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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
Newsflash: Founders Favored "Government Run Health Care"


U.S. President John Adams


Forbes writer Rick Ungar is getting some attention for a piece arguing that history shows that John Adams supported a strong Federal role in health care. Ungar argues that Adams even championed an early measure utilizing the concept behind the individual mandate, which Tea Partyers say is unconstitutional.

I just ran this theory past a professor of history who specializes in the early republic, and he said there's actually something to it. Short version: There's no proof from the historical record that Adams would have backed the idea behind the individual mandate in particular. But it is fair to conclude, the professor says, that the founding generation supported the basic idea of government run health care, and the use of mandatory taxation to pay for it.

Here's the background. Ungar points out that in July of 1798, Congress passed "An Act for the Relief of Sick and Disabled Seaman," which was signed by President Adams. That law authorized the creation of a government operated system of marine hospitals and mandated that laboring merchant marine sailors pay a tax to support it.

Ungar argues that this blows away the argument made by many opponents of the individual mandate: That it's unconstitutional to mandate that all citizens purchase health coverage, or that this violates the founding fathers' view of the proper role of government.

Is this true? In some ways it is, according to Adam Rothman, an associated professor of history at Georgetown University. He argues that it's a "bit of a leap" to compare the 1798 act directly to the individual mandate, because the act taxed sailors to pay for their health care, rather than "requiring that sailors purchase it."

But Rothman says that it's perfectly legit to see shades of today's debate in that early initiative.

"It's a good example that the post-revolutionary generation clearly thought that the national government had a role in subsidizing health care," Rothman says. "That in itself is pretty remarkable and a strong refutation of the basic principles that some Tea Party types offer."

"You could argue that it's precedent for government run health care," Rothman continues. "This defies a lot of stereotypes about limited government in the early republic."

Also: Some have argued that the individual mandate is, in effect a tax, but one that cuts out the Federal government as middleman. In this reading, everyone will eventually participate in the health system anyway, and the mandate means the Federal government is merely directing people to buy insurance, rather than collecting a tax and using that money to purchase that same insurance for them.

We will never know whether the founding generation would have agreed with this concept or not. They didn't agree on much even among themselves. But in Rothman's view, they are already on record supporting government run health care, financed by mandatory taxation. So there!
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Source: The Plum Line - Newsflash: Founders favored "government run health care"
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Discussion Starter #2
Thomas Jefferson Also Supported Government-Run Health Care And A Tax To Pay For It

Thomas Jefferson Also Supported Government-Run Health Care And A Tax To Pay For It




Thomas Jefferson


Greg Sargent posted yesterday about how our founding fathers, John Adams in particular, supported a plan that gave federally-run health care. Our second president signed into law the creation of federally-run marine hospitals with a mandated tax to support them. Historian Adam Rothman of Georgetown adds that Thomas Jefferson supported this plan as well, telling Sargent:

Alexander Hamilton supported the establishment of Marine Hospitals in a 1792 Report, and it was a Federalist congress that passed the law in 1798. But Jefferson (Hamilton’s strict constructionist nemesis) also supported federal marine hospitals, and along with his own Treasury Secretary, Albert Gallatin, took steps to improve them during his presidency. So I guess you could say it had bipartisan support.

Take that, Tea Partiers!
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Source: Thomas Jefferson Also Supported Government-Run Health Care And A Tax To Pay For It Alan Colmes' Liberaland
 

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Guess what. The constitution they wrote tells a differing story, as 2 judges have already noted.
 

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You do realize that other judges have found it constitutional, do you not?
 

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WOW! The lengths people will go to stretch a point.

Aren't the Merchant Marine already under Federal Control?

To extend that a Tax on the Merchant Marines would equate to a nationwide universal health plan is an incredible stretch.

If it was on their minds, do we might have found one note, one discussion, one reference that this care and taxation policy might be extended to all?

Do you meant that while the debated the "first step" towards universal care, they somehow remained silent on their true goal?

Or is the complete absence of any discussion, a truly telling point that they considered the Merchant Marine issue INDEPENDENT from how it is being portrayed in the above referenced articles.

What a steaming pile of horseshit!
 

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I'm gonna check in with my local teabagger, 'cause they know a thing or two about channeling 18th century mindsets and such.
 

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*********************BREAKING NEWS*****************

Those opposed to the healthcare bill will find reasons against it,
and those in favor will find reasons to support it.

While Assholes on both sides will use personal attacks.

Film at 11
 

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I feel really bad for for members of the military and their families. They've had to suffer under government run healthcare for decades. We really should focus on effort on liberating them from the big bad government doctors. I say let them buy their own health insurance on the free market like the rest of us and pay for it out of pocket. That goes for congress too and every other federal worker. After all, they all hate their healthcare right?
 

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I feel really bad for for members of the military and their families. They've had to suffer under government run healthcare for decades. We really should focus on effort on liberating them from the big bad government doctors. I say let them buy their own health insurance on the free market like the rest of us and pay for it out of pocket. That goes for congress too and every other federal worker. After all, they all hate their healthcare right?
You sure?

I always thought that they received medical care provided by their employer as part of the employment contract?

BTW, while today's VA care is very good, don't dismiss where it was prior to 1995.
http://www.ajmc.com/issue/managed-care/2004/2004-11-vol10-n11Pt2/Nov04-1955p828-836

As an EMT, I was witness to some really bad VA car in the early 80's.
 

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On, no no no, government run health care is BAD. Why should the members of the military have to suffer? They should get their health care on the open and free market like the rest of us. The VA is just another government run monopoly trying to crowd out the free market.
 

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On, no no no, government run health care is BAD. Why should the members of the military have to suffer? They should get their health care on the open and free market like the rest of us. The VA is just another government run monopoly trying to crowd out the free market.
They receive their medical care provided by their employer as part of the employment contract?

Much like many significant (and Union) employers.
 

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Ever been to a VA hospital?
I wouldn't advise it.
 

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They receive their medical care provided by their employer as part of the employment contract?

Much like many significant (and Union) employers.
You call it employer, I call it the government. The government should dictate what health care anybody gets. Why discriminate against the armed services?
 

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Wonderful. We get lectured about how John Adams would have supported government run health care. :rolleyes:

Anyone care to explain why we should give a crap considering John Adams signed the Alien and Sedition Act into law. He apparently though that was a swell idea and believed it was constitutional, as well. :thumbsup:
 
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