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NY-LA Cannonball in a CDI/Bluetec?

2K views 22 replies 7 participants last post by  Kajtek1 
#1 ·
To those that follow this type of thing, you may have heard that the New York to Los Angeles Cannonball race was beat again recently, 27.5 hours to travel 2800 miles with an average speed of 103MPH (This INCLUDES stops) and a top speed of 193MPH. They drove a modified 2015 E63 AMG. This actually makes 2 consecutive cannonball records (the last set in 2013 with a cl55 amg) set with AMG Mercedes!

It got me wondering, would a heavily modified post facelift W211 diesel be the perfect car for this race? Om642 V6 over the i6 Om648 due to the 7 speed you get with the om642.
remove all the emissions crap, stage three tune, beefier suspension, higher geared rear diff for a higher top speed...... in theory it sounds like a perfect combination with the fuel efficiency/power ratio of the diesel.


I don't think i've ever heard of a single cannonball race won with a diesel.
 
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#2 ·
We have long topic about it on mbenzworld.
The E63 had fuel cell, giving it about 60 gallons fuel capacity, so it took only 4 fill ups for the trip. They had spotters blocking gas stations for them, waiting with 2 nozzles in hand when they pull.
That is why they average 5 minutes stops. Meaning fueling time played very small role in the stunt, while no diesel will reach 700 hp they had.
One of the member brought good point.
How do you feel about 60 gallons of fuel traveling at 160 mph between 70 mph traffic?
Now would we be talking real life travel, in real cars, no AMG will beat my 4-banger E250 Bluetec with its 7-800 miles range on the tank when it comes to cross-country travel.
 
#3 ·
How much does horsepower really mean though when it comes to sustained high speed long distance travel? An om642 can reach 400hp-600ft/lbs with a turbo/intercooler upgrade and a tune. My stock 2005 CDI with the speed limiter removed can hit 150mph at redline, so imagine a higher gear ratio and nearly double the power.....

I know it's not the IDEAL platform for breaking record obviously, it's more of a "it can be done" type of accomplishment.
 
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#4 ·
Bear in mind that speed v/s hp requirement is not linear and when I was "brushing the governor" in W211 E320, it would reach 130 mph on 4th gear and did not want to upshift to 5th as the hp/torque curve was giving it too little.
Than how long your cdi will take to accelerate 130-150 mph?
I drove on autobahns, where 130 mph puts you in slow lane. It really takes well over 300 hp to drive 150 mph and still have some play for passing.
 
#5 ·
Yeah the speed to power ratio is DEFINITELY not linear. Higher air resistance and rolling resistance due to downforce at higher speeds means much higher power requirements. In the CDI, up to about 110 has plenty of power left over for passing, but past that point you can really feel the exponential increase in load on the engine. Up to 130 the engine still feels like it's in a "comfy" rev range, but after that..... Not so much. The engine is overfueling and puking black smoke to compensate for the power requirements. I dont even think 150 is possible on a slightly worn high pressure fuel pump, this speed test was done after getting a fresh reman HPFP. High end power with the new pump in sport mode is a night and day difference. The car continues to pull harder and harder all the way up to the rev limiter with the new pump, where before power would kind of taper off after 3900 rpm's with the old pump.

Long story short, a 400HP diesel car with 600ft/lbs of torque and a high gear ratio I think could easily cruise at 180 mph
 
#7 · (Edited)
Long story short, a 400HP diesel car with 600ft/lbs of torque and a high gear ratio I think could easily cruise at 180 mph
The truth is that we have no way to know it.
But when you listen to cannonballers interviews on youtube - one fill up was done in Colorado, who due to higher elevations sell premium with 2 octanes less than average.
The E63 stop performing short time after and they pulled over feeling like the engine was ready to die.
Ignition restart brought the car back to life and only after contacting the experts, the conclusion was that the 2 octane less was enough for engine system to notice extensive pinging and following advice was to "take it easy" and keep it below 170 mph.
So even slightly lower performance on 700 hp engine was screwing the driving.
 
#6 ·
I came in first & second. Last year from West Palm Beach to College Park MD. It was with friends. My brother and I drove my E250s BlueTec. Less than seven minutes to go, cruising around the DC Capitol at 2:25 am I hit a fucking pothole the size of Plymouth Rock. I pulled over and assessed a bent rim. Thankfully my non run flats held. We took 2nd by 1min 15sec. ( Total 12hrs 6min).

No stops, arrests, or impounding occurred. WAZE & CB were allowed. Took 1st between Chicago & Pikes Peak (Base) in ‘17.

At 80+ mph we still got over 720 miles on a tank.


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#8 ·
I've seen a YouTube video on that run. 193 mph is pretty fast and the number of people they had supporting the run was amazing. Especially the guy on the motorcycle that took them to the finish line in the left hand lane.. I have long since thought the cdi could make the run without having to stop for fuel. You could put a veggie cell in the trunk for around 50 gallons and you could make it without having to stop for fuel. You would have to figure out how to go without using the bathroom but the machine could make it without stopping. Hospitals use catchers for #1 human waste by putting on a device that looks like a condom. You could then set the cruise at 90 to 100 without worrying too much about the cops. That would return a competitive time without all of the high speed shenanigans.
The spotters would be useful especially that motorcycle guy at the end or maybe you time it so you hit Redondo beach at like 4 in the morning.

Bottom line a diesel powered vehicle could really get close to that time with a small amount of mods.. One thing's for sure you won't see anyone surpassing that record driving a Tesla lol.. Buuuuut if you towed a trailer with a generator on board you might be able to recharge while running..
 
#11 · (Edited)
They use them in F1 and with good results. When gasoline engines have slow down in technology and are probably close to max efficiency, diesels of last decade went long way.
Now 2l diesel in street car delivers over 200 hp, and 80 mpg and when smog controls put some restrictions on high-performance, the big potential is still there.
Than the cannonball run in gasser made sense only becouse spotters were blocking whole lane at gas stations for the guys to pull in. In real life any AMG will lose site of CDI on the 2nd fill up.
I will not even brush that cdi is like my android 4.4. .... dinosaur.
 
#10 ·
I think it could come pretty darn close, actually, assuming that a CDI could physically withstand the tune without the heads lifting. Consider that the W220 S600 TT is known, with speed limiter turned off, to hit 190 mph. This car's engine has 500 HP and 600 lb-ft, and it uses the 722.6 five-speed transmission. A better basis, I think, for trying it with a CDI, would be the 4.0L OM628-family V-8 version of the Diesel. I know, sadly it never came to the United States. That engine, properly hopped up, might just do it.
 
#16 ·
I would agree actually. That 335d is an amazing car, and has a better power to weight ratio than the CDI.
They can cruise stock at 160mph on the Autobahn.
 
#18 ·
Black smoke racing guys have 600+ HP and over 1000Lb-ft of torque on a heavily modified 648, so it's definitely doable. They have bigger injectors, bigger pump, bigger turbo, and swapped out a set of special forged pistons.

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#19 · (Edited)
Really? Now that is interesting. Do we have any data on how long those engines last? Would they survive an endurance race like the Cannonball Run?

One mistake that I think a lot of Diesel tuners make is the black smoke. I am a disciple of Gale Banks when it comes to, "power you can see, but not feel." The Banks Sidewinder Truck does not produce hardly any black smoke. It towed its own equipment trailer from California to the Bonneville Salt Flats. It also gets over 23 mpg on the highway, which for a 700 HP, trailer-towing pickup truck and its brick-like aerodynamics, is stellar.
 
#20 ·
I'm totally with you and banks, Black smoke means you're not getting complete combustion. It's literally extra unburned fuel coming out the tail pipe. Those ******** you see driving around in lifted pickup trucks rolling coal have made no effort to make sure their engine is tuned properly. They're just dumping more fuel in with not enough air.

While I do think the 648 could do an inderance race with 500 HP, There's no reason a cannonball diesel needs over 700-800 lb/ft of torque. While HP does typically equate to top speed, that's not the case with a diesel if you can gear up the rear end for speed rather than acceleration.

A stage 4 tune on a 2009-2011 335D for instance, is basically just a new fuel pump, larger turbos and intercooler (and chip tune obviously), Produces 428 HP and 650 Ft/lbs of torque at the WHEELS.

You can't tell me that car wouldn't be competitive with a geared up rear end.

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#21 ·
Yeah, I'd have to agree. And proper tune is essential. You're right about Diesel-levels of torque not being as necessary. However, by nature, the Diesel engine has that torque, so we're going to have it. We can bring it down a bit, like Banks has done with their Sidewinder Duramax, or Audi did with their R10's V10 and V12 Diesels, but it's still going to be mighty torquey. So, if the OM648 ends up with 500 HP, that means it's probably going to have at least 600 lb-ft, no matter what we do to it, and probably closer to 700 lb-ft. That torque, even if not an advantage, certainly wouldn't be a hindrance with a geared-up rear end like you're describing.

We're back to the basic question, though: can the OM648 physically withstand such levels of power without the head lifting up, even with head studs, and do so reliably enough for an endurance race? I know it's built pretty durably, but is it that durable?
 
#22 ·
Well the blacksmoke guys use their car for drifting, not for long distance racing.

Interesting to note however, they didn't do anything to the upper end of their engine.... They didn't change the head bolts or anything.

They did as I said change the rods and bearing cap studs though for the crank and rods, no idea if that's actually necessary though.

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#23 · (Edited)
Would be interesting to find a chart of HP requirement for the speed.
My 174 HP E300DT was cruising at 130 mph just fine. Not too much power for passing, but we are talking cruising.
So my assumption is that factory OM642, who for some models left factory with 250 HP would cruise at 170 mph just fine.
Meaning you could add tanks to make 60 gallons fill like the car in topic and make it cross country on only 1 fillup
That's only talking about what we poor USA owners can get on local market, when MB, VW, BMW, Peugeot, Citroen, Fiat make whole variety of good diesels.
 
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