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bug,nova,rabbit,sub
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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I was just wondering how or what you have done to get more out of the little motor. I know the popular thing is to save up for a deisel, but i'm from the hot rod world and that is kind of the last resort. Why can't you get the same power out of a modified gas motor. Have you ported the head? Is there a cam swap from a passenger car to be done? It does not have to be spun to the moon to get more torque to go up hills. I know it's a "tractor" and am not thinking about top speed, more of wheeling speed. If I have to rack up a few thousand bucks to swap to a deisel, why not just go whole hog and fab in one of the smallblock chevy's in my garage. By then I won't care that I have to make a new cab anyway (It's already cost this much Why Not!). I am just wondering what has been done by others like cams headers temp coatings... thanks to all who reply [:D]
 

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There has been plenty of folks tweak a 2.2L for more power, including high compression heads, headers, etc. You can even swap in a 2.8L, if you can find one.

But you need to look at what you're trying to achieve. A stock 404 matches the HP of my 406, but I can smoke a 404 if there is any appreciable grade. Torque at low RPM is what the diesel provides.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I understand the torque my nova makes plenty of it. Horsepower is derived from the production of torque. that is what i'm asking, how has it been done in the past. Do I have to go and ask someone in the other section of this forum how to get more power out of a "vintage" mercedes and apply that. I didn't think I would have to go that route the unimog is after all a vintage mercedes. I'm not knocking the deisel or the 2.2 I just don't want to go that route until I am satisfied that I have done the most I can with what I have.
A good case in point is my vw Rabbit. It came with a 1.5L motor that was completly stock. It got 22 mpg in that shape. I went to the junkyard and found a 2.5 inch Flowmaster on a truck for $5.00 and had it installed. Instantly my mpg went up 6-7 mpg. Just by changing one part of the whole system but not losing sight of my final goal of 100 hp at the wheels. Needless to say the motor ate a piston because of a vacuum leak. Now it is slated to get a much more powerful 2.0L with more compression, bigger cam, ceramic coated header, piston coating, chamber coating ....
I just wanted to know if anyone out threre had tryed to swap a cam from a car when they changed the head or do we collectivly roll over and accept the lack of power untill we can get our hands on the deisel? thanks for listening.
[:D]
 

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NC said it. Not the diesel part. Those are the most common upgrades for more horse. No simple solutions sorry. Search the archives and you probably will find the info on which head you need. If ya dont; just call out Im sure someone will have it
 

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Let me give the subject a little stab, I am going to say a whole lot of nothing and my last paragraph already has been said, I have a 406, maybe someone with a 404 that has tweaked it will chime in with some parts.

Starting with basics, yes torque is all any engine produces, torque being the twisting effort around a shaft tending to cause rotation, using old English math, torque in pounds feet is, Torque = 5,252 X HP / RPM.

One HP is the rate of work required to raise 33,000Lbs to the height of one foot in one minute time. HP can not be read, is an empirical number, is calculated by placing an engine in a dynamometer and reading the torque and then applying the formula;
HP = Torque (lbs/ft) X RPM / 5,252 a number is obtained, in essence HP is work and time.

Now in any IC engine we can increase HP by increasing RPM and or Torque, but one will affect the other. A good example of how RPM affects the total HP output is a formula 1 engine, they are little 3 liters engines but they generate about 300HP per liter or 900HP in total, how is that done in a N/A engine? By turning the engine up to speeds of 18,000 RPM’s since HP is different than work because a time element is included if we can develop more work within the same time frame we increased HP.

A clear example, if a piston in one stroke generates 10HP and that cycle to be completed takes one second we have developed 10HP, if we modify the engine in such a way that in the same second the engine completes 3 strokes we have an engine developing 30HP per second. ( I hope you all can excuse the simplicity of the example since I am using a 1 second time frame when the definition of HP is work per “minute�)

So far these are simple theoretical definitions, to put this theories into practice it requires the engineering or design aspects, to clarify, we go back to our formula 1 engine, in order to achieve those incredible RPM’s the designers have to take into account many aspects, one is physics and metallurgy, a piston at those speeds generates extreme kinetic energies, the pistons have to be made very small so the have very little mass (since kinetic energy is a function of mass x velocity) they don’t want to reduce the speed of the piston because it will negate the output, they will reduce the other variable, the mass, the KE has to be reduced so the forces don’t exceed the elongation point of the metal, remember those pistons are traveling at 300 strokes per second, in milliseconds they have to stop and reverse their travel, if they are heavy they will come apart at the end of their travel, that is why they divide the volume into 10 cylinders (actually an improvement from 12 and increased RPM’s)

To feed the air at those speeds is another challenge, that is why nitrogen actuators are used to avoid histheresis.

Torque can be increased without touching volumes by raising compression rates which in turn will raise the HP number.
I went to these examples just to illustrate principles only since you mention the hot rod school, back to our 2.2 engine.

If you want to increase HP out of that old engine, you would need a cam with a different profile so the valves opens deeper and longer so it breathes more air.
If the pistons are cupped you would want some with a flatter profile so the compression is raised.
If you know how to do porting it would be handy along with bigger valves again to increase breathing.
Increased carburetion since ratios will be changed by higher speeds.
Lets leave alone the crank, balancing, strokes (throw length) etc, since that is completely out of the question. Really none of the above is realistic.

So what is realistic, from the little I read the M180 2.2 engine comes with a standard 7 to 1 compression producing 82HP @ 48550 RPM and 105 Ft/Lb @ 3200RPM.
With the high compression head at 8.7 to 1 is rated at 105HP, with dual carburetors the rating is at 124 HP.

With some leg work you may be able to find a used high compression head and the dual carburetor set up and gain 42 HP if you have the standard set up, this is the easiest and more sensible modification.
Turbo charging is an option too along with a lot of work.
Remember Unimog carburetors are especially made to operate at extreme angles and not flood/starve or spill gas and possibly start a fire.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Thanks for your reply's to the question. I did not come to start a "gas vs. deisel" debate, if that is the best way to go so be it. I do not have a deisel. I merly wanted to know if there are other cams that have been tried and so forth. I know about how this stuff works, I'm no slouch. I just wanted to know what has been done to this motor to put more pep in it's step. Not to build it into a 12.00 second drag truck as I already have a car for that.
Turbo charging is a very good option but also expensive. I know if I went that route it would also be fuel injected.
Let me restate my question. What have you found through trial and error that has helped the performance of your 2.2L motor?
 

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There is plenty of info out there if you search for it. I already gave you a couple of items, but here you go...headers, high compression head, free flowing exhaust, free flowing filter, etc. There might be a hotter cam out there, but I wouldn't know.

Try searching the Mog list archives. Everything you are looking for is in there.

http://playground.sun.com/~brutus/uni/search.html

Have fun.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks for your input and the link to the archive. I had forgot about it being buried in my favorites.
 

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Pork, reground cam, mikuni's, make the rest!

best thing to do is search the old pirate unimog archives and see if the posts there under mogadillo still show the cam grinder and the manley valve part numbers for the biger valves, find a good hot rod head shop and get them to rework a hi compression head with the manelys and build ya own intake and exhaust manifold to run. All u will hear is a lot of whinning in the archives about no parts off the shelf or over priced used junk aftermarket carbs that will catch on fire when your mog is leaning over to one side off camber. The diesel suxxs worse than the gasoline, there are new parts out there and people who want to work if ya got the buxxs. The Mikks are snowmoblie carbs and are a sweet outfit to tune and jet, u can buy 3 of them for what one crummy new stock carb cost nowdays. You need to buy a junk head and intake&exhaust manifiolds for fabbing ya custom intake and exhaust, it will be the most fun u have ever had to build ya own if ya got the skills, header companies have weld ya own kits 4 cheap diy, build the header like a giant tork pipe on a dirt bike, use cheap stuff until u get a good intake and exhaust made up. Be carful on the id ing of the heads, some will not work due to various hassles. The cam grinder was in oregon or across the line in canada i think?
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
THANK YOU that is just the shot in the arm that I was hoping to find here. Real world things not just speculation on what might this and might not that.

On the carb subject Holley has a 4x4 specfic unit just for steep angles and other problems off road related. That might also be another way to go...

I'm not afraid of a challenge and not looking for a free lunch. If there's more out there please come forward and let me know. Thank you again, Peter.[}:)]
 

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What exactly are you using your mog for??? Do you drive it offroad with big wide tires or have been thinking about doing so???? Got front and rear winch??? Cheapest and best winch is to get surplus US army units and build ya own bumpers front and rear so u wlll never be stuck. Also toss the stock junk tires and buy some mich's of some kind, the stock tire is a loser in mudd, got pics of ya mog online? I would buy some plate centers from usa6x6 for the 404 and some blank budd wheels to put them in and run 14x20 or 13x20 or something around there if ya not on the hiway a lot. Check any ag spray rig or fertilizer place for the giant floation tires they may have tossed, u can regrove them u self and get unreal traction and support off the nose heavy 404, ya dew know there are free tires to be had if ya a scrounger, sometimes they have a junk truck with the wheels and am robbing it for parts, also sometimes you can find a free$1200 tire with sidewall or big hole and get it revulcaned at a real offroad tire place and run it offroad to get floation, plus there is a Washington Tire store that sells Apple tires, they are 16.1 wheel size x44 tall by 18.8 wide, not sure if they fit on a 404 wheel, i ferget nowdaysLOL
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I mostly have to drive around in the city to get to where it is i'm going. But I live far enough from anywhere to go offroad a smaller more well mannered tire is what I will eventually buy. My friend's radio box has 10.5 Michelins on it but I have always liked the 12.5's. No pictures yet nothing to exciting to look at just another troop carrier. I was thinking of painting it peweter metalic gray inside and out with a custom red "tuck and roll" door panels and accents like gauges set in custom brich or other wood panel dyed red like on some guitars. At this point things are on hold to get more ideas on where the mechanic's of it all are going. I also need to sell my car to get some working capital. Oh yeah and that whole family thing too, my three and a half month pregnant wife just had her appendix taken out this week so things are kinda slow going. No time like the present to become better educated about the subject at hand.[:D]
 

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Andrew - 2/6/2005 11:19 PM

So what is realistic, from the little I read the M180 2.2 engine comes with a standard 7 to 1 compression producing 82HP @ 48550 RPM and 105 Ft/Lb @ 3200RPM.
With the high compression head at 8.7 to 1 is rated at 105HP, with dual carburetors the rating is at 124 HP.
And if you go all the way to the 2.8L engine from a mid 70's 280, I think you're up into the 150+ HP range, closer to 175HP if you find a injected engine. I 'think' [:p] all these blocks are the same size and will fit in the same holes.

Then, maybe, you start breaking things. From another currently running thread on a different board, a 350 small block Chevy engine seems to have the power to break the locker ring in a 404..
 

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Mogasaurus - 2/9/2005 10:24 AM

And if you go all the way to the 2.8L engine from a mid 70's 280, I think you're up into the 150+ HP range, closer to 175HP if you find a injected engine. I 'think' [:p] all these blocks are the same size and will fit in the same holes.

Then, maybe, you start breaking things. From another currently running thread on a different board, a 350 small block Chevy engine seems to have the power to break the locker ring in a 404..
I am glad you brought up the subject, designed stress limits of drive components, or safety redundancy. The subject of increasing HP has been endlessly discussed before, especially in the 404.
I remember Jack Russell giving figures to the stress limits of different drive components, something like 1: 1.17 for the hub spur gears, the whole list went into tumult, how could that be!!, look at those big beefy parts, a Dana axle is rated 1: 2.55, (or whatever) and so on.
Jack patiently went on to explain when asked why, Mercedes when bidding for the contract had to watch carefully for the dollar amounts, they could no afford to throw big chunks of steel lavishly, so everything was finely calculated and just a little overbuild was added to it.
And quoting him again, the whole package has been tremendously successful, look at all the trucks running for 30 and 40 years and no drive failures, off course the engineers at the time (early 50’s) never envision that their trucks 50 years later would be hot roding with 200 or 300HP engines.
It has been discussed before when having engine upgrades it is very important no to get a tire in a bind where it cant turn because that’s when things brake, as long as the tires are free they can take the extra HP as the extra power will dissipate spinning in the dirt or mud.
I has been discussed too when changing engines other than the M180 series to brace the engine likewise if not the new bell housing almost always brakes.
 

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Andrew - 2/9/2005 5:48 PM
It has been discussed before when having engine upgrades it is very important no to get a tire in a bind where it cant turn because that’s when things brake, as long as the tires are free they can take the extra HP as the extra power will dissipate spinning in the dirt or mud.
I has been discussed too when changing engines other than the M180 series to brace the engine likewise if not the new bell housing almost always brakes.
I can agree on this. In my search for a planned power upgrade i found the same warnings.

When going above 125Hp it seems the hubs will fail in heavy terrain when the wheels cant really spin. or when they can spin in "jumps" while climbing a hill on rocky surface. (trial of rockcrawling)

Also when mounting a "car" engine that fits use the original M180 sumb. its has those two rods between the sumb en bell housing. Very important! the M180 sumb can be machined for a M130 (2.8L). you need to make some clearance for the cranck. otherwise it fits with no problems i believe.

With encreased power and bigger wheels also keep in mind the increased heat in the gearbox when road driving. To much heat will block the gearing and make the backwheels stop instantly when driving 90km/hr. so you can understand thats not a fine thing on a highway.

About engines, i believe a M123 2.5L 6cilinder fits to. thats about 120 Hp to. The M130 ranges from 95 till 160Hp. The 160Hp version has the code M130.925... on the head. The M110 (2.8l injection) seems to be to wide for a 404 cab. it has the intake manifold on the drivers side and also the injectionpump. and on this side is the least space.

I had almost a 160Hp M130 last year, it got sold to another guy who bought a (passenger)car also to put it in.... :(

for 400€ not a bad sale if i had gotten it.

Now im planning on a turbo upgrade. i got the space to place it in, and a M180 is much cheaper and easyer to get as a M130/M110. I will run my rig on Liqified Propane Gas. maybe i will get hold on a M110 and rebuild it for a later swap.

Rgrds Ronald
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Thanks for the input fellers it is just what i was looking for. Information to tune the plan on paper before I dive in without a clear plan. The engine interchangability was of my largest concern, but that seems to not be a problem. My initial goal was around 160 HP and at least that in ftlbs. As all the good places to offroad are in the coast range, except NW Mogfest that is about 40 minutes away. This truck will see many daily driven miles as I do not believe in trailer queens, these are impressive trucks that deserve the attention they get everywhere they go. That reminds me the other day I stopped by a local mercedes mechanic and started to ask some questions about the mog, he just looked at me kinda down his snout like I was crazy for wanting to work on it by myself like a mercedes is only to be worked on by a mechanic. Is that what youse guys have run into?[:D]
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
Not alot of traffic here on page two, or page one for that matter. Every one must just accept that the first mogs were "substitute tractors" and not take any chances with them. I will be putting myself in harms way every time I go offroad. There are chances to break parts every time I get into the mog and turn the key, wether i go to home cheapo or into the forest. So if I bust something I must be trying hard enough. I would rather try something rather then just not and always wonder what would have happend. If we all just left our cars the same there wouldn't be an aftermarket to support us, JUST THE WAY THE ORIGINAL DESINGERS HAD BUILT THEM. The fact that the were desinged in the 1940's and 50's and still don't have many people utilizing the technology we have availible to us today, to me dosen't make much sense.

What if we had just left the little flathead four bangers in the duece coupe's and never took a chance? Who would remeber it? I want to leave a lasting impression on everyone that see's the mog. I want them to ask me questions about what has been done and not to just say "nothing the MB desingers did a good enough job back then."

When I get my crap togther and get the way I want it I will drive the wheels off it. On the street off the street and every where in between. If I break it, so be it there are replacement parts and if not thats what small blocks and Rockwells are for.
 
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