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1977 300D, 1980 450SL, Genuine Buddy 125cc Scooter
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252 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Whats the deal with the nozzle replacement in these cars. Ive watched all the videos I can find, read alot of posts here and others, and dont really see the point. The car sounds the same as before..You in particular Diesel Giant.

When I was first introduced to these cars a few years ago I did the dieesel purge suggested by Mercede^[email protected]$e. It worked very well, I used 2 cans. I use Lucas at every fill up in every fossil fuel powered engine I own.

Back to my 300d. Since Ive owned this car Ive used Diesel Clean and Lucas at every fillup. I alternate between the 2, and on the 3rd fill up I use nothing just in case I have too much detergent build up (but I dont really have a reason, just my own fuzzy logic). Point here is I try to keep the fuel system clean.

The car has somewhere around 220-240K miles. It runs far better than it did when I bought it 2 years ago. Starts right up(Remember it gets cold here too, even if its for only a week) with out waiting for the glow plugs, or giving it any gas to keep it running at ide start. It nails, pings at idle and smokes a bit too. Ive never messed with the valves. I dont feel like buying the funny wrenches. I keep meaning to go to harbor freight and buying cheap ones to bend for this use, but I digress. I will one of these days.

Soon Ill take out my injectors, soak them in heavy duty carb cleaner (you know the stuff, comes in a paint can with the basket that will fit a 4bbl). Then Ill lap them smooth where needed, bring them to a mercedes guy that owns the tool to test the spray pattern, and when thats good Ill get new heat shields and install. Maybe Ill even make a video!

Who knows maybe after cleaning them out and inspecting them they could be worn, I dont know.

In my opinion carbon build up and the valves being out of whack is a far more likely culprit that a hardened steel cylinder that is lubricated at all times wearing out and causing symptoms of other things that should be checked first before throwing $250 at something after watching videos on your computer.

Im young, just past 30, dont know everything, but I wasnt born yesterday.

Dont mean to be cynical, but Im tired of these "mechanics" exploiting people who arent familiar with engines, systems, cars, tools, and troubleshooting common problems etc and are out to make a buck giving you a cute little book and a bag of parts and access to his youtube videos. Ive learned more from this forum and many others than I ever did from them. Like I said I dont know everything and Id like to know if Im wrong, dont flame, just give the facts. Either way ill find out when i take mine apart.

Adios Amigos!
 

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Registered
1985 Euro 300TD Turbo, 1983 Euro 300TD turbo, 1979 Euro 240TD and 1981 300D converted to euro.
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2,700 Posts
Ive seen cars with worse problems then yours that just needed a valve adjust and motor oil flush.

As far as your outlook on injectors you are currently doing exactly what you should if you had perfect or near perfect injectors. However regardless of if your own car actually needs injectors or not you might think about something. There are huge chunks out of these cars lives where they were treated like trash and had tons of different things put in them as fuel.

Be it accident or not the crap that gets put into the injection pump gets pushed at great PSI and over all these years you think that tiny edge of metal will be and act the same?

I could also be wrong, but from what i have personally seen about 2 out of 5 w123 diesels need new injector tips and or other injector parts i.e.... injection pumps and or injector bodies.

I do not push or recommend anything i have not seen first hand.

The forums are great info, but the more you play with your car the more you will learn everyday. I swear sometimes these w123s arent cars they are old people with young souls ;)


So in closing man adjust your valves do a motor flush at next oil change with lubro-moly motor flush or gunk motor flush, use delo 400 chevron motor oil and injection timing.

You will have a beast when you are done so if you like how it runs now just wait.

If however you still have the same problems then you are one or the two out of 5 w123 diesels that need injectors or more.



BTW I have noticed valve adjustment time periods to be dropping in the past year or two so dont know if it has to do with fuel or something else maybe nothing. So far about 6 months to 1 year is the adjustment intervals i have been seening :-(
 

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2013 MINI Copper S Clubman, '84 300CD-weekend car
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10,152 Posts
Times two on the valve adjustment.

Check the pop pressure and spray pattern on the injectors as you've explained.
 

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Registered
1977 300D, 1980 450SL, Genuine Buddy 125cc Scooter
Joined
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252 Posts
Discussion Starter #4
That's what I'm talking about...information! Thank you!!! I agree, who know what happened to it from 1977-2010. I do have the majority of the service records. I'm the 3rd owner. PO was an airline pilot based in vegas, so it sat at the airport and baked in the sun for 20+ years and was only driven when he was there. Its not a pretty car, but runs good.

Sent from my SPH-D700 using AutoGuide.Com Free App
 

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Registered
1984 300D
Joined
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5,070 Posts
Whats the deal with the nozzle replacement in these cars. Ive watched all the videos I can find, read alot of posts here and others, and dont really see the point. The car sounds the same as before..You in particular Diesel Giant.

When I was first introduced to these cars a few years ago I did the dieesel purge suggested by Mercede^[email protected]$e. It worked very well, I used 2 cans. I use Lucas at every fill up in every fossil fuel powered engine I own.

Back to my 300d. Since Ive owned this car Ive used Diesel Clean and Lucas at every fillup. I alternate between the 2, and on the 3rd fill up I use nothing just in case I have too much detergent build up (but I dont really have a reason, just my own fuzzy logic). Point here is I try to keep the fuel system clean.

The car has somewhere around 220-240K miles. It runs far better than it did when I bought it 2 years ago. Starts right up(Remember it gets cold here too, even if its for only a week) with out waiting for the glow plugs, or giving it any gas to keep it running at ide start. It nails, pings at idle and smokes a bit too. Ive never messed with the valves. I dont feel like buying the funny wrenches. I keep meaning to go to harbor freight and buying cheap ones to bend for this use, but I digress. I will one of these days.

Soon Ill take out my injectors, soak them in heavy duty carb cleaner (you know the stuff, comes in a paint can with the basket that will fit a 4bbl). Then Ill lap them smooth where needed, bring them to a mercedes guy that owns the tool to test the spray pattern, and when thats good Ill get new heat shields and install. Maybe Ill even make a video!

Who knows maybe after cleaning them out and inspecting them they could be worn, I dont know.

In my opinion carbon build up and the valves being out of whack is a far more likely culprit that a hardened steel cylinder that is lubricated at all times wearing out and causing symptoms of other things that should be checked first before throwing $250 at something after watching videos on your computer.

Im young, just past 30, dont know everything, but I wasnt born yesterday.

Dont mean to be cynical, but Im tired of these "mechanics" exploiting people who arent familiar with engines, systems, cars, tools, and troubleshooting common problems etc and are out to make a buck giving you a cute little book and a bag of parts and access to his youtube videos. Ive learned more from this forum and many others than I ever did from them. Like I said I dont know everything and Id like to know if Im wrong, dont flame, just give the facts. Either way ill find out when i take mine apart.

Adios Amigos!
The Funny Bent wrenches are made to go over the Fuel Injection Hard Lines/Tubings. If you remove the Fuel Injection Hard Lines you can use regular Wrenches for the Valve Adjustment with the exception that you may need to thin or find some wrenches with thin heads.
Hazet Valve Wrench Head thickness = 0.242 notice that that is close to 1/4" thick. 9/16" works as well as the 14mm ones do.

When you re-install the Fuel Injection Hard Lines do not tighten the Line Nuts at the Injector and crank the Engine to bleed Air out of the lines. When Fuel starts coming out of all of them after some cranking tighten them and attempt to start.

If you have not done the Valve Adjustment I am guessing the Valve Timing or Timing Chain Stretch has never been checked or the Fuel Injection Pump has never been timed.
How to: rebuild IDI Injectors
http://vincewaldon.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=20&Itemid=28

Repair Links
http://www.peachparts.com/shopforum/forumdisplay.php?f=82

http://www.peachparts.com/Wikka/DoItYourSelf
 

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Registered
1984 300D
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5,070 Posts
I have made these comments on Diesel Giant before.
As a Businessman He could be viewed as a good one sicnce Goal is to make Money. You have only to make a price comparison of the items He sells with the same itens sold by other internet Sellers. In short it costs more to buy from Him.
So, if you were sitting with a buch of other Businessmen getting more money for the same parts that others sell for less is considered a good thing.

In particular I think the Injector Nozzle Swapping idea is mainly to sell the Nozzles He is selling. However, I admit if you install a New Injector Nozzle on your old Injector and the old Nozzle was no good it is going to work better than it did before. And, you might be one of the lucky ones who did that and did not have any of the Injectors leak after wards (yes not lapping the precision surfaces can leave leakey Injectors).

Also Diesell Giant and Mercedessource offer unique services as far as information goes. If you are willing to do some reasearch you can find all of that info much cheaper or even for free.
The other issue is that evidently many people cannot do a new to them mechanical job without having Pictures or other visual aids and Diesel Giant and Mercedessource sort of step in and expensivly fill that gap.
Part of the above is due to the fact that Publishers like the Haynes Manual dropped the Ball and did not provide a decent Manual with jobs that most people could do on the Car.

I worked as a Mechanic for 18 years. There is all range of skill levels of Mechanics working at the same jobs and somehow the incompatent ones still manage to hang on to their Jobs; possibly because there is a shortage of Mechanics.

Some are really good BS artists. They can break something on the Customers Vehicle and convince the Customer that it is OK because it really needed to e replaced anyway.

Some of them try to convince you they are a special breed and have some sort of mystic diagnosing powers; to the extent that they even try to do the same to the other Mechanics.
The scary ones are the ones that are really good at certain parts of their job but not at everthing they do and they believe they are good so they don't pay attention to detail.
Then there is Money.
I think Most Mechanics are paid by the job. The more jobs they do during the day the more Money they make (to Shop Too). In some shops the Mechainc also gets a percentage of the Parts He sells/uses. This incourages the Mechanic to rplace parts instead of fixing them and pressures Him to speed up the job and worry about any warranty later.
If a Car comes back under warranty the Mechanic is encouraged to find something else wrong with the Car so they can make some more Money off the Car.
Then there is Shop politics; the Supervisors Buddy is going to get the easiest jobs that pay the most. If one of the Buddy's jobs comes back under warranty the Supervisor is going to do his best to see to it that someone else besides His Buddy has to fix the warranty.
Then there is the Guy called the Service Writer. This is the person you go to and you tell him I am having a noise in my (let's say the Alternator) Alternator. The Service Writer is most often a Sales Person not a Mechanic.
He writes up the Order to replace your Alternator with a rebuilt one.
You pick up your Car and go for a drive and find the noise is still there (no one test drove your Car and the Order only said to replace the Alternator).
You come back pissed off and they check Your Car and find that the Water Pump is the cause of the noise; more $$$$$ for them.
You say why did you replace the Alternator when it was not making noise; they tell you that You told them the Alternator made noise and that is why they replaced it.

And so on......
 

·
Registered
1977 300D, 1980 450SL, Genuine Buddy 125cc Scooter
Joined
·
252 Posts
Discussion Starter #7
I have made these comments on Diesel Giant before.
As a Businessman He could be viewed as a good one sicnce Goal is to make Money. You have only to make a price comparison of the items He sells with the same itens sold by other internet Sellers. In short it costs more to buy from Him.
So, if you were sitting with a buch of other Businessmen getting more money for the same parts that others sell for less is considered a good thing.

In particular I think the Injector Nozzle Swapping idea is mainly to sell the Nozzles He is selling. However, I admit if you install a New Injector Nozzle on your old Injector and the old Nozzle was no good it is going to work better than it did before. And, you might be one of the lucky ones who did that and did not have any of the Injectors leak after wards (yes not lapping the precision surfaces can leave leakey Injectors).

Also Diesell Giant and Mercedessource offer unique services as far as information goes. If you are willing to do some reasearch you can find all of that info much cheaper or even for free.
The other issue is that evidently many people cannot do a new to them mechanical job without having Pictures or other visual aids and Diesel Giant and Mercedessource sort of step in and expensivly fill that gap.
Part of the above is due to the fact that Publishers like the Haynes Manual dropped the Ball and did not provide a decent Manual with jobs that most people could do on the Car.

I worked as a Mechanic for 18 years. There is all range of skill levels of Mechanics working at the same jobs and somehow the incompatent ones still manage to hang on to their Jobs; possibly because there is a shortage of Mechanics.

Some are really good BS artists. They can break something on the Customers Vehicle and convince the Customer that it is OK because it really needed to e replaced anyway.

Some of them try to convince you they are a special breed and have some sort of mystic diagnosing powers; to the extent that they even try to do the same to the other Mechanics.
The scary ones are the ones that are really good at certain parts of their job but not at everthing they do and they believe they are good so they don't pay attention to detail.
Then there is Money.
I think Most Mechanics are paid by the job. The more jobs they do during the day the more Money they make (to Shop Too). In some shops the Mechainc also gets a percentage of the Parts He sells/uses. This incourages the Mechanic to rplace parts instead of fixing them and pressures Him to speed up the job and worry about any warranty later.
If a Car comes back under warranty the Mechanic is encouraged to find something else wrong with the Car so they can make some more Money off the Car.
Then there is Shop politics; the Supervisors Buddy is going to get the easiest jobs that pay the most. If one of the Buddy's jobs comes back under warranty the Supervisor is going to do his best to see to it that someone else besides His Buddy has to fix the warranty.
Then there is the Guy called the Service Writer. This is the person you go to and you tell him I am having a noise in my (let's say the Alternator) Alternator. The Service Writer is most often a Sales Person not a Mechanic.
He writes up the Order to replace your Alternator with a rebuilt one.
You pick up your Car and go for a drive and find the noise is still there (no one test drove your Car and the Order only said to replace the Alternator).
You come back pissed off and they check Your Car and find that the Water Pump is the cause of the noise; more $$$$$ for them.
You say why did you replace the Alternator when it was not making noise; they tell you that You told them the Alternator made noise and that is why they replaced it.

And so on......
So true!! I tried being a mechanic or Tech as they like to be called today for a Korean car dealership. Lasted a year, and I went back to college. Early on I noticed the politics between the Super, the service writers, and their buddies -some of the techs. Big jobs like drivetrains and engine work that actually paid something substantial went to their drinking buddies. Me and others were stuck with flushes, tires, undercar etc. I remember being excited to get suspension and brake work because I could usually beat the time and stack hours. But then that only happened when the other guys were tied up with something else or went to lunch -yea, I had to skip lunch or stay later than them to get an edge. All for a measly 5-600 on a good week. Old timers used to say it was alot better in the past. Now its a hobby and I like it that way.
 

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Registered
1979 & 1985 300D's
Joined
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2,537 Posts
Also Diesell Giant and Mercedessource offer unique services as far as information goes. If you are willing to do some reasearch you can find all of that info much cheaper or even for free.
The other issue is that evidently many people cannot do a new to them mechanical job without having Pictures or other visual aids and Diesel Giant and Mercedessource sort of step in and expensivly fill that gap.
Part of the above is due to the fact that Publishers like the Haynes Manual dropped the Ball and did not provide a decent Manual with jobs that most people could do on the Car.
I don't know if $10 is really THAT expensive for a guide that runs through the entire process of diagnosing and fixing the vacuum door lock system, for example. I've tackled plenty of projects without help, but for others that are more complex where systems rely on other systems and there are unique diagnostic techniques I'd much rather spend two large latte's worth of cash to learn from someone else's trial and tribulations rather than reinventing them myself. :) Just my thoughts.
 

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Registered
1984 300D
Joined
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5,070 Posts
I don't know if $10 is really THAT expensive for a guide that runs through the entire process of diagnosing and fixing the vacuum door lock system, for example. I've tackled plenty of projects without help, but for others that are more complex where systems rely on other systems and there are unique diagnostic techniques I'd much rather spend two large latte's worth of cash to learn from someone else's trial and tribulations rather than reinventing them myself. :) Just my thoughts.
If a person wants to spend Money on information that is their choice. I fact our mentioning that there are instrctional Videos available is going to create some Customers.

But, compare the $10 spent on the Lock System tape to the $19.99+$7 shippping that the Mercedes W123 Manual used to cost; which is the bigger bang for the Buck?
In the long run which is going to save you the Most Money on repairs?

I don't know what the current cost is for the CD Manual Set but if someone is interested they can go direct to the source:
Star Service CDs and DVDs
Contact Consumer Promotions at 1-800-FOR-MERCedes for current pricing and ordering information on the accompanying CDs and DVDs that are available for purchase. Please refer to Service Information S-B-99.00/222J for more on Star Service


Being members of other Forums is also a good source of free information:
Repair Links
DIY Links by Parts Category - PeachParts Mercedes ShopForum

PeachPartsWiki: Do It Yourself Articles - Mercedes Vehicles
 
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