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1997 S600 (sold)
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Discussion Starter #1
I've had an issue with my 1997 S600 sedan with a fast idle, intermittent ESP fault and corresponding limp home mode, and throttle body related OBDII fault code, P1580, for several months, ever since I removed my throttle bodies, cleaned them, and reinstalled them.

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w140-s-class/1348882-1997-s600-cleaned-throttle-bodies-now-fast-idle-issues-p1580-p0507.html?highlight=p1580

I sent both throttle bodies to BBA Remanufacturing for rebuilding afer calling them up and speaking with them. I was told that they will first bench test the throttle body for free. If the throttle body checks out fine, they will return it for the cost of shipping. If they find a problem and do a rebuild, then the charge is $400 for each rebuild, and there is a lifetime warranty on the throttle body.

Before sending them off, I opened one up and was surprised to find it looks pretty simple inside. If I had time to find where I could purchase the potentiometer assemblies, I bet it would be a pretty easy job to do this yourself... But, I wasn't sure how the thing came apart so I didn't want to risk breaking anything this time around.

Anyway, they called and said both needed potentiometer work. $825 later, they got them back in the mail to me. They were prompt. Turnaround was less than a week. I was a little disappointed in the job of recrimping the cover plates back on. I thought with their experience in working with MB throttle bodies, that they'd be better at this. Lots of small denting and heavy scratches from bending the prongs back into place. And a couple weren't bent into place all that completely. Looked fairly abusive. I did a better job myself before sending them off. They did not clean up the exterior at all as far as I could tell. But, I had already cleaned them not too long ago, so they weren't that bad. They did clean the throttle passage and butterfly very thoroughly, however. I don't think they actually removed the butterfly and return spring assembly. Probably not necessary for this rebuild.

Well, I got them on the car yesterday and did a throttle body relearn test drive today (per Robert, "Mercedes Mechanix"). All seems good so far. A little rough idle on first start up, but idle after the drive was stable and at the proper RPM range. No ESP fault or limp home mode on this first drive. My problem appears to be fixed.

I'll try to report back to this thread after some time has passed for an update and certainly if I have a recurring fault.

Brett
 

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1997 S600 Coupe (have owned 1968 280SL, 1978 450SEL, 1980 300TD, 1987 300SDL, 1993 500SEL,1994 E320)
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ETA Rebuild procedure

Brett,
While this is time-late, here is a link to a DIY on a V12 site that may be of some interest.

V12 Uber Alles, Rewiring Electronic Throttle Actuators in a W140 Mercedes Benz

There are several other DIYs to which you have contributed. I don't see where the pot was replaced so that would be a problem if the ETA needed one as you mentioned. I am guessing you knew this was available and was not of any help in your case. Maybe this will help others who might want to tackle this rebuild.
 

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1997 S600 (sold)
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Discussion Starter #3
Brett,
While this is time-late, here is a link to a DIY on a V12 site that may be of some interest.

V12 Uber Alles, Rewiring Electronic Throttle Actuators in a W140 Mercedes Benz

There are several other DIYs to which you have contributed. I don't see where the pot was replaced so that would be a problem if the ETA needed one as you mentioned. I am guessing you knew this was available and was not of any help in your case. Maybe this will help others who might want to tackle this rebuild.
Yes, I am aware of Pete's work. His car is a 1995 model, which is a different design and earlier fuel injection system. Beginning with 1996, fully electronic throttle bodies were introduced (no mechanical cables to the throttles). Nevertheless, as you mention, the issue wasn't with wiring to/from the throttles. It was the throttle position sensing potentiometers within.

I bet you wish you still had that 280SL. They've really run up in price in recent years.

Brett
 

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1997 S600 Coupe (have owned 1968 280SL, 1978 450SEL, 1980 300TD, 1987 300SDL, 1993 500SEL,1994 E320)
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280SL

Indeed I do! The one I had was a European model - no rag top and a bench seat in the back instead. Not good if the rain came while driving, but it was a lot of fun to drive. I really wouldn't want that one now since it had severe rust problems, which I discovered after rust "bubbles" started to appear through the new paint job. Long story, but the end result is the friend who hooked me up with the sale was really pissed at the salesman for screwing me over the way he did. The jerk had even put a tar paper type of stock over the rust underneath and sprayed the rust coat over it to hide the rust! Caveat emptor is alive and well.
 

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1997 S600 (sold)
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Discussion Starter #5
Indeed I do! The one I had was a European model - no rag top and a bench seat in the back instead. Not good if the rain came while driving, but it was a lot of fun to drive. I really wouldn't want that one now since it had severe rust problems, which I discovered after rust "bubbles" started to appear through the new paint job. Long story, but the end result is the friend who hooked me up with the sale was really pissed at the salesman for screwing me over the way he did. The jerk had even put a tar paper type of stock over the rust underneath and sprayed the rust coat over it to hide the rust! Caveat emptor is alive and well.
In that case maybe not... :) But, looking at ads now, it looks like you can't touch a good example for less than $30,000.

Brett
 

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Throttle Bodies

Yes, I am aware of Pete's work. His car is a 1995 model, which is a different design and earlier fuel injection system. Beginning with 1996, fully electronic throttle bodies were introduced (no mechanical cables to the throttles). Nevertheless, as you mention, the issue wasn't with wiring to/from the throttles. It was the throttle position sensing potentiometers within.

I bet you wish you still had that 280SL. They've really run up in price in recent years.

Brett


Brett just been looking at the above post and your reference to 'Petes work'. Do you have a link or anything?

Thank you in advance.
Shane
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Brett just been looking at the above post and your reference to 'Petes work'. Do you have a link or anything?

Thank you in advance.
Shane
Redflash already provided it.

I should update this post. I didn't really keep my word.

So several months later now, I still have a fast idle problem. I would have said the ESP problem was completely solved if it weren't for a rash of 3 or 4 ESP faults in within a couple of days of one another occurring a couple of weeks ago. This was after several months of being ESP fault free. So, I don't know what to think of that. Nothing since, however.

My fast idle problem is getting stranger. I have observed that when the idle is fast, disconnecting the bank 2 MAF sensor actually drops the idle to normal or maybe even too low, but definitely not fast anymore. If I plug it back in, the fast idle returns. I did a short drive one day with just this one MAF unplugged, and the idle stayed low the entire time, but the engine also stumbled and threatened to stall as I came to stops along the drive. Disconnecting the Bank 1 sensor does nothing to the idle. Go figure. Swapping the MAF sensors between banks does nothing. The Bank 2 MAF sensor is still the one that affects the idle. That makes me think the problem is not with the sensors. In the last few weeks, I have noticed that the idle now runs at normal much more often than it did before. The fast idle used to be continuous, now it is more intermittent than it ever was. I don't know what to think.

There certainly is conflicting opinion on rebuilding the throttle bodies. On this forum "Mercedes Mechanix" is highly laudatory of BBA-Reman's work. I tend to really trust what these guys say. On the other hand the head tech at a local independent shop said to me very clearly the other day, "Rebuilt throttle bodies don't work on Mercedes." I also tend to believe these guys know their stuff... But, then again, they wouldn't touch my car with a 10 foot pole.

I had some free time, so I scheduled an appt to address my a check engine light, read codes (for some reason my code reader would only give me one code but said 9 were stored), and also hopefully begin some diagnostics on my fast idle problem. I understood from past visits to the shop during sponsored Porsche club events that they had the factory diagnostic equipment to handle this kind of thing. After my brief discussion with the desk jockey and the head tech mentioned above, they read the codes for me and basically dismissed me from the shop with the statement, "We do limited work on the V-12's." At least they didn't charge me for the 10 min that it took to read the codes. I was quite surprised. Apparently, they didn't have the knowledge or the equipment necessary to even begin to find out why my car would have a fast idle. I was perfectly willing to pay for their time in doing some diagnostic work, but they clearly didn't want my money. I may give the dealership service department a crack at it, or my other option is a non-dealer but factory authorized MB service facility that we have here in town. I need someone with all the proper diagnostic equipment and the knowledge of how to use it. Knowledge of how to use it is key.

Brett
 

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There certainly is conflicting opinion on rebuilding the throttle bodies. On this forum "Mercedes Mechanix" is highly laudatory of BBA-Reman's work. I tend to really trust what these guys say. On the other hand the head tech at a local independent shop said to me very clearly the other day, "Rebuilt throttle bodies don't work on Mercedes."
It's seem to me quite likely that these rebuilders aren't really able to properly restore failed potentiometers, and let marginal ones slip through. Too bad potentiometers aren't still replaceable as a separate part - but that cuts into factory sales of new throttle actuators.
 

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Hey Brett,
Did you do anything finally to your MAF sensors?
How did you end up solving the fast idling problem?

I just went into a quick buy-new-parts session for a few stuff that were needed on my car and I order:
-2 MAF meters
-4 O2 sensors
and after the installation of these parts is going to be a TBA rebuild by the BBA's guys
Actually what's weird.. the MAF weren't bothering me much since disconnecting them led to majors hesitation, so I though they were ok.. till I went down to the tail pipes and found that one pipe had MUCH more air flow than the other (my exhast setup is new (Cats and mufflers). So my instinct got me to switch MAF's side to side. Guess what!.. Air flow difference switched from side to side.. from a pipe to the other!!!!!:eek:
Now that won't solve my p1580 code and frequent limp home mode during idle/slow traffic idleing.. BUT can't wait to see the result of this update after seeing the condictions of my curent MAFs.
These pieces of electronic are the Film type, not the Hot wire type... so the surface of the film gets damaged easily with air dirt and lead to stupid problems!
I would still appreceat an update about your problem :thumbsup::p
 

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1997 S600 (sold)
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Discussion Starter #10
Hey Brett,
Did you do anything finally to your MAF sensors?
How did you end up solving the fast idling problem?

I just went into a quick buy-new-parts session for a few stuff that were needed on my car and I order:
-2 MAF meters
-4 O2 sensors
and after the installation of these parts is going to be a TBA rebuild by the BBA's guys
Actually what's weird.. the MAF weren't bothering me much since disconnecting them led to majors hesitation, so I though they were ok.. till I went down to the tail pipes and found that one pipe had MUCH more air flow than the other (my exhast setup is new (Cats and mufflers). So my instinct got me to switch MAF's side to side. Guess what!.. Air flow difference switched from side to side.. from a pipe to the other!!!!!:eek:
Now that won't solve my p1580 code and frequent limp home mode during idle/slow traffic idleing.. BUT can't wait to see the result of this update after seeing the condictions of my curent MAFs.
These pieces of electronic are the Film type, not the Hot wire type... so the surface of the film gets damaged easily with air dirt and lead to stupid problems!
I would still appreceat an update about your problem :thumbsup::p
It looks like we discussed this before in this thread:

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w140-s-class/1348882-1997-s600-cleaned-throttle-bodies-now.html

Everything I've done is explained there in post #15.

But, all is not entirely right. I still have an occasional ESP fault (the throttle bodies are probably still not right), and I have seen code P1581 recently, which is a fault code for the throttle body. And, I still have misfire codes occasionally for all of bank 1. I sometimes feel a slight constant vibration at idle, which could be misfiring, but it's not a bad misfire. So, I'm not sure. There are so many things which could cause this. It may have vacuum leaks causing problems, too. I'm just not sure. This engine probably needs the intake taken off and completely cleaned up along with all intake gaskets replaced, injector O-rings replaced, and all vacuum lines replaced, and I don't know if I have the desire to do it. I'd love to just replace the throttle bodies, too, but I don't have the money for that at this time.

Brett
 

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I'm sorry Brett, I know we've discussed this before :D It was to know if something new came to the table.. as there was for me (the MAF comportment).
Ok There this mechanic who did a VERY interresting video on how to test the throttle body I'd like to share. It concerns VDO Drive-by-wire TBAs for the W140 and W129 but I think it would be very similar for the Bosch's one
He also runs a website restoreyourmercedes . com
I hope it helps!

Basically:
Pin /(part) = /expected correct resistance
11 - 4 (Motor)= 0 ohm
13 - 12 (Clutch)= 0 ohm (0.02 kohm)
1 - 3 (main Pot.1)= 0.6 kohm closed,1.3 kohm lever open, 1.6 kohm hand WOT
14 - 1 (main Pot.2)= 1.6 kohm closed , 0.6 kohm hand open WOT
14 - 3 (cruise ctrl.)= 0.6 kohm closed,1.3 kohm lever open, 1.6 kohm hand WOT
2 - 3 (pot. R2 ??)=1.6 kohm closed,1.3 kohm lever open, 0.6 kohm hand WOT
6 - 10 (N switch S2)(idle)= 0.4 kohm closed, discontinuation at the slightest touch
8 - 10 (N switch S1)(Wot)= discontinuation closed, 0.4 kohm at the slightest touch
 

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1997 S600 (sold)
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Discussion Starter #12
I've seen the website. He has posted on this forum. I don't recall his username. That's a nice video. I hadn't seen that one, but I had seen another of his videos. Good stuff. This is an LH-SFI fuel injection throttle body, so it is different than later ME-SFI cars.

I've not done anything to the W140 recently. The fast idle is solved per the earlier thread, but as I said, I do still have the occasional recurring ESP fault/limp home mode and the issue with misfire codes for every cylinder on bank 1. I don't think the BBA-remanufacturing rebuilds did any good.


Brett
 

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I've reviewed the diagram for the newer models and I'll be posting them soon but I wanna get my hands on the 125 pins plate that parallels both connectors for the N3/11 and N3/12 to check voltage at work and not only resistance when off.

I have a question, not directly related to the subject but I wanted to ask it though.. when 1 potentiometer fails in a TBA and the ME hold it back to 60% of it WOT (as per ALLDATA), what happens to the fuel injected? Could it run rich without compensating (diminishing)? Matter of fact, how can an engine rev so high (6k rpm) if the throttle valves don't open much that 25% of their WOT (My case)
In my case.. I have all the time, (not when BAS/ESP errupts) when the Throttle accelerator is depressed (manually or with pedal) BOTH TBA opening at exactly the same angle, with a limited 25% of the WOT position on position 2 of the ignition, limit that comes a quarter-to-half way through the throttle travel. Resistance numbers were ok on the Pedal position accelerator and on both TBA, that's why I wanna check the voltage too.
Am I missing something? Is there another system that can hold the throttle back but still throw a p1580!?
 

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1997 S600 (sold)
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Discussion Starter #14
Last week, I decided to pull the throttle bodies and send them back to BBA-Reman for a check and more work (under the lifetime warranty) if their bench testing shows problems. I just got a voice mail today saying that their testing indicated no problems. So, I guess I'll slap them back on and see what happens. I will swap the throttle bodies between banks and see if the fault code, if it shows up again, also swaps banks. Code was P1581 for the bank 2 throttle body. P1580 is for the bank 1 throttle body.

Brett
 

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1997 S600 (sold)
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Discussion Starter #15
I've reviewed the diagram for the newer models and I'll be posting them soon but I wanna get my hands on the 125 pins plate that parallels both connectors for the N3/11 and N3/12 to check voltage at work and not only resistance when off.

I have a question, not directly related to the subject but I wanted to ask it though.. when 1 potentiometer fails in a TBA and the ME hold it back to 60% of it WOT (as per ALLDATA), what happens to the fuel injected? Could it run rich without compensating (diminishing)? Matter of fact, how can an engine rev so high (6k rpm) if the throttle valves don't open much that 25% of their WOT (My case)
In my case.. I have all the time, (not when BAS/ESP errupts) when the Throttle accelerator is depressed (manually or with pedal) BOTH TBA opening at exactly the same angle, with a limited 25% of the WOT position on position 2 of the ignition, limit that comes a quarter-to-half way through the throttle travel. Resistance numbers were ok on the Pedal position accelerator and on both TBA, that's why I wanna check the voltage too.
Am I missing something? Is there another system that can hold the throttle back but still throw a p1580!?
I can't answer your questions. I don't think I've seen the P1581 fault code without having the car go into an ESP fault and limp home mode. I always get the ESP fault, then the check engine light comes on. When the car goes into limp home mode, the system seems to default to a set fuel map (possibly no longer using input from the air mass meters). On my car, the idle rises to a faster idle and becomes rough.

What is the problem you're having again. I can't quite understand what you have said.

Brett
 

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Last week, I decided to pull the throttle bodies and send them back to BBA-Reman for a check and more work (under the lifetime warranty) if their bench testing shows problems. I just got a voice mail today saying that their testing indicated no problems. So, I guess I'll slap them back on and see what happens. I will swap the throttle bodies between banks and see if the fault code, if it shows up again, also swaps banks. Code was P1581 for the bank 2 throttle body. P1580 is for the bank 1 throttle body.

Brett
P1580 = Right or sole EA/CC/ISC Actuator CIRCUIT faulty

P1581 = Left EA/CC/ISC Actuator CIRCUIT faulty


Honestly I would make sure that the throttle plate is not hanging up, if its pulling to many amp's before off idle, it will trip the light.

By hanging up I mean mechanically. Like a burr on the plate or a low spot in the venturi, where the plate would hang.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
I feel for you Brett. I hope you get this sorted out. Good Luck!
Thanks, and me too. :) Pretty sure it is decided that the S600 is going on the market as soon as the throttle bodies get put back in. Reduced income these days meaning we need to reduce the fleet size. Want to use the cash to fund completion of the 911's engine rebuild.

Brett
 

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Mercedes mechanic; said:
Honestly I would make sure that the throttle plate is not hanging up, if its pulling to many amp's before off idle, it will trip the light.

By hanging up I mean mechanically. Like a burr on the plate or a low spot in the venturi, where the plate would hang.
That's interesting.. can you explain a bit more please, I know what a venturi effect is but I couldn't understand quiet well what you meant by "a low spot in the venturi" :eek:

Brett good luck I'd hope you keep it since you'd have at that point a perfectly running w140 and just run it less if it's really costly to you but hey do your 911 project and maybe you could spot your 600 on sale a few years down the road and grab it again :D
 

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That's interesting.. can you explain a bit more please, I know what a venturi effect is but I couldn't understand quiet well what you meant by "a low spot in the venturi"
Its not like a carburator, the venturi acts only as a air flow thru. Now after years of the throtle plate closing it might be worn in that area.

Just check and see if the plate is hanging in the bore.
 
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