary either. I think he is withering under the storm.


vote for Ron Paul.:D
 

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I thought Obama came across as more genuine, while HRC seemed to be some sort of stage production, with that frozen goofy smile of hers.
 

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He has never come off well against her in debates but most people have said it was a dead heat or she just scraped by and beat him but on average what I have read he did better than he usually does. She is just better at bullshitting, lying, scamming, flimflamming. call it what you want at least some around the country are starting to recognise it................
 

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Discussion Starter #4
most of Obama's stance was cliche' talk of what America "needs" to do, not what he plans to do to get it done. I thought they both did a bit of showboating but at least Hillary has a hint of what it takes. I think Dems are not sure if they want a older white woman as their candidate and Obama just "feels" better in their minds. Democrats have always been "emotional" voters and not "issue based" voters. they don't really look at who can do the job, but more or less who they would "like" to have the job. not really a good way to vote.
 

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The line where she went after him on his use of another person's speech was the most telling moment.

In law school I understand you are taught never to ask a question unless you know the answer. In debate you don't ask a question, or make a point without knowing the potential counter responses.

When she said "Lifting whole passages from someone else's speeches is not change you can believe in, it's change you can Xerox.", that should have been a solid knockout IF THEY HAD VETTED THE INFORMATION. Apparently they had not.

From Obama, "The notion that I had plagiarized from somebody who was one of my national co-chairs who gave me the line and suggested that I use it, I think, is silly, and you know, this is where we start getting into silly season, in politics, and I think people start getting discouraged about it."

The booing from the audience that came from her remarks and inability to move on showed a complete lack of judgment. It was very similar to the Iowa hit from John Edwards.
 

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The line where she went after him on his use of another person's speech was the most telling moment.
Does this line from Hillary sound familiar?

Valedictory in Texas

Asked to describe "the moment that tested you the most," Clinton began: "Well, I think everybody here knows I've lived through some crises and some challenging moments in my life."

The crowd applauded, enthusiastically.

Then she continued.

"But people often ask me, ‘How do you do it?' You know, ‘How do you keep going?' And I just have to shake my head in wonderment, because with all of the challenges that I've had, they are nothing compared to what I see happening in the lives of Americans every single day."
Didn't Bill say the same thing back in the 90's? Nice to have that one on the shelf. So handy.
 

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I've posted before that on issues there is not whit of difference between them, but both seemed to get their steam up over health insurance. Maybe if we had an hour on that topic the debate would have been more fun to watch. The moderators seemed adrift at times.
 

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Well it is true, HRC does have more experience, at flim flam, lying and fooling her supporters. Maybe she should follow Fred Thompson and go into acting, she can turn on the tears whenever necessary and she learns her lines quickly.
 

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I don't think people realize that she's still married to Bill. Electing her would be like re-electing him. You don't really think he's going to be content decorating Christmas trees and picking china patterns, do you? :confused:
 

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Sarah Silverman [about her half black boyfriend]

"I gave him a compliment! All right, I told him he probably would've made, like, a really expensive slave in the, like, in the olden-timey days.

 

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I've posted before that on issues there is not whit of difference between them, but both seemed to get their steam up over health insurance. Maybe if we had an hour on that topic the debate would have been more fun to watch. The moderators seemed adrift at times.
There are some vital differences in their healthcare plans. And from the fireworks today regarding the Obama Ad that calls her on her "no volunteer" healthcare plan [whatever that is] it looks like next Tuesday's debate will be the Healthcare debate you are looking for.

Interestingly I imagine it is the one John Edwards is looking at has he decides which horse to drop his money/delegates on.
 

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I don't think people realize that she's still married to Bill. Electing her would be like re-electing him. You don't really think he's going to be content decorating Christmas trees and picking china patterns, do you? :confused:
There have been enough "our" and "we're" to make me decide that my choice will either be Obama OR a third party if Bloomberg moves in. I don't think he will if Obama wins the Dem nod but I think he will if Hillary does.
 

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There are some vital differences in their healthcare plans. And from the fireworks today regarding the Obama Ad that calls her on her "no volunteer" healthcare plan [whatever that is] it looks like next Tuesday's debate will be the Healthcare debate you are looking for.

Interestingly I imagine it is the one John Edwards is looking at has he decides which horse to drop his money/delegates on.
^ True dat. Their positions on the Iraq invasion/occupation also differ substantially.

Hillary's healthcare plan is to be mandatory, with wage garnishment for non-conformers.
 

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^ True dat. Their positions on the Iraq invasion/occupation also differ substantially.

Hillary's healthcare plan is to be mandatory, with wage garnishment for non-conformers.
I think that was the part on the flyer Obama sent out that sent her apoplectic today. Somehow she is trying to back away from that "mandatory" proposal she pushed earlier.

My guess is that if he wants to take her out Tuesday night, that is the knife she will have provided him.

Funny thing about mandatory. People certainly like plenty of options, that is usually NOT one of them.
 

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Obama on Rezko deal: It was a mistake

Obama on Rezko deal: It was a mistake

November 5, 2006
BY DAVE MCKINNEY AND CHRIS FUSCO Staff Reporters Contributing: Mark Brown
U.S. Sen. Barack Obama expressed regret late Friday for his 2005 land purchase from now-indicted political fundraiser Antoin "Tony" Rezko in a deal that enlarged the senator's yard.

"I consider this a mistake on my part and I regret it," Obama told the Chicago Sun-Times in an exclusive and revealing question-and-answer exchange about the transaction.

In June 2005, Obama and Rezko purchased adjoining parcels in Kenwood. The state's junior senator paid $1.65 million for a Georgian revival mansion, while Rezko paid $625,000 for the adjacent, undeveloped lot. Both closed on their properties on the same day.

Last January, aiming to increase the size of his sideyard, Obama paid Rezko $104,500 for a strip of his land.
The transaction occurred at a time when it was widely known Tony Rezko was under investigation by U.S. Attorney Patrick Fitzgerald and as other Illinois politicians befriended by Rezko distanced themselves from him.

In the Sun-Times interview, Obama acknowledged approaching Rezko about the two properties being up for sale and that Rezko developed an immediate interest. Obama did not explain why he reached out to Rezko given the developer's growing problems.

Last month, Rezko was indicted for his role in an alleged pay-to-play scheme designed to fatten Gov. Blagojevich's political fund. Rezko also was accused of bilking a creditor.

"With respect to the purchase of my home, I am confident that everything was handled ethically and above board. But I regret that while I tried to pay close attention to the specific requirements of ethical conduct, I misgauged the appearance presented by my purchase of the additional land from Mr. Rezko," Obama said.

"It was simply not good enough that I paid above the appraised value for the strip of land that he sold me. It was a mistake to have been engaged with him at all in this or any other personal business dealing that would allow him, or anyone else, to believe that he had done me a favor," the senator said.

The land deal came up in a court hearing Friday that delved into Rezko's finances. Obama said he has not been approached by federal prosecutors about the transaction nor has plans to go to them about it.

Obama and Rezko have been friends since 1990, and Obama said the Wilmette businessman raised as much as $60,000 for him during his political career. After Rezko's indictment, Obama donated $11,500 to charity--a total that represents what Rezko contributed to the senator's federal campaign fund.

After the controversy surfaced on Wednesday, the Sun-Times presented Obama's office with a lengthy set of questions about the land deal, Obama's relationship with Rezko and the story's impact on a potential 2008 bid for the White House.

Here are his responses:

Q: Senator, when did you first meet Tony Rezko? How did you become friends? How often would you meet with him, and when did you last speak with him?


A: I had attracted some media attention when I was elected the first black President of the Harvard Law Review. And while I was in law school, David Brint, who was a development partner with Tony Rezko contacted me and asked whether I would be interested in being a developer. Ultimately, after discussions in which I met Mr. Rezko, I said no.

I have probably had lunch with Rezko once or twice a year and our spouses may have gotten together on two to four occasions in the time that I have known him. I last spoke with Tony Rezko more than six months ago.

Q:. Have you or your wife participated in any other transactions of any kind with Rezko or companies he owns? Have you or your wife ever done any legal work ever for Rezko or his companies?

A: No.

Q: Has Rezko ever given you or your family members gifts of any kind and, if so, what were they?

A: No.

Q: The seller of your house appears to be a doctor at the University of Chicago . Do you or your wife know him? If so, did either of you ever talk to him about subdividing the property? If you ever did discuss the property with him, when were those conversations?

A: We did not know him personally, though my wife worked in the same University hospital. The property was subdivided and two lots were separately listed when we first learned of it. We did not discuss the property with the owners; the sale was negotiated for us by our agent.

Q: Did you approach Rezko or his wife about the property, or did they approach you?

A: To the best of my recollection, I told him about the property, and he developed an interest, knowing both the location and, as I recall, the developer who had previously purchased it.

Q: Who was your Realtor? Did this Realtor also represent Rita Rezko?

A: Miriam Zeltzerman, who had also represented me in the purchase of my prior property, a condominium, in Hyde Park. She did not represent Rita Rezko.

Q: How do you explain the fact your family purchased your home the same day as Rita Rezko bought the property adjacent to yours? Was this a coordinated purchase?

A: The sellers required the closing of both properties at the same time. As they were moving out of town, they wished to conclude the sale of both properties simultaneously. The lot was purchased first; with the purchase of the house on the adjacent lot, the closings could proceed and did, on the same day, pursuant to the condition set by the sellers.

Q: Why is it that you were able to buy your parcel for $300,000 less than the asking price, and Rita Rezko paid full price? Who negotiated this end of the deal? Did whoever negotiated it have any contact with Rita and Tony Rezko or their Realtor or lawyer?

A: Our agent negotiated only with the seller's agent. As we understood it, the house had been listed for some time, for months, and our offer was one of two and, as we understood it, it was the best offer. The original listed price was too high for the market at the time, and we understood that the sellers, who were anxious to move, were prepared to sell the house for what they paid for it, which is what they did.

We were not involved in the Rezko negotiation of the price for the adjacent lot. It was our understanding that the owners had received, from another buyer, an offer for $625,000 and that therefore the Rezkos could not have offered or purchased that lot for less.

Q: Why did you put the property in a trust?

A: I was advised that a trust holding would afford me some privacy, which was important to me as I would be commuting from Washington to Chicago and my family would spend some part of most weeks without me.

Q: A Nov. 21, 1999, Chicago Tribune story indicates the house you bought "sits on a quarter-acre lot and will share a driveway and entrance gate with a home next door that has not yet been built." Is this shared driveway still in the mix? Will this require further negotiations with the Rezkos?

A: The driveway is not shared with the adjacent owner. But the resident in the carriage house in the back does have an easement over it.

Q: Does it display a lack of judgment on your part to be engaging in real estate deals with Tony Rezko at a point his connections to state government had been reported to be under federal investigation?

A: I've always held myself to the highest ethical standards. During the ten years I have been in public office, I believe I have met those standards and I know that is what people expect of me. I have also understood the importance of appearances.

With respect to the purchase of my home, I am confident that everything was handled ethically and above board.

But I regret that while I tried to pay close attention to the specific requirements of ethical conduct, I misgauged the appearance presented by my purchase of the additional land from Mr. Rezko. It was simply not good enough that I paid above the appraised value for the strip of land that he sold me. It was a mistake to have been engaged with him at all in this or any other personal business dealing that would allow him, or anyone else, to believe that he had done me a favor. For that reason, I consider this a mistake on my part and I regret it.

Throughout my life, I have put faith in confronting experiences honestly and learning from them. And that is what I will do with this experience as well.

Q: Why did you not publicly disclose the transaction after Rezko got indicted?

A: At the time, it didn't strike me as relevant. I did however donate campaign contributions from Rezko to charity.

Q: Have you been interviewed by federal investigators about this transaction or about your relationship with Rezko? If not, do you intend to approach them?

A: I have not been interviewed by federal investigators. I have no reason to approach them.

Q: Did Rezko or his companies ever solicit your support on any matter involving state or federal government? Did Al Johnson, who was trying to get a casino license along with Tony Rezko, or Rezko himself ever discuss casino matters with you?

A: No, I have never been asked to do anything to advance his business interests. In 1999, when I was a State Senator, I opposed legislation to bring a casino to Rosemont and allow casino gambling at docked riverboats which news reports said Al Johnson and Tony Rezko were interested in being part of. I never discussed a casino license with either of them. I was a vocal opponent of the legislation. (http://www.ilga.gov/legislation/votehistory/srollcalls91/pdf/910SB1017_05251999_001000C.PDF)

Q: Has this disclosure about your relationship with Rezko changed your thoughts about a White House run?

A: No. As I have said, how I can best serve is something I will think about after the 2006 election next Tuesday.

Q: Did Rezko ever discuss with you his dealings with Stuart Levine, Christopher Kelly or William Cellini or the role he was playing in shaping Gov. Blagojevich's administration?

A: No.

Q: Are the Obamas the only beneficiaries of the land trust?

A: Yes.

Q: Are you aware of any efforts by previous owners to develop what is now the Rezko lot, possibly as townhomes?

A: I was not aware of any prior effort by the seller to develop the property, but always understood the other lot was to be developed upon sale.

Q: Did Rezko have an appraisal performed for the 10-foot strip?

A: I had an appraisal conducted by Howard B. Richter & Associates on November 21, 2005.

Q: Was there a negotiation? Did he have an asking price, or did he just say, whatever you think is fair?

A: I proposed to pay on the basis of proportionality. Since the strip composed one-sixth of the entire lot, I would pay one-sixth of the purchase price of the lot. I offered this to Mr. Rezko and he accepted it.

Q: How many fundraisers has Mr. Rezko hosted for you? Were these all in his home? How much would you estimate he has raised for your campaigns?

A: He hosted one event at his home in 2003 for my U.S. Senate campaign. He participated as a member of a host committee for several other events. My best estimate was that he raised somewhere between $50,000 and $60,000.
 

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Obama on Rezko deal: It was a mistake

November 5, 2006
BY DAVE MCKINNEY AND CHRIS FUSCO Staff Reporters Contributing: Mark Brown
U.S. Sen. Barack Obama expressed regret late Friday for his 2005 land purchase from now-indicted political fundraiser Antoin "Tony" Rezko in a deal that enlarged the senator's yard.
Dude, you need to get up to speed, we covered this six months ago and again last week.
 
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