[mkaresh]

I've heard so many horror stories about Mercedes reliability, and CR has of course not been kind.

But how large is the difference between Mercedes and competing vehicles, really?

I suspect that the difference, on average, is less than many people think. There's not much distance between CR's dots--about 0.03 problems per car for a 2006 model--and forums like this one make problems seem much more common than they actually are.

In late 2005 I started conducting my own reliability research. I'm reporting absolute stats like "times in the shop" that will make the differences between cars much clearer. Relative ratings obscure too much--how large is the difference between "better than average" and "worse than average"? I’ll also be updating results four times a year, so there will be information on new models sooner.

I'd like to provide this information on Mercedes models, but so far too few owners have signed up. I have far more owners for competing makes.

To encourage participation, panel members will receive full access to the results free of charge.

Details: Vehicle reliability research

Comments, questions, and suggestions welcome.

 

[Jayhawk]

If you're seriously looking for an answer to your question--and not just trying to start trouble--do a SEARCH! There are thousands of posts on the subject.

 

[mkaresh]

Did you read more than the title?

I'm trying to provide some real information, so people can stop starting so many inconclusive threads on the subject.

Good sig.

 

[Jayhawk]

Did you read more than the title?

I'm trying to provide some real information, so people can stop starting so many inconclusive threads on the subject.

Good sig.

Well, I'm sure we are all indebted to you, but why don't you just do a search? It's no accident that no one is jumping into this thread. I am just trying to do you a favor too...

 

[asianml]

Well, I'm sure we are all indebted to you, but why don't you just do a search? It's no accident that no one is jumping into this thread. I am just trying to do you a favor too...

Try visiting his website. A post search won't do him any good. He wants Mercedes owners to sign up on his site and personally enter info on his site so he can gather this information for us. Think of it as Edmunds.com on a smaller more personal scale.

 

[Peter Guenther]

To help you.
My 85 300TDT gave me the least problems
My 89 560 SEConly gave me problems wih the the injectors and rough idling, never could fix it
MY 89 ha an AC issue they could never fixit, the sales manager took it home, and had it happend, the teutonic broad at MB aid it was 3 months beyond waranty, altho they worked on it during warranty
MY 92 500 SEL has had evey isue but a fun ride, avaporator , Bose, close pumps etc. I dont know why my wife loves it.
My 98 ML was the worst piece of crap I ever purchased, locks belts, fuel pump, squekks,
My 01 E wagon has been respectable, minor issues but good
MY dealer experiences continue to be downgraded, the mechanics find things to replace to supplement their income.
I will probably not purchase another MB product because the ROI is not worth the investment.
I have driven multiple Grand Marquis as my company cars, and my wife had had multiple El Dorados, I have real problems with $100K for a new S. The dealers have an attitude, I really like the new Lexus. When you exmine the options, buy a high line american car and get rid of it when the warranty expires, unless you buy an extended, and then get rid of it. My 01 wagon has a 8 year 100 K if it gives me issues I will dump it, loyalty means nothing.

 

[cmitch]

People expect more out of a Mercedes than they do an average car because they cost so much more. For instance, a Dodge truck that runs like shit but is, otherwise, reliable will be viewed as a 'decent' vehicle. Buy a Mercedes that has the same problem, it's a piece of sh^t. That being said, they are much less reliable than the '80's and early '90's models, which were built like tanks. If my friend ever decides to get rid of his 91 300SE SWB sedan, I'm snatching it up because it is a beautiful car and drives like a dream.

 

[Jayhawk]

Try visiting his website. A post search won't do him any good. He wants Mercedes owners to sign up on his site and personally enter info on his site so he can gather this information for us. Think of it as Edmunds.com on a smaller more personal scale.

He could fill his site many times over w/ a search of just my past posts on the subject, if he really wanted to. He should have at least started w/ a search and said so.

 

[asianml]

He could fill his site many times over w/ a search of just my past posts on the subject, if he really wanted to. He should have at least started w/ a search and said so.

Have you looked over his site yet? The point of it is for you to enter the data yourself on there.

 

[Jayhawk]

Have you looked over his site yet? The point of it is for you to enter the data yourself on there.

That is lazy x2. He's too lazy to do a search and too lazy to enter the information himself. Don't you wish you could go through school that way? Just let other people do your homework for you!

 

[asianml]

That is lazy x2. He's too lazy to do a search and too lazy to enter the information himself. Don't you wish you could go through school that way? Just let other people do your homework for you!

You didn't visit the website, did you? It's your car, you enter the information. Simple as that. He can't possibly know every single detail about your car, but you do! Many posts don't tell the whole story, mostly a shortened version for easier understanding and easier reading, so he wouldn't be getting the whole thing most of the time. His site also does surveys, which he certainly can't do on your behalf.

 

[Jayhawk]

You didn't visit the website, did you? It's your car, you enter the information. Simple as that. He can't possibly know every single detail about your car, but you do! Many posts don't tell the whole story, mostly a shortened version for easier understanding and easier reading, so he wouldn't be getting the whole thing most of the time. His site also does surveys, which he certainly can't do on your behalf.

He should have you do them for him...

 

[lovemyc280]

He could fill his site many times over w/ a search of just my past posts on the subject, if he really wanted to. He should have at least started w/ a search and said so.

Just don't read the thread if you are not interested. Those who would like to contribute should be able to without having to read your crap.

 

[mkaresh]

I'm sorry for all the confusion.

This is real research. The goal is to be able to say, "The average Mercedes X-Class requires about 1.2 repair trips per year, while the average Competitor Y requires 0.9 repair trips per year. So the Mercedes requires about one extra repair trip every three years." People can then more easily decide if the advantages of the Mercedes outweigh this disadvantage.

Right now, there's no way to make such a clear comparison. As a result, it's very possible that people overestimate how many repairs they'll have with a Mercedes. Everyone is of course aware of CR's take on Mercedes reliability. What few people realize is that the differences between CR's dots for a 2006 model year car is about 0.03 problems per car. That's about one extra problem for every 30 cars.

For the results of my research to be valid, it's as important to know how many cars have not had problems as how many cars have. The problem with gauging reliability from forums is that there's no way to tell how many cars are not having problems. Also, people with problems are much more likely to post here.

To provide the most valid possible results, my research process only collects data on repairs that haven't happened yet (with the exception of the first month). So people sign up, and afterwards report repairs when they happen.

If there are no repairs, participants simply provide an approximate odometer reading at the end of every quarter. That's how I know the total number of cars to include in the analysis.

Currently over 11,000 people have joined, with over 14,000 cars. The problem is that only a few hundred of these are Mercedes.

As stated in the OP, everyone who helps out will get full access to the results for free.

 

[Jayhawk]

I'm sorry for all the confusion.

This is real research. The goal is to be able to say, "The average Mercedes X-Class requires about 1.2 repair trips per year, while the average Competitor Y requires 0.9 repair trips per year. So the Mercedes requires about one extra repair trip every three years." People can then more easily decide if the advantages of the Mercedes outweigh this disadvantage.

Right now, there's no way to make such a clear comparison. As a result, it's very possible that people overestimate how many repairs they'll have with a Mercedes. Everyone is of course aware of CR's take on Mercedes reliability. What few people realize is that the differences between CR's dots for a 2006 model year car is about 0.03 problems per car. That's about one extra problem for every 30 cars.

For the results of my research to be valid, it's as important to know how many cars have not had problems as how many cars have. The problem with gauging reliability from forums is that there's no way to tell how many cars are not having problems. Also, people with problems are much more likely to post here.

To provide the most valid possible results, my research process only collects data on repairs that haven't happened yet (with the exception of the first month). So people sign up, and afterwards report repairs when they happen.

If there are no repairs, participants simply provide an approximate odometer reading at the end of every quarter. That's how I know the total number of cars to include in the analysis.

Currently over 11,000 people have joined, with over 14,000 cars. The problem is that only a few hundred of these are Mercedes.

As stated in the OP, everyone who helps out will get full access to the results for free.

Thanks for the additional info on your research methodology. It alleviates a few of my concerns, but by no means makes me believe your results will be valid, in the way you think they will. You are correct in noting that "people with problems are much more likely to post here," so your sample-selection procedure begins w/ a negative bias built in. And the idea that only reporting on "new problems" will somehow improve reporting reliability is just plain wrong. I don't believe that anyone who is satisfied or completely satisfied w/ their automobiles will ever take the time or trouble to get involved in "research" like this. You will primarily attract people who are angry and/or people w/ agendas of one sort or another. I have seen CR's methodology and it is not only flawed but biased against certain cars. I believe your results will be even more subject to collection and reporting problems than is theirs.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to trouble-shoot your methodology here, but I have grave concerns about what you are doing and question why you are doing it. I am a research scientist and have seen too many of these well-intentioned (I'm assuming your motivation is honest and sincere) studies used and misused by naive people and those w/ agendas, and I see no controls in yours that gives me confidence this will not happen here.

I admit I have not spent a lot of time on your site, but I am curious about a couple of things: Who is sponsoring your "research?" What exactly do you plan to do w/ the data? What are your credentials for designing and conducting this research?

 

[mkaresh]

Credentials: Ph.D. in sociology from University of Chicago, which includes a lot of training in survey research; while there spent five years working at the National Opinion Research Center, a leader in the field.

Your concerns:

Most people who participate consistently participate, whether or not they've had problems.

Unless people check in at the end of the quarter, their responses earlier in the quarter are excluded from the analysis.

When people have gaps in their responses, I follow-up to fill the gaps. This affects only a couple dozen of the couple thousand people who've been responding, about one percent. Only 20-30% of participants report any problems in their first six months of participation.

Your concerns make sense, but the actual data demonstrate that they aren't actually problems.

Revenue:

Not much right now. Eventually there will be two ways to gain access to the results: participate in the research or pay a membership fee. Right now only the first is available. I feel this is a very fair way to structure the research, since those who want others to do all the work will enable those who do the work to get the results for free. With CR, you pay just as much even if you take the time to fill out their surveys.

 

[asianml]

I want to join, but the only thing holding me back is the requirement of entering the license number. I have to get that permission from the parents, which is unlikely.

 

[mkaresh]

Just enter 99 for the license plate. This is what most people do, usually because they can't remember the number.

I ask for the license plate because some people are very suspicious of others and suggested that I need a way to verify that cars actually exist.

If responses for a model ever seem suspicious I reserve the right to request the plate number so I can verify that a car exists. But I have not had to do this yet, and it's not likely to happen in the future.

I ask for the license plate and not the VIN because few people are going to take the time to look up their VIN, and it's much easier to remember a plate than a VIN.

 

[Jayhawk]

Credentials: Ph.D. in sociology from University of Chicago, which includes a lot of training in survey research; while there spent five years working at the National Opinion Research Center, a leader in the field.

Your concerns:

Most people who participate consistently participate, whether or not they've had problems.

Unless people check in at the end of the quarter, their responses earlier in the quarter are excluded from the analysis.

When people have gaps in their responses, I follow-up to fill the gaps. This affects only a couple dozen of the couple thousand people who've been responding, about one percent. Only 20-30% of participants report any problems in their first six months of participation.

Your concerns make sense, but the actual data demonstrate that they aren't actually problems.

Revenue:

Not much right now. Eventually there will be two ways to gain access to the results: participate in the research or pay a membership fee. Right now only the first is available. I feel this is a very fair way to structure the research, since those who want others to do all the work will enable those who do the work to get the results for free. With CR, you pay just as much even if you take the time to fill out their surveys.

Thanks for that info! It helps to some extent, but as you probably know better than I, survey research is notoriously unreliable. But I wish you well anyway, and hope you are very successful and make lots of money! We social scientists don't do either very often.

And I won't be participating since I have had no problems to speak of w/ my automobile.

 

[mkaresh]

Your choice whether or not to participate.

As I'm sure your recognize, every car is equally important, since the goal is to have a representative sample.

There are certainly challenges to survey research. But I've designed this research to overcome these challenges as much as possible. My sample sizes are currently small, yet the results have a great deal of face validity (i.e. they make sense).

Most recent results:

TrueDelta Vehicle Reliability Survey results

Next update will be mid-week.

I doubt it'll make much money. Hoping it'll eventually make enough to get my wife off my back. She's not crazy about the current income/time spent ratio. I believe that if I focus on providing the best possible information, the rest will take care of itself.