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Discussion Starter #1
Did anyone watch the last G.P. of Bahrain this last Sunday (4/3)? Pedro De LaRosa clearly demonstrated
that the BMW driven by Mark Webber was "Holding up" the McLaren. BMW was putting up a good fight for about a dozen laps but was finally passed on the long straight away. Top end speed was clearly in favor of the 824bhp. Merc engine. Awesome.. Ferrari-where are you?
 

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Haha! Yeah, I was watching it too. It is clear to me that McLaren has the best engine.
 

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Not to bash mercedes, but at least BMW actually builds their F1 engines. Merc's F1 engines are built by Illmor in Britain. The engine doesn't really have anything to do with Mercedes.

(Of course, I still love seeing that tri-star on the F1 steering wheel now that I own a Benz!)
 

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loveofdriving - 4/20/2005 9:22 PM

Not to bash mercedes, but at least BMW actually builds their F1 engines. Merc's F1 engines are built by Illmor in Britain. The engine doesn't really have anything to do with Mercedes.

(Of course, I still love seeing that tri-star on the F1 steering wheel now that I own a Benz!)
Most Benz's are built by Turks and Albanians etc. Does that mean you are driving a pile of East European equipment ?

Building is one thing ..... setting the requirement is another. You do of course realise that several ground breaking patents emerged from this development program and that small inovations like variable intake diameter (where the plenum chamber changes diameter and turbulence) are going to become part of the flagship engines in the near future. The idea is so advanced that it provides greater performance without using more fuel.
 

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I mean the whole design of the engine and everything. Mercedes doesn't just tell a bunch of Turks to build a nice car, they design it all themselves. Illmor is completely responsible for the design of the Benz F1 engine. Maybe they get some technical input from MB, but it's not the same as having MB design and build the engine themselves. If you look at Ferrari, Toyota, Honda, BMW - all of those companies have groups within their company that design and manufacture the F1 engines.

Of course, I guess all of this just comes down to Benz not actually owning Illmor or using Illmor engines in any street cars. If Benz owned Illmor, then it'd be more like Benz was building the engines.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Mercedes-Benz would not put their name on the car if it did not have a certain degree of input and affiliation. For your information, Mercedes Benz's head of factory motorsports division Norbert Haug has his own special team that work hand in hand with Mario Ilmour and his group. Yes, the engines are assembled and tested in the U.K. but parts are sourced from MBZ motorsports "AND" Ilmour. Design of powerplant is also a joint venture with MBZ who has a full time staff in the U.K. that work at Ilmour. Don't be fooled by the Ilmour name, MBZ has their hands in the whole engine program. Ron Dennis of McLaren has adressed these questions in 2001. I am sure not much has changed with regards to the engine program. The difference is that Ferrari, BMW and Honda design, test and assemble on site.
 

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It's Mario Illien (Paul Morgan is the mor in Ilmor). It's also Mercedes-Ilmor (which I didn't realize), so assuming everything else you said is true, I retract my statement [:)].

2 or 3 years ago when Mercedes was really sucking I thought it was Ilmor giving Mercedes a bad name. I guess I shouldn't have been letting Mercedes off the hook.
 

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I hate to admit it, but I still think BMW is the better engine this year. Let's face it, Ilmor hasn't particulary been known for their reliability in Formula 1. I used to blame them aswell! :) I do however regard the MP4/20 the better race car as a whole package compared to the Williams. And I do hope Mclaren-Mercedes have a shot at a win this weekend.

By the way, indeed it is 'Mercedes-Ilmor' nowadays. Mercedes hold 70% of Ilmor stakes. Check out their site, www.mercedes-ilmor.com. Apart from having a quite unique overall design, the 'History' sub contains some interesting historical facts.

Though it's a bit slow, I found this site worth the effort of exploring a bit. Always nice in these days of increasingly boring, undesigned, uncreative sites.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Thanks for your input Benzai.
Actually, Flavio Briatore and his Renault works team are proving us all wrong! (although Kimi was pulling a pretty good gap before the McLaren expired) The Renault powerplant CLEARLY is dominant at this point. The last 20 laps of the Italian G.P. at IMOLA showed the that the Reanualt was un-catchable even with Michael's BEST effort. He was trying everything he could, but just could not match the speed of the Spaniard in the Kick butt Renault! Very good race...
 

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I agree that it was an extremely good race, but the Ferrari did appear to be quicker than the Renault at the end. Michael caught up to Alonso very quickly - he just wan't able to make the pass.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Give me a break! Michael had plenty of oportunities to pass. He was not being "held up" in any way. If the Ferrari was quicker he would have been able to pass him on Imolas long straight. He was able to outbrake Alonso but ultimately was outgunned when powering out of the turns. The Ferrari was quicker than the Honda of Jensen Button, which was clearly demonstrated when Michael blasted by him in one of the quicker corners.
I would give him an A for effort though.. Do you know the reason behind Kimi's retirement?
 

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From Alonso in the post-race press conference: "I knew that Michael was more than one second faster than me so my only chance was to hold him up a little bit in the middle of the corners and then to be on the throttle a little bit earlier than him, just to have this little space for the straight and it worked well."

Don't know what happened to Kimi. He was goin fast though, so that's promising. It's gonna be an exciting season.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
The McLaren suffered from a failed C.V. coupling (half shaft). Probably from the pounding on those awfull curbs, although no one else had drive shaft problems?
 

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Discussion Starter #16
They say that the that the B.A.R. Honda motor is making some 970hp. the highest output in G.P. today!
That is truly impressive from a normal aspirated 3 Liter. The BAR. does not have the total package as displayed by McLaren and the Works Renault teams.
 

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You can't conclude that one F1 car has a stronger engine just because it passes another car. The acceleration and top end speed are determined by power, aerodynamics and gearing. Perhaps the BMW powered car was set up for more downforce, and thus had lower top end. Sometimes a weak chassis needs more downforce to get around competitively; and thus is lacks the top end speed. No fault of the engine.
 

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http://
I too lament the idea of Mercedes subbing out the F1 engine construction, the primary reason was to save money by MBZ not having to develop a whole infrastructure to build racing engines and cars, which we all know Mercedes is quite capable, that is the reason of Mercedes buying into Ilmore, just to give them a little more hump and get to the podium with a little more frequency, just recall the famous rivalry before WW2 between Mercedes and her nemesis Auto Union (Audi now) where they were reaching speeds of 250mph, quite remarkable for the 30's.

Not to change subjects, did anyone of you kept with Audi's intention to win at Le Mans race this year with a V12 diesel, a first, they will race at the 12 hours of Sebring next month, I intend to be there since I have been a great fan of Audi racing and the very successful R8, the only car to win the triple triple times and win Le mans in order1,2,3, their achievements are going to be very hard to break.

Click on the pics for better viewing of the car.

http://www.askaprice.com/torque-article.asp?article=Audi_shows_diesel_LeMans_R10_racer&item=775
 

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I am a big fan of Audi racing (and until recently was a long-term Audi owner). I miss the RS6s that used to run SpeedWorld Challenge (and that turned me on to Randy Pobst). And I think the R8 suffered from only one weakness -- the lack of factory-backed competition!

The R10 will be a real news-grabber; and if Audi is smart, they will turn it into diesel car sales.
 
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