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1981 Mercedes-Benz 300TD
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Discussion Starter #1 (Edited)
I'm going to have my injectors rebuilt soon or do it myself. I'd prefer to do it myself but don't want to drop the money on a pop tester that will be used once. I also don't want the added pressure of lapping the two halves of the injectors PERFECTLY. My injectors don't leak now so I would naturally assume lapping wont be needed. I can see why you may want to re-shim the injectors to balance them if your not installing new nozzles but I'm getting them new. So is lapping and balancing still necessary?

Also what's the best nozzle to get? I'm only running diesel, no wvo, and max performance (power) is important.


Cruise control question, I noticed the cruise control amps come in many different colors around the pins. What are the differences between each and who do I contact on here who repairs them? (I forgot his name)
 

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1984 300D
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yes, over time the individual Springs lose their tension at different rates.
In use Springs lose some of their tension.

Each Nozzle may or may not have the same dimensions on the parts that compress the Spring.
And, Bosch Nozzles may have different dimensions that other makes of Nozzles.
 

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Discussion Starter #3 (Edited)
Okay, I'll plan to have them balanced. Who here can balance injectors? I knew someone on here who said he could do it but I do not have his contact info. Do any of you know what the best nozzle to use is?
 

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Okay, I'll plan to have them balanced. Who here can balance injectors? I knew someone on here who said he could do it but I do not have his contact info. Do any of you know what the best nozzle to use is?
Since the Car was made Bosch has moved production of the Nozzles for the 616 and 617 Engines to India. The quality and longivity of them is suspect.
Indian Bosch Nozzles made in India only last X amount of miles post #3
Purchasing OM606.910 Injector Nozzles? - PeachParts Mercedes ShopForum

What is left are made in Germany Monark Nozzles or made in Italy Bosio Nozzles.

The Bosio Nozzles are about $48 each from Kermatdi.

The Monark Nozzles are around $25 each Mercedessource. The problem is that for the last year they sell out faster then they can keep them in stock.

Injector Nozzles Henzo
Injector nozzles - PeachParts Mercedes ShopForum


Due to the shortage of inexpensive Nozzles some members of another forum have tried Henzo Nozzles. But, they have not been in use enough to tell if they will be a good deal or not.
I Emailed Henso and ask where the Nozzles were made:
Henzo Dieselsend
Dear Mr. Innerbickler, thank you for your request. All DN0SD... pintle type nozzles that are branded 'HENZO' are manufactured in northern Italy, exclusively in one special factory. The factory provides a constantly high quality. The 'HENZO' brand is my own. I am at your service for further information, Henrik Raulefs DieselSend Marthastr. 48 20259 Hamburg Germany

One of the Members on the other Forum speculated that they were Bosio Nozzles made for Henzo simply because they were made in Italy.
I doubt that because the first time I rebuilt My Injectors I installed some brand X nozzles made by 7 Diesel. I was told by the Seller that 7 Diesel is in Italy.

This problem getting the Monark Nozzles has sort of defuncted the 2 Members on the other Forum that were rebuilding Injectors.

Another Member has stepped in to do the rebuilding but I do not even remember which forum it was.
 

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About 4+ months ago there was a thread about Injectors and 2 members of this forum bought rebuilt Injectors from the Company and they were rebuilt with Monark Nozzles.

However, while both recieved their orders inbetween the Company would not answer Emails.
I did not copy the name of the company so if someone wants it they will have to search.
 

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1981 Mercedes-Benz 300TD
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Discussion Starter #6 (Edited)
I'm not sure I'm understanding this ranking of nozzles. It seems many people don't like the Bosch nozzles because they are no longer made in Germany so quality is suspect. Now its between Monarks and Bosio. It looks like monarks were recently discontinued. In addition, I can not find a place to buy something other than Bosch or get them for under $45.00 per nozzle. I'm so tied of this nonsense... Still open to more information. Thanks
 

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I'm not sure I'm understanding this ranking of nozzles. It seems many people don't like the Bosch nozzles because they are no longer made in Germany so quality is suspect. Now its between Monarks and Bosio. It looks like monarks were recently discontinued. In addition, I can not find a place to buy something other than Bosch or get them for under $45.00 per nozzle. I'm so tied of this nonsense... Still open to more information. Thanks
Sounds like you undersand it to me.

The Injector Nozzle issue more pointly reflects the Replacement Parts quality issue with these Older Cars; the quality has been dropping.

To the best of My Knowledge they Monarks are not discontinued; unless you have spoken with Mercedessource and they said that. It is just that the supply is sort and the demand is high making for a sporadic supply of them.

"I'm so tied of this nonsense... " Ya, I can see the frustration.

Part of the problem is that here in the US Robert Bosch (that is the German one; there used to be an American Bosch also) has a Major grip on the US Fuel Injection Market. It is difficult to operate a Fuel Injection Shop here in the US without being a Bosch Certified Shop.

In Europe Diesels are in use for more types of Vehicles and othe applictions then here in the USA and there is a whole bunch of Companies making Injector Nozzles over there because the demand is greater.

So Bosch cannot be bothered with Making the Injetor Nozzles for the Older Vehicles and pawns them off to India. India makes them but the quailty seems sporadic and the cost did not go down either. The Bosch Nozzles for the 617s are $29-$48 from various internet Part Sellers.

You would think that this would open up the Market for the Monark Nozzles but the Monark Company is giving a big Yawn; apparently the market here is not large enough and they have no world wide network of Fuel Injection Shops to push their product.

When I worked in a Fuel Injection Shop back around 1975 Bosch would send my Boss a letter once and awhile asking Him why He was not buying as much of there stuff as they thought He should.

Anyway We are stuck with the way things are.

What I find odd is that 5 years ago there was at least 5 internet part Sellers selling Monark Injector Nozzles. All have gone out of business.

If a person intends to try to keep one of these Old Merceds on the Road you really have to work harder than you do with other Cars.
 

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1981 Mercedes-Benz 300TD
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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
I finally got rebuilt and well balanced injectors with Monark nozzles and installed them, the result?

First start, the engine clacked and clattered like CRAZY! It sounded like I fed rocks not to mention it chugged out CLOUDS of white smoke fumigating the entire garage; so I called it a night with plans for an Italian tune-up in the morning. Today I went for a drive, it smoked slightly less but still sounded like a rock crusher so I figured a heavy foot would solve that. Top end power feels about the same but I've definitely noticed FAR more torque especially from idle and the diesel knocking/chattering disappears above 2000 rpm so its very smooth sounding and vibrates less when cruising. During the drive there was no smoke and it quieted down a bit at idle. A cold start tomorrow will determine if the kayos has really ended.

After doing my second valve adjustment, noticing the starter always rhythmically skips (suddenly accelerates) over one cylinder and considering the injectors didn't smooth out my rocky idle, I think its pretty clear that one cylinder has low compression. :( I've done a 1 week MMO soak and have been running full synthetic oil for the past year making regular highway trips.
I feel like I'm simply out of luck short of a rebuild. Is this true?
 

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Takes a bit of time for everything to settle down - a bit of use will make 'em really good in a bit
 

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The where parts are made nonsense reminds of my grandmothers admonition before WWII that toys made by Japs were not allowed.
Bosch and others have quality control standards in place and parts made in India, China, Vietnam should be as good as in Germany.
Made in China can be as good as made in Japan or Germany.
Bosio is made in Italy, home of Fiat.
Does that make a difference?
 

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The where parts are made nonsense reminds of my grandmothers admonition before WWII that toys made by Japs were not allowed.
Bosch and others have quality control standards in place and parts made in India, China, Vietnam should be as good as in Germany.
Made in China can be as good as made in Japan or Germany.
Bosio is made in Italy, home of Fiat.
Does that make a difference?
If you include the Mercedes Benze Club of America there is at least 5 Mercedes Forums that I know of and likely some other less known in the USA like Ozbenz.

Do some reading on the Indian Made Bosch Nozzles and you will see that so far they have had a some what poor record for passing the Pop Test right out of the box and a poor record for longivity.
To me this is just a known fact.

Then on top of that until Mercedessource raised the Price on the made in Germany Monark Nozzles the Bosc Nozzles actually cost more.
I think the Monark Nozzles are still about $2 cheaper.

Also on top of that the Monark Nozzles do not have the tiny central drilled hole in the Pintel that in time can plug solidy with Carbon. Even the German and French Made Nozzles had that possible issue.
In fact in the Mercedes Service Manual there is a note that after certain date the increased the diameter of that tiny drilled passage. I am assuming that was done in an attempt to keep it from plugging up.

If you use the Bosch Nozzles with the tiney drilled Passage I think you really need to do perodic Diesel Purges in order to keep the pasage from plugging.
 

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The where parts are made nonsense reminds of my grandmothers admonition before WWII that toys made by Japs were not allowed.
Bosch and others have quality control standards in place and parts made in India, China, Vietnam should be as good as in Germany.
Made in China can be as good as made in Japan or Germany.
Bosio is made in Italy, home of Fiat.
Does that make a difference?
I remember and have personal experience in the early 1960s when Japanese made where cheap and also would break in normal use.
Of course all that changed pretty quick.

I don't know why the Indian Mad Bosch Nozzles have the issues they do. Over on another forum about 5 Years ago there was some People who were asking for the defective made in India Nozzles as they claimed they were going look into manufacturing a version here in the US.

Apparently they never did that but one of the things they said was that they believed the Nozzle parts were improperly hardened.

Not Nozzles but this is another example. Not far from My House is an Industrial Hardware Store. This also sells all kinds of Nuts and Bolts and all grades of Bolts. You can by one or by the hundreds in Boxes.

This is a place where you can get a grade 8 Bolt with 4 inch diameter threaded end.
A lot of their stuff comes from China.

One of the Customers who evidently owned a Business with Earth Moving Equipment was talking to the Store Owner. He said He would buy a Chinese made Bolt of the correct grade and in a month or 2 that Bolt would fail. If He bought a USA made Blot it would last several years before it failed.

I have USA made Tools and Chinese made Tools and I also have Metal Things that are made in China. A lot of them have been improperly hardened or there is some issue with the Alloy they were made of or both.

As a quick example I find that Chinese Drill Bits are brittle compared to US or Japanese ones.
Here is one that bugs me. I have a US made Black & Decker Hole Saw Set and I needed new Mandrel for it. When I went to the store I fond the Black & Decker Hole Saw stuff was made in China.
I bought it any way and when I got home I found that it would not fit My US made Hole Saws???
My guess is that Black & Decker stopped making the Hole Saws and simply bought what was being made in China and packaged it themselves.

I took the Mandrel Back. Emailed a nice letter to Black & Decker. And, went to Harbor Freight and got a Complete set of Chinese Hole saws. Why bother buying from an American Company to get a Chinese product and paying more for it.
 

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To answer the original question, I would think it is mandatory to pop test and balance injectors with new nozzles. When I tested mine recently (see post) I was surprised how much difference (100 psi) a seemingly inconsequential 4 mil shim (0.1 mm) made. Typical machining accuracy is ~1 mil, so hard to see how new nozzles couldn't be slightly different lengths, plus your original nozzles might have varied in length and most likely had different thickness washers installed at the factory.

I would be surprised if Black & Decker made anything themselves today. The idea of a brand is that the tradesman certifies the product meets their personal standards, even if they didn't make it themself. Eventually, Chinese companies will develop highly regarded brands, as the Japanese and Koreans did. Until then, they have little incentive to produce quality products. In the case of brittle drill bits, the problem is they hardened the entire piece. Ideally, only the surface would be hardened, leaving a tough inner material resistant to shattering. I wonder why nobody in the U.S. has taken on making new nozzles. With so many hobbyists and small companies having CNC machines, it wouldn't be hard to handle small volumes. But the labor would still be enough to make it hard to profit. I would think re-machining existing nozzles would be easier and cheaper. Seems you mainly need to shape and polish the tip to make a big difference. The problem then is that you have to deal with getting cores or having customers wait, and the more they fuss the less somebody would want to fool with it. But, we have no fussy diesel owners here, do we?
 

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Diesel Giant pop test using Bosio:
They have Bosio for $45 each.
MSource sells only a 617 kit including pop tester and 5 Monark for $340.
Monarks are in demand but no supply.
I suspect much of DIY tip replacement problems are related to improper preparation.
Bosio and Monark are touted for a better spray pattern.
No test to back up the claims.
Fuel Injectors
 

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I would say my 84 & 85 300D's both sound as quiet or quieter than the 2nd clip w/ Bosio nozzles. Mine both have the original Bosch nozzles as best I know. Except, I recall the 85's file (from PO) showed one injector replaced and I found one had a much thinner washer thickness when I balanced them (though popped at same 1900 psi). I haven't touched my 84's injectors yet.

Still, I would like a quieter engine. My wife won't even drive the 300D's because "people will look at me!". I try telling her they are just interested to see a now-classic M-B. It would be nice if the engines could be made as smooth as new "common rail" diesels, or responded to the throttle with the same instant vroom-vroom of a modern MPFI gas engine, instead of the slight "dead zone" I have in both. The secret of newer diesels is tapering the injection via electronic controls rather than the sudden squirt when a poppet opens. The later requires a pre-chamber in cars to decrease the noise. I guess nobody ever figured how to make a poppet design that meters the spray in smoother. I expect that requires >10,000 psi to get an initial low flow (build cylinder pressure gradually) while still atomizing the fuel instead of streamers. Perhaps the upside is that our simple engines may still be rattling along when the high-tech common-rail engine controls have failed and cost too much to repair. I know my paint looks better than some 2000+ cars (flaking off in sheets).
 

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"Still, I would like a quieter engine."
MSO2, Liqui Moly Amazon, 1.2 tubes per oil change.
Eliminates much of the diesel clatter.
Common rail HD truck diesel injection pressure is about 35k lbs.
617 has a prechamber.
Ignition is affected by diesel fuel cetane number.
USA minimum is 40, oil companies say they provide 45.
California is high test at 53 for less C and NOx.
 

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The where parts are made nonsense reminds of my grandmothers admonition before WWII that toys made by Japs were not allowed.
Bosch and others have quality control standards in place and parts made in India, China, Vietnam should be as good as in Germany.
Made in China can be as good as made in Japan or Germany.
Bosio is made in Italy, home of Fiat.
Does that make a difference?
Yes -- it does make a difference unfortunately. In an ideal world, the parent company who is offshoring will go to their new factory in that country and set up their manufacturing processes and quality control systems and ensure the locals follow them, and at the end of the day they (hopefully) make a product equivalent to the parent company's homeland factories. I am not speaking idly here either as I have worked for European and American manufacturing companies for decades and am an engineer.

In reality, the parent company follows that roadmap, but there is an implicit assumption that the locals will not cut corners once the parent company's engineers have gone back home and no one is watching closely.. The reality in China is that they too often do cut corners!! This is not an idle rant from a China-hater -- I actually admire their people and culture. This is a dark side to their culture that bothers many of them too. But if you watch the news carefully, you can see FAR TOO MANY stories from multiple companies of quality screw-ups in China. Google it. The Chinese govt has gone so far as to execute some Chinese factory managers for big embarrassing screw-ups like putting toxic chemicals in dog food.

These are not innocent mistakes either.. One European company I work with professionally bought some high dollar product from China, sent their inspectors there to check it out before it was shipped, put their stamp of approval on it, and then after the inspectors left, the locals proceeded to adulterate the product to save money....
 

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That "rock crusher" sound will die down around after 200- 500 miles. Those injectors are balanced within 25 PSI +/-, which is 100% better than FSM. So, after 500 miles, let me know how they are working out.
 

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Discussion Starter #19
I just got back form a road trip and the injectors are breaking in nicely. The loud clatter and smoke is gone and it sounds smooth like in the video above. I do still have a lumpy idle however, after swapping in a set of used injectors, then the new set from Greazzer following an accurate valve adjustment, it seems the only conclusion I can draw is one cylinder is significantly low on compression relative to the others.
 

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Bosch injectors are made in India.
Bosch - Injectors
Bosch common rail injector tests.
Would be good if they sampled not common rail.
http://www.searchautoparts.com/news-distribution/bosch-testing-reveals-hazards-some-diesel-fuel-injectors
Most on this site don't remember that much of Made in the USA was of poor quality up to VW and Honda. One of the reasons jobs left the USA. Unfortunately GM was bailed out of their incompetence.
Poor manufacturing quality causes jobs to move to a better manufacturing base and that is currently SE Asia. AUS is loosing both GM and Ford.
I would have no reservation buying new Bosch but would want them pop tested.
Mine are Monark tips and pop tested by a Bosch dealer.
 
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