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1987 560 sec impala metalflake over cream
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
well today was the day i pulled battery&tray out,snorkels, air box, plugs & wires.then removed cam cover on passenger side. just to see if i needed new guides & chain! so here are my questions, 1; 2 of the plugs were more than hard to remove, didn't look damaged, but the threads looked dry. so any thoughts why?. the rest were east to remove, almost finger tight. all plugs looked good.Bosch supper rg 762 W9DC.? 2; what should i use? 3;didn't realize the cam gaskets are a thick rubber, ( just assumed it was cork/paper.) so i think i can use them again?as the bolts were not even tight & oil would sweat out, so if i tighten them a little more when i install they should work?4;so as to level the car i put it in neutral so the tension was off & it rolled level,then back in park. the chain was loose to the right side of the cam sprocket ( facing car, passenger side) when we tried to turn engine over, using 2 sockets on air cond. pump & alternator together, it wouldn't go, so we backed it up so chain was tight on loose side then tried it & it went, now chain was tight always. do you think the pistons & valves touched? 5; how else should we turn engine, or is this ok? 6; we aligned the marks on the cam tower( after 1 complete rotation), and on the crank in my estimate it showed 7.5 to the left side! is that a lot? the guides were an opaque reddish brown, intact, & no cracks.sprocket was ok IMO, what to do?
 

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I can only talk about the valve cover seals- replace'em. I got mine at NAPA in Edmonton for CAD 11 each. German made. My old seals were as hard as plastic and came off in bits and pieces. Since the replacement - no more leaks.
:thumbsup:
 

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Depends on the day!
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NGK Bp6ES. gap to .042, w/ a bit on anti seize.. if they don't spin in pretty easily STOP! and 2x check that they aren't cross threaded..esp those towards the rear of the engine.

No, replace gaskets.

Your method to turn the engine over is odd, but get a 27mm and put it on the crank bolt w/ a breaker bar. Clockwise ONLY!

7.5, time for chain in which case time for guides, tensioner and oil line clips. If you have over 150K get a set of cam gears too..

Jonathan
 

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1987 560 sec impala metalflake over cream
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Discussion Starter #4 (Edited)
I can only talk about the valve cover seals- replace'em. I got mine at NAPA in Edmonton for CAD 11 each. German made. My old seals were as hard as plastic and came off in bits and pieces. Since the replacement - no more leaks.
:thumbsup:
thanks. used to live in Edmonton. good to hear from a canuk.
 

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1987 560 sec impala metalflake over cream
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Discussion Starter #5 (Edited)
NGK Bp6ES. gap to .042, w/ a bit on anti seize.. if they don't spin in pretty easily STOP! and 2x check that they aren't cross threaded..esp those towards the rear of the engine.

No, replace gaskets.

Your method to turn the engine over is odd, but get a 27mm and put it on the crank bolt w/ a breaker bar. Clockwise ONLY!

7.5, time for chain in which case time for guides, tension er and oil line clips. If you have over 150K get a set of cam gears too..

Jonathan
THANKS. can you price it for me shipping in? hope its feasible to buy from you as i like to patronize small business. iv done all the searching the forums & collected pics & write ups,so im educated enough to learn, but still its a big step.
 

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1987 560 sec impala metalflake over cream
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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
i know i was told to change the guides,& tension er. But i will leave the chain for now, anyone with a different opinion? plus were some guides made with aluminum? , was it a factory thing or after market ? or are they still available ?
 

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1990 560 SEC(gone but not forgoten) 1988 560SL 1998 E320 4matic wagon
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258 Posts
I just did this job on my 90 SEC. do a search for the thread. There are several diy stickys on the job. None cover the chain and guides together.I got all my parts from Johnathan. Dont go cheap on the tentioner the $230 oem one is a must. I did the cam gears also You need to remove them to get the guides out. My guides were intact but broke when I pulled out the pins. Thank fully I have a long skinny needle nose to retrive the pieces. You will also need as stated the 27mm socket to turn over the engine and a metric allen socket for the alternator bracket. Several of the allen head bolts stripped out internaly and I had to resort to vicegrips. I removed the fan and cruise control but the alt and steering pump I just layed aside without disconecting. Also you need to take out the distribtor to get to the one guide pin. I was paranoid so I set the crank to tdc marked the distb replaced the guide and put it back in. I did the guides before removing the chain because I figured the old chain would be streched and looser making it easyr to get the guides out.
I did the job over 3 nights I had just had a hernia operation so I limited myself to 3 hours a night.

A short list of tools were:
sockets
27mm
13mm swivel
10mm
13mm
combos
22mm
13mm
(2) 17mm
6mm allen
torque wrench for the sproket bolts
 

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1990 560 SEC(gone but not forgoten) 1988 560SL 1998 E320 4matic wagon
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I saw a lot of posts about the mythical alluminum guides. I think this started because the tentioner rail is metal and the plastic/nylon wear shoe snaps on to it. Think about it do you realy want a steel hardened chain running against an alluminum shoe? It would eat it up in a heartbeat. The only thing that could possibly work would be oil impregnated bronze and it would generate filings in the engine oil. My guides had very little wear. I think a almost 20 year life is pretty good.
 

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1987 560 sec impala metalflake over cream
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1,087 Posts
Discussion Starter #9 (Edited)
I just did this job on my 90 SEC. do a search for the thread. There are several diy stickys on the job. None cover the chain and guides together.I got all my parts from Johnathan. Dont go cheap on the tentioner the $230 oem one is a must. I did the cam gears also You need to remove them to get the guides out. My guides were intact but broke when I pulled out the pins. Thank fully I have a long skinny needle nose to retrive the pieces. You will also need as stated the 27mm socket to turn over the engine and a metric allen socket for the alternator bracket. Several of the allen head bolts stripped out internaly and I had to resort to vicegrips. I removed the fan and cruise control but the alt and steering pump I just layed aside without disconecting. Also you need to take out the distribtor to get to the one guide pin. I was paranoid so I set the crank to tdc marked the distb replaced the guide and put it back in. I did the guides before removing the chain because I figured the old chain would be streched and looser making it easyr to get the guides out.
I did the job over 3 nights I had just had a hernia operation so I limited myself to 3 hours a night.

A short list of tools were:
sockets
27mm
13mm swivel
10mm
13mm
combos
22mm
13mm
(2) 17mm
6mm allen
torque wrench for the sproket bolts
sound like you removed a lot of stuff! never read that you need to remove the dist.? but ill be at it again this morning, & see what your talking about. maby that's what i seen was the tension er with aluminum poking out? but in the DIY. sticky it does say to leave it alone?so i'm glad for your reply, & from someone who still has it fresh in his mind. the tension er at 230 does that just include the banana shaped piece? today im taking the drivers side cover off, fan, dist. thanks for your reply
 

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1987 420SEL
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Those cam cover bolts go back on @ 4Nm; this is why they were easy to remove. Make sure you get new crush washers, as they're single-use.

If you don't happen to have a 27mm socket, a 1-1/16" works. (They seem to be more plentiful in the tool boxes of the masses). You'd have to be one serious gorilla to be able to collide the pistons and bend valves without noticing the significant force required to do so.

What to do if you drop the chain:

Even if you get every component in the timing circuit completely out of time, it is very simple to rectify the situation. Before I assembled my engine the easy way, I mocked-up the front cover and replicated the scenario of someone dropping the entire chain into the engine, just for fun. You can get the chain back, everything timed correctly and re-assembled, it just takes a little patience. If this happens, you'll have to remove the lower oil pan to see everything from the underside and patiently use one of those long magnets on the end of a copper wire (It's just a standard lost-parts pick-up tool).

The first thing to do is not worry about the distributor sprocket. You can move that around all day long and it literally takes 5 minutes, if that, to reset.

Remove the tensioner, so the tensioner rail isn't in the way.

The tensioner rail has an aluminum backing with a plastic cover that just slips on. You only have to replace the cover, if anything, as the actual aluminum rail isn't subject to appreciable wear.

Manipulate the chain with the magnet and pull it up through the timing cover. Take hold of one end, and secure it with a screw-driver or something similar so it doesn't fall back in the timing case. Repeat the procedure for the other side. As long as you have control of both ends of the chain, you can simply yank it up and back onto the crank sprocket, watching everything for alignment from underneath.

Also, if you drop the chain, remove the rails and don't install new ones until you have the chain looped back up through the heads; it's considerably more difficult to pull the chain up with the rails in place.

When realigning the cam sprockets to the crank sprocket, move all 3 in unison by small increments. Remember that for every fraction of a turn the cam sprockets make, the crank should be clocked about twice that amount. If something binds, check the chain first for clearance in the timing case and then back off the last thing you turned. Then continue turning the other components.

The distributor gear can be reset by getting the engine to TDC and then removing the distributor cap and seeing which plug the rotor is aligned with. If it's not #1, remove the distributor and turn the rotor to the correct position and then re-install.

A rough way of getting #1 to TDC would be to insert something like a thin metal rod through the spark-plug opening, ensuring it's touching the piston and then turning the crank until the rod just stops and starts moving back down with the piston. Just make sure the rod isn't simply sliding along the surface of the piston and thereby not giving you an accurate representation of its actual position. Use the crank balancer for reference.
 

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1987 420SEL
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I saw a lot of posts about the mythical alluminum guides. I think this started because the tentioner rail is metal and the plastic/nylon wear shoe snaps on to it. Think about it do you realy want a steel hardened chain running against an alluminum shoe? It would eat it up in a heartbeat. The only thing that could possibly work would be oil impregnated bronze and it would generate filings in the engine oil. My guides had very little wear. I think a almost 20 year life is pretty good.
Exactly. Plastic makes sense because if you're going to have filings running around the oil, you want something that is appreciably softer than the base metal of the engine block.

That, and very inexpensive to manufacture.
 

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1987 560 sec impala metalflake over cream
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Discussion Starter #12 (Edited)
well we can once & for ever, lay the myth down about the aluminum or metal or anything other than the plastic guide rails. so today i removed the drivers side cam cover, layed the alternator aside & removed its bracket. removed the fan, so now i can turn the engine by the crank. a couple problem areas were a black hose, at the rear of engine bay that didn't let the cover come out, i had no choice but to cut it! it ran to a metal tube behind the motor, which had 2 nut to separate it but couldn't get to it cuz of throttle linkage. don't know what it does? but i will find out I'm sure.had to go back to a post to find out why 2 fuel lines were hooked into the air cond. didn't know what was going on, & had to find out before i unhooked them.what was once a fact finding mission has turned into a full blown timing chain & guide replacement! there goes the tiers i was going to buy, YA! yesterday.so close. imo. all my vacuum lines & rubber connectors don't look as bad as some, but after a job like this I'm sure I'll have problems? so fare its not been too frustrating, but its not over.I'm taking pictures along the way & will post the most crucial ones later, as there are lots already.
 

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The fuel lines that went into the cylinder w/the AC hoses on it is just a primitive fuel-cooler of sorts. Removing the fuel lines will not de-pressurize the system, but do not touch the AC lines.

You cut a black hose near the rear of the engine? Metal pipe? Passenger side, by any chance?

If so, you've just cut the coolant hose to the cylinder head from the heater core; complete PITA to replace. If you've made a clean enough cut, you may be able to go to a truck/industrial supply shop and get a brass air-brake connector or similar to splice the hose back together. Secure it with 2 hose clamps.
 

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1990 560 SEC(gone but not forgoten) 1988 560SL 1998 E320 4matic wagon
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Sorry I forgot to mention the fuel lines. Also the vacuum hose to the brake booster has to be removed to get the drivers side cam cover off. I'll bet this is the one he cut. I just took it off the booster and pulled enough slack to get the cover off.
 

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1990 560 SEC(gone but not forgoten) 1988 560SL 1998 E320 4matic wagon
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I always figured this was a fuel cooler as most diesels with return lines have them.But what good does it do if the ac is off or out of freon as mine is currently?
 

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'00 Mazda MPV, '98 Chrysler Cirrus
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Don't Start! LOL.
Did I miss something?

Now that I know I need to change my timing chain guides (age), Al guides are still more appealing to me. I'd rather end up with shavings in my oil pan than holes in my pistons.
 

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1987 420SEL
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Did I miss something?

Now that I know I need to change my timing chain guides (age), Al guides are still more appealing to me. I'd rather end up with shavings in my oil pan than holes in my pistons.
I think the ones in the photo have a running surface of different material; perhaps more chain-friendly.

There's got to be some sort of catch...(Why would you NOT assemble an engine with those guides?)
 
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