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'12 Peugeot 3008 HYbrid4 (sorry!)
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Hi,

First of all thanks to GregW for the pricing info on the W164 - it is indeed sticker shock to me!!! It's extraordinary that you can still almost apply 1USD=1EUR to MB prices, when the reality is somewhat different. At BurgerKing in nearby Trier (they have quite a lot of US customers) the exchange rate is 1.5USD to 1 EUR. This may be exaggerated, but still.... - food for thought.

The first test of the 320CDI engine which will be fitted to the ML just came out - in the smaller, lighter C-Class. But since the current I-5 270CDI is also offered in that body I couldn't resist checking the fuel economy and pollution figures - with an astounding result: The new engine uses 3-5% MORE fuel and has worse CO emission. Coming from a company as experienced in engines, perticularly diesel ones, as Mercedes this astounds me, especially taking into consideration the new CDI technique with higher pressure, 7-speed auto and all.

As the official fuel economy figures for the Lexus RX400h have now also been published, I couldn't resist taking the calculations a bit further (complicated like **** because gas and diesel prices vary wildly from one European country to another, and I travel a lot). Of course my calculations are not a scientific study, but the result really surprises me: The total fuel costs were within a hundred euros of each other, with the Lexus being more expensive! Now it has to be said that the calculations for the W164 are projected ones, and include the gas I use for around-town driving with my 600cc smart microcar. I do not currently use the W163 for around-town driving, nor would I use the coming M-Class, as it would be horribly expensive and not very good on the car - the Lexus seem more adapted to that. Even though the smart is economical in tax and insurance, I spend considerably more than 100EUR to run it a year.

Normally, due to price and consumption, diesel is the only reasonable choice here in Europe. But even though we have low-sulphur diesel, there can be critic from some citizens, and problems with being able to drive in some areas. The hybrid technology could change some things here - I have until now been a fervent diesel fan, but in this case you can have your cake and eat it too.

These calculations, in addition to the probable projected price of the W164 compared to the offer I have for the RX400h, is bringing my decision to leave the three-pointed star closer. Too bad - I have been very happy with Mercedes, but their hybrid debut seems years away, and they haven't got the knowhow Toyota has acquired over the years.

Of course, not everything is about fuel economy (and now I'm preparing myself for an avalanche of critics and photos of horribly smashed RX's [;)]), but with one litre (not a gallon) costing around an Euro, it has to be taken into consideration.

Cheers,
Birger

PS: Sorry about the excessively long post [:I]
 

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Good luck!

The rest of us, who are NOT surpriced that a 54 hp stronger engine needs more fuel (170hp in the 270CDI and 224hp in the 320CDI) have to wait and a few more months to humiliate your new Toyota in Armanisuit...

After all, I guess you do the same as all of us, you present arguments to support you decision (I just don't agree with the arguments).

Best luck with your new car.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hello there, ansan

and thanks for the kind, kind words [:D]. Well, certainly I AM surprised to see that a supposedly very much more advanced engine, developed by one of the world's leading engine producers, consumes more fuel to deliver more horsepower (in fact, the growth is bigger than you claim: it's 163 > 224). Most other newly-developed diesel engines in Europe have had more power with less consumption - so it can be done.

I am also aware that the RX series is sold under the Toyota badge in Japan, thank you. As well as I read the numerous comments from readers in the European motoring press that find that the W164 looks like a copy of the Kia Sorento at twice the price [;)].

I think I stated clearly enough in my initial post that I would gladly have bought the W164 if Mercedes had pushed forward their hybrid studies. As it is, if I have to put down considerably more money for a technique that may force me to take public transportation on certain days, I'm sorry, but my sympathy for the brand doesn't stretch that far.

And I'm not taking any definite decision before seeing the actual W164 prices anyhow - which will be in three or four weeks.

Cheers,
Birger
 

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2020 MB GLE 450 4MATIC, 2015 BMW M4
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According to M-B's press release on the new V6 diesel, it does not use more fuel than the 5:

"The C-Class diesel engine line-up will soon be headed by the new 165 kW/224 hp V6 power plant. This new engine offers 32 per cent more rated power than the in-line five-cylinder unit (125 kW/170 hp) it is replacing. In combination with the optional 7G-TRONIC seven-speed automatic transmission, which has never before been offered in the C-Class, it will provide an increase of over 27 per cent in maximum torque over the outgoing model. The rated torque of 510 newton me-tres, a new peak for a six-cylinder diesel engine, comes on stream at just 1600 rpm and remains constant right through to 2800 rpm, resulting in a 0 - 100 km/h acceleration time of just 6.9 seconds for the C 320 CDI (Saloon) and a mid-range acceleration time from 60 to 120 km/h of 6.2 seconds. In this segment too there-fore, dynamic diesel technology is on the advance.

And despite the significant performance hike, the six-cylinder saloon is no thirstier than its already highly fuel-efficient predecessor, with fuel consumption of just 7.3 litres to 7.6 litres per 100 km (NEDC combined fuel consumption with 7G-TRONIC)."

http://www.germancarfans.com/news.cfm/newsid/2050124.002
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Hi Greg,

yep - I also read that, and yet the ECE fuel consumption values for the C320CDI are worse than for the C270CDI - both with auto trans. I don't get it either.

Of course, it might be that the guys at "auto, motor und sport" got their figures mixed up, but normally they're quite careful.

Cheers, and thanks for your constructive input

Birger
 

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Birger...re: diesel cost

I was just in Europe last summer, but didn't notice the cost of diesel compared to gas. Here, at least where I am, diesel runs at least 10 cents more than premium gas! Must be a supply & demand thing. Probably less at the truck stops, as well.
 

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Birger, in addition to the points mentioned so far, one shouldn't forget the C320 CDI is positioned a little differently as there are already the C200 CDI and C220 CDI for the more economical users. So the emphasis with the C320 CDI is on the sporty side, dropping 0-100 from 9.1 to 6.9 seconds, by a whopping 2.2 seconds, while keeping fuel consumption "about" the same, increasing slightly from 6.8 - 7.1 l/100 to 7.3 - 7.6 l/100. With the W164 it's different, the 0-100 dropped by just one second or so to 9.4 seconds and the fuel consumption is around the same at 9.4 l/100. To optimize the economy, one could order the ML280 CDI instead of the ML320 CDI. It looks like the 280 CDI will be introduced with the W164 in Europe. And possibly delete the standard soot particle filter, which is about a 5% penalty, and it meets Euro 4 even without the filter. Nonetheless the RX400h is interesting as well, particulalry around town. However, on the Autobahn the ML CDI is more economical as the RX400h is rated at only 26 MPG HIWAY (and 30 MPG CITY, 28 MPG AVG).

Cheers to Luxyland :)

Wolfgang
 

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Some numbers [:)]
<B>
ML270 CDI 163 PS 400 Nm R5 11.4 sec 183 km/h 9.1 Liter
ML280 CDI 190 PS 440 Nm V6 10.4 sec 200 km/h 9.4 Liter
ML320 CDI 224 PS 510 Nm V6 9.4 sec 210 km/h 9.4 Liter
</B>
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
RE: Birger...re: diesel cost

Hi,

Sorry about taking so long to get back on this:
GregW / Oregon - 2/8/2005 2:21 PM

I was just in Europe last summer, but didn't notice the cost of diesel compared to gas. Here, at least where I am, diesel runs at least 10 cents more than premium gas! Must be a supply & demand thing. Probably less at the truck stops, as well.
Apart from Switzerland, diesel is still considerably cheaper in Europe, but as the difference is based exclusively on taxes, this could change from one moment to the other. There have been talks on reducing the gap, but it's a very touchy subject, as in many EU member states the diesel powered part of all vehicles is extremely high. Some member states tax ownership of diesels much higher, while others don't - for instance here in Luxyland, there's no extra tax (except if the diesel has more cc's than the gas powered one) so as a result we have a whopping 73% of all vehicles being diesel powered.

FYI, here are the current prices in Euros per litre:

http://www.acl.lu/html/tour_info/prix_des_carburants.html

[To get the corresponding US$/gal, multiply by 4.8593331071208]

Kind regards,
Birger
 

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re: diesel cost

Thanks for the info.
 
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