[wlb50]

Been doing a lot of searching on this - I retrofitted the aluminum oiler tubes over a year ago and the car has been running fine.

Except on start up, when there is just a hint of knocking on one valve. It goes away after a minute or so, so I am thinking that it is a lifter that has leaked during the night. When that engine is warmed up, it is so quiet at idle it just purrs.

I'm using Mobil 1 10-40 (seems to be available only at Walmart for some reason. If that matters.

On the 300E and M103 I changed all the lifters which were in the rocker arms.

I am reading here that to access the lifters on the M119, the cams have to be removed.

So I am inclined to live with the occasional knock.

Any opinions? Any permanent harm being done?

 

[Poundy]

Not a noisy purge valve is it Bill?

 

[wlb50]

Not a noisy purge valve is it Bill?

Norman - I can't say. Have " assumed" that it is a lifter. It is not as pronounced as the time an oiler tube broke, but a quieter knocking - almost imperceptible but it is there - for about a minute or so. Seems to be on the right side of the engine - and the purge valve is in the oil filter housing?

I'll have to check - thanks!

Bill

 

[RKH]

The purge valve is in the driver side of the engine bay (not on the oil filter housing) and has a label MOT on it. It is suppose to 'tick' when it is working.

 

[aam]

Usually tapped noise on cold start is worn chain tensioner.
The spring gets weak, then the oil pressure takes over.

Get a stethoscope, as it can also mean, air pump, fan clutch, etc...

Regards,
aam.

 

[ou1954]

Cams

Been doing a lot of searching on this - I retrofitted the aluminum oiler tubes over a year ago and the car has been running fine.

Except on start up, when there is just a hint of knocking on one valve. It goes away after a minute or so, so I am thinking that it is a lifter that has leaked during the night. When that engine is warmed up, it is so quiet at idle it just purrs.

I'm using Mobil 1 10-40 (seems to be available only at Walmart for some reason. If that matters.

On the 300E and M103 I changed all the lifters which were in the rocker arms.

I am reading here that to access the lifters on the M119, the cams have to be removed.

So I am inclined to live with the occasional knock.

Any opinions? Any permanent harm being done?

Yup, heard the same thing. As for me I'm looking for a set of 16 new or used metal tubes and well as gaskets, chain guides, etc. Any leads for these items at a reasonable price would be much appreciated.

 

[wlb50]

Yup, heard the same thing. As for me I'm looking for a set of 16 new or used metal tubes and well as gaskets, chain guides, etc. Any leads for these items at a reasonable price would be much appreciated.

I don't know whether it is because I have changed the oil to M1 5W-30 from M1 10W-40 or I have been just driving it more but my lifter noise at start up has stopped.

As for the source of my oiler tubes I just went to a pick and pull - found a 92 or 93 E420 and pulled them off.

You have to be careful when pulling them off - carefully pry them off as the O-ring seems to help fuse to the head - I had gotten 15 off an old W140 and managed to break the 16th. With my practice done, I moved to the E420 :wink

There are 2 different sets of valve cover gaskets for the M119 - 1990-1995 MY and 1996-1998 - the difference is because of the switch to distributerless ignition.

Make sure you get the newer set for your '98.

 

[ou1954]

Model year design change

There are 2 different sets of valve cover gaskets for the M119 - 1990-1995 MY and 1996-1998 - the difference is because of the switch to distributerless ignition.

Make sure you get the newer set for your '98.

I understand. Wasn't exactly sure when that change came about but in any case I will trust the vendor on the right gasket.


Thanks

 

[ou1954]

One more thing . . . .

I understand. Wasn't exactly sure when that change came about but in any case I will trust the vendor on the right gasket.

Thanks

I'm about to plunge into this process and thanks for all the replies and also the link to a complete oiler tube change. Still looking for the best price on the tubes but it's a go.

If anyone can reflect on my final question it would be very helpful. I do have some experience with hydraulic lifters/tappets/whatever.

It seems to me that if something can be done in a more complicate way MB will choose that way. My experience goes as far back as the time Chevy oiled the lower rod ends by dipping the throws into the oil pan, and that's a long way. (May be a false memory but that's what I remember some 70 years later.)

Back to the question. It would seem that in my situation just one lifter is leaking down overnight and the others are holding. I would generally suspect that I have one lifter with a leak-down problem, but the postings on this thread all point towards a bad oiler tube and replacing the tube fixes the start-up noise problem.

Now we know that all lifters should retain their oil overnight unless there is a problem with the lifter itself. This should be the case when the engine is not running and after it has sat for some time. Why would a leaking/broken oiler tube cause a lifter to collapse over night?

All answers and thought greatly appreciated.

I did a quick check to see if my recollection of how the lifters work and came up with the following video:

and then on a discussion about repairing a bad lifter . . .

It deals with a defective or stuck lifter. Is there any easy way to differentiate a bad lifter problem from an oil tube problem?

Thanks again to this superb group.

D~

 

[wlb50]

I think the only reason for the oiler tubes is that in a Biblical term, the M117 begat the M119 - the M119 has the M117 SOHC block with a DOHC head. (Similar to the M103/M104 I6).

Since they obviously made no provision for another oil passage through the block to the intake cams the oiler tubes had to do.

Until you start pulling out the old plastic tubes you can't tell if the lifter noise is caused by the tubes and oil starvation or internally. In my case I saw an end of the tube bent ever so slightly allowing oil to escape out the back (and not into the lifter). But if you have the plastic tubes and the car has age and/or miles on them they are a good suspect.

I have seen new aftermarket tubes for sale on amazon - would cost about $400 in total - I'm told the plastic has been improved by the factory. Me, I like metal.

I got mine at Pick & Pull for $30 and ordered some new O-Rings so presumably I won't have to worry about it again.

Don't remember what your last question was. ^^^^^

 

[ou1954]

Leak Down or stuck lifter?

<snip>

Don't remember what your last question was. ^^^^^

The final question was actually the stuff in that post. That was answered in your response. More specific, "How do I know whether it's a leaking oil tube or a sticky lifter?"

I have since found and posted (below somewhere) some stuff on cleaning the hydraulic lifters but seriously don't want to have to pull the cam.

I since posted something on "Can I drive my car". Pretty scary stuff about putting transmission fluid in the engine.
Just can't understand why only one tappet would leak down overnight and the others don't. None are supplied with pressurized oil when the engine is not running. On the other hand, maybe they do sometimes leak down overnight but the oil pressure fills them up right away when you start the engine.

O.K. Folks, I will stop prolonging the agony for everyone but every clue turns up another possibility. If I can get the tubes I will open the system up and see what I can find.

 

[cliffyk]

Hydraulic lifters and lash adjusters get noisy for two reasons:

They are a) collapsed having been gummed/sludged up from too infrequent oil changes, generally combined with too frequent short trips; or b) bleeding down (collapsing) because of wear from high mileage and the silly 5W-xx oil recommendations intended to soften compliance with US CAFE and other nation's "fleet" fuel economy regulations.

In situation a)--gunk keeping the lifters/HLAs collapsed--they may "free up" when the engine warms, and multiple repeated oil changes, perhaps including engine "flushing" additives can break down enough of the gunk to make them once again behave. Though it may be that the gunk was all that was keeping them quiet and once that is gone situation b) raises it's ugly head.

In situation b)--no gunk just wear--heavier oil (which should have been used anyway had you had not swilled down too much of the 5W-xx koolaid) may quiet them down.

There are also numerous subtle permutations of a) and b) that can require double-teaming the challenge.

FWIW the WIS says the pre-'93 the M119 lifters had an anti-drainback ball valve, eliminated in the '93+ M119s--it probably wasn't a 100% needed thing as in a properly maintained engine they would "pump-up" quickly...

 

[ou1954]

Anti-drain valves

<snip>

FWIW the WIS says the pre-'93 the M119 lifters had an anti-drainback ball valve, eliminated in the '93+ M119s--it probably wasn't a 100% needed thing as in a properly maintained engine they would "pump-up" quickly...

Mine holds for some time. Maybe 1-3 hours, and pumps up in 10 minutes. This seems to say that some oil is available to that "bad" lifter, just not enough quick enough.

Good to see you back. See PM with details.

 

[ou1954]

Another experience report

Mine holds for some time. Maybe 1-3 hours, and pumps up in 10 minutes. This seems to say that some oil is available to that "bad" lifter, just not enough quick enough.

Good to see you back.

Another experience citation. Helps. Sort of. Maybe. Who knows. . . .

Clearly the only thing to do is have a look at the oiler tubes and replace chain guides at the same time.

K6JRF Auto Page

 

[cliffyk]

Mine holds for some time. Maybe 1-3 hours, and pumps up in 10 minutes. This seems to say that some oil is available to that "bad" lifter, just not enough quick enough.

Good to see you back. See PM with details.

I would guess it to be a sticking lifter, taking it's time to both bleed down and pump up--although my experience was that bad oiler tubes were not consistent in their message, "at first".

Once you get the valve covers of blown oiler tubes will be easy to spot, they are made with a pressed in (maybe cemented) plug at the exhaust valve end--it will most likely be missing. The good new is they the plastic cap is "digestible" by the engine, or at least seems to cause no major problems in the the pan. There are tiny bits of the left chain "guide" down in there as well and all has been well for over a year (just 4500 miles though).

I say chain "guides" because I don't know how much guiding a plastic thing that crumbles when you look at it could possibly be doing. Stuff rags down in to the timing cover all around them before attempting to remove same...

 

[ou1954]

Stuck lifter or no oil

I would guess it to be a sticking lifter, taking it's time to both bleed down and pump up--although my experience was that bad oiler tubes were not consistent in their message, "at first".

Once you get the valve covers off blown oiler tubes will be easy to spot, they are made with a pressed in (maybe cemented) plug at the exhaust valve end--it will most likely be missing. The good new is they the plastic cap is "digestible" by the engine, or at least seems to cause no major problems in the the pan. There are tiny bits of the left chain "guide" down in there as well and all has been well for over a year (just 4500 miles though).

I say chain "guides" because I don't know how much guiding a plastic thing that crumbles when you look at it could possibly be doing. Stuff rags down in to the timing cover all around them before attempting to remove same...

I guess I will find out. It's interesting that the one lifter (I'm sure it is only one from using a stethoscope to localize the noise) learned to be bad after just sitting overnight. No prior noise at all.

Anyhow I will know for sure in a couple of weeks. Going with used metal tubes.

About the chain guides. One piece or two on each side? Vendors can't tell me.

O.K folks, I'll actually stop now but report back when the job is done.

 

[wlb50]

I guess I will find out. It's interesting that the one lifter (I'm sure it is only one from using a stethoscope to localize the noise) learned to be bad after just sitting overnight. No prior noise at all.

Anyhow I will know for sure in a couple of weeks. Going with used metal tubes.

About the chain guides. One piece or two on each side? Vendors can't tell me.

O.K folks, I'll actually stop now but report back when the job is done.

If the noise eventually goes away most likely it is a bad lifter - a tube that is broken will never build up the pressure and the noise (at least in my experience) is constant. Mine was pretty loud, too

Those aren't really chain guides at the top of the chain - but a means to recirculate the oil at the top of the chain - it sends the oil back down and you have to replace those - because you have to remove the old ones and the plastic - well, I don't have to tell you about the plastic :wink

 

[cliffyk]

You need:

one of these (right side);

one of these (left side);

and
two of these (one on each side);

 

[ou1954]

Thanks, the folks at AZ were asked the same question, with the possibility of selling me the parts, but they failed. Your answer is greatly appreciated.

I did check the prices of lifters and a single one is affordable, but not a set.

Now, I may be stupid but I'm not crazy. My stupid questions:

1. I also came across some documentation saying the lifter check valves were removed in '93. To me, the check valves include those ball bearings. If that's true, how in the heck does a lifter become "stiff"?

2. Just which way does the oil flow in those tubes, and why not tubes for intake AND exhaust valve lifters?

 

[Pete S]

Just a throw in, when I swapped out my plastic oiler tubes for metal ones earlier this year I simply ordered everything from oediscountparts.com. The parts shown above, 32 o-rings, and both valve cover gaskets. Did some shopping around and at the time it was the cheapest place. If you need part numbers let me know.


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