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Discussion Starter #1
Hey all, I screwed up and need some help from the experts.

2006 E320 CDI, 232,000 miles, runs great - until recently.

Diagnosed no too long ago with the black death. Injectors #2 and #6 leaking, #2 the worst of the them, the others seem ok. The car ran nearly flawlessly despite the problem. The dealer wanted $6k to replace all 6 injectors, citing that they're all old, worn and need to be replaced - not going to happen, especially since the car ran nearly flawlessly.

I decline and have them put it back together and start researching alternatives to the dealer and new injectors. It seems that a $.30 copper seal at the bottom of the injector is the culprit, hardly worth $6k if I can get that seal replaced.

I order up 6 seals, 6 new injector clamp bolts and the ceramic grease and after much reading and research, I feel like I'm ready to go after it.

I take all the precautions, chipping away and vacuuming up the black tar, disconnect the injector wire plug, remove the fuel overflow lines, pull the glow plug on the opposite side and extract the injector while blowing compressed air into the glow plug port, clean up the injector and seal, clean up the area around the injector hole and smooth the sealing surface for the copper washer.

I only worked on #2 , putting #6 off until later.

Sure enough, I can see the leak path between the copper seal and the mating surface on the head.

Everything goes back in ok, but it does not start. Just cranks and cranks, tried it 2 dozen times. I could see needing a few cranks to bleed the air, but I'm way past that.

The puzzling thing to me is that it never even sputtered or fired, just cranked 100% - not even a hint of starting. The other 5 cylinders weren't touched and it seems like if I screwed up the #2 injector or its wires or something, at least the others would have fired, or tried to.

I did disconnect the injector connector plug to #1 to get it out of the way while I pulled the #2 injector, but it seemed to clip right back in without any issue.

My first question is, did I trip a fault code of some sort that would prevent it from starting?

I'm totally stumped and my car is out of commission. I'll tow it up to the dealer and fess up to my incompetence if I have to, but if there's something that I overlooked, I'd like to get her running on my own, if I can.

Any and all suggestions and comments are welcome. Please ask about anything pertinent I haven't addressed.

Thanks,
Pete
 

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E320/E250 Bluetec Ford F350 6.7l
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Even this is your first post, sounds like you are DIY who is not afraid to take even difficult task.
I've been doing impossibles my whole life, so sounds like friendly soul ;)
So coming to the problem, I have newer paid a shop to do the repair and in your shoes I would rather spend $280 on advanced scanner than pay for towing and diagnosis, what likely will get the same numbers.
There are 2 highly recommended scanners but would have to dig the models on the forum.
Other than that, backtrack your steps and think what you could disconnect in the process.
Good luck.
 

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Almost seems like you've got a connector off some place that you may have missed. The no fire is no fuel. It'll fart after that much cranking just from residual heat if there's fuel. Xentry/DAS system would be nice right now, got my Chinese one recently and love it. Sorry--

Check the cheap things first, see if you've got fuel at the filter with the key on run, the nob on the top of the filter is a bleeder. turn on the key and very SLOWLY open the bleeder knob and if you've got fuel up that far, it'll spray everywhere if you open it too far. You're correct, it will self bleed rather nicely. I've put a dry filter on and it fired and ran instantly without even a miss. Sadly, you're going to have to jack it in to the matrix and see what codes it throwing.

Good luck!!
 

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2005 E320 CDI, 2007 S550, 2016 E250
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Are there any CEL? Sounds like there is air somewhere in the line that can't be removed and the car is not starting because of that. This is just a guess. I would try and manually bleed the lines first as said above and start it. I have a W163 and did injector bushings. When I put it back together it started but now I have to let the fuel pump run for a sec before starting. It's because there is air in the line. They are supposed to self purge but that is not always the case. Also check ALL the connectors and make sure everything is back together. Make sure all hoses have been reconnected too.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
update

OK, long night last night. Not in any better condition functionally, but I do have a better understanding...

I did some more research to find that there are fuel pressure sensors that govern whether or not the computer will allow the injectors to fire. An open flow of fuel through an injector into the return line can drop the pressure enough prevent start. I may not have all that right, but it's my general understanding. Given that it never even sputtered, it seemed to me to be very likely I had a pressure problem as a result of the work I had done on this injector.

After giving up and putting up this post, I went to clean up the table where I had been cleaning the injector, that I did not mention that I had to take apart to pull it out of the head. I found a small metal ring sitting on the table that I researched to find was the upper shim for the injector solenoid spring. It had fallen out and was so small I hadn't seen it.

Thinking, AHA!, I went back out and pulled the injector again and took it apart to install the shim.

Backtracking a bit, when I first disassembled the injector top, there were 5 pieces that were inside there: Spring, a washer ring, a round disc with a recessed cross pattern on the top and a stem on the bottom, a round disc with a hole to accept the stem from the other piece and underneath a very, very small round metal piece with a small recess on one end. (later I learned it is 6 pieces counting the upper shim).

When I say small, I mean this thing is small - about 2mm dia and the 2mm length - tiny. When I first noticed it, it was sitting loose in the hex recess of the injector body and was only revealed when all of the other pieces had been removed.

It was not immediately obvious where this thing goes, though it is exactly sized to fit into the disc hole that the piece with the stem fits through. My best guess was that it goes in the bottom of there. I didn't know whether to point the recess in this tiny piece up or down in that hole when I re-assembled it. I chose down.

So here's what I don't know:
- If there were other tiny pieces in there that I never noticed and now are hopelessly lost.
- Whether that tiny cylinder points up or down.
- Whether that tiny cylinder goes where I put it or not.
- Whether the washer ring goes above or below the disc (though from the wear patterns, it seems like above to me.

In any case, none of that matters now, because after putting the shim back in and reinstalled it only to come to the same result - no fire.

I took it back apart one more time to see if re-arranging the tiny piece the other way would help only to find that tiny piece was broken it two. Clearly something was wrong as it got pummeled and broken by the stem when it was pushed down by the solenoid Oh well, I condsider the injector to be a loss now.

So I have a rebuilt injector on order and at least I know that it will have been put together properly. I'll try to pull the other injector without taking the head off or at least try to take more care to observe the disassembly order.

In any case, there were some questions asked that I wanted to answer:
Kajtek1, I'll get the scan tool necessary if may latest plan of replacing the inejctor doesn't pan out. I've gone through everything I did several times, I'm comfortable that I got it all hooked back up properly, excepting the insides of this injector, of course. I'm no pro, but this isn't my first go round fixing stuff, and thank you for your kind support. I lived out your way for about 5 years, btw. In Stockton until fall of 13. This was a California & Nevada car for many years.

markg612, I do have fuel pressure at the filter, as evidenced by the geyser of fuel it produced when I loosened it too much. My engine compartment now has a nice, stinky sheen to it. ugh.

boardboy330, I can't tell on the CEL, though I'm certain it must have a code by now. Because the light normally comes on with the ignition key stays on until it's running, I can't tell because it never started running. I don't have the scan equipment, but I'll get it if I need to, though by then I'll probably surrender to the dealer or an indy to save me.

Does anybody know if the new injector profile needs to be programmed into the computer?
 

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Discussion Starter #7
obd scan

I hooked up the OBD2 and saw exactly what I wanted to see: One and only one fault code - fuel rail pressure too low. This confirms to me that replacing that injector will get her back up and running.

I should have the injector by Monday at the latest. I'll update the outcome.

Thanks again to all.
 

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I hooked up the OBD2 and saw exactly what I wanted to see: One and only one fault code - fuel rail pressure too low. This confirms to me that replacing that injector will get her back up and running.

I should have the injector by Monday at the latest. I'll update the outcome.

Thanks again to all.
Did you end up finding an injector with the same IMA coding?
 

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It was not immediately obvious where this thing goes, though it is exactly sized to fit into the disc hole that the piece with the stem fits through. My best guess was that it goes in the bottom of there. I didn't know whether to point the recess in this tiny piece up or down in that hole when I re-assembled it. I chose down.

So here's what I don't know:
- If there were other tiny pieces in there that I never noticed and now are hopelessly lost.
- Whether that tiny cylinder points up or down.
- Whether that tiny cylinder goes where I put it or not.
- Whether the washer ring goes above or below the disc (though from the wear patterns, it seems like above to me.
Here is the thread from Finnish MB forum with couple of pics, try to figure them out...
Mersuforum.net ? katso viestiketjua - CDI suuttimen korjaus. (purkukuvia ja ohjeita lisätty 6.2)

Just remember there are slightly different versions of injectors according the age/generation so some parts may be slightly different...

I have disassembled many of these injectors myself (many years ago), but I cannot recall which side the recess of the ball comes. What I remember, it won't work if its wrong direction...

Hope you get it sorted!
 

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Discussion Starter #11
I don't know about the codes. I just went to the dealer and ordered what they prescribed from my VIN. It was $540.

I do know now that there is a very VERY small ball bearing that belongs in the tiny recess in the small cylinder piece I ended up breaking. I never even saw it. In any case, it's not going to be an issue any more - I won't be taking apart the new injector and will find a way to pull the others without removing the solenoid off first.

Yes, very expensive lesson, BUT, the dealer wanted way more than that to fix it for me.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Update

Ok, good news and super bad news.
I got the new injector from the dealer today and got it installed tonight. Cranked it for a few seconds and it fired right up. Thrilled!

Feeling very satisfied that I figured this whole thing out and solved it fairly economically, I felt confident to go on and replace the seal on number 6. I started pulling things apart and when I pulled out the 6mm bolt holding down the injector retainer block it broke off about 1 inch or so down - the most of the threaded shank is still stuck down in the engine head locked in place no doubt by the hardened black death.

&@&$!$!!

My only thought is a fairly desperate one: the engine does start and run. I plan to let it idle and heat up fully and hopefully t
urn the black death into soft goo and then try to go to work on the bolt shaft with an ez out bolt extractor. It's going to be tough without any head on the bolt but I'm at a loss for any other ideas.

Anyone know what to do here?
 

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Tough to advice without looking at it, you don't want to make too many mistakes with the engine head.
However, here are some general comments:
1- check the hardness of the M6 bolt, a quick way is to run a brand new razor blade on it and see how deep it cuts.
If soft, drill the sunken M6 in the middle with a 1/8th bit then warm up your engine then try an extractor
2- If the M6 is hardened, try a dremel carbide drill, this will take a while but it works
3- If it does not come out, drill it out completely and you will probably have to go to a Helicoil to repair the site.
If there is room, you can drill and tap a M8 but that generally complicates things because of compromised wall strength and attachment provisions on the adaptor.
These bolts are installed with thread adhesive(add to that the black goo), applying heat will help but be mindful of the melting point of Aluminum
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I'm going to try the drill and extractor, if that doesn't work then drill and tap to 8 mm.

by biggest concern right now is heating up the engine. right now the injector seems to be locked in there pretty good - so seems the hold down clamp. the engine runs and it stays in place, I almost got it to full temp just idling last night before shutting it off for the night while I came up with a solid plan.

idle seemed ok, but I won't dare rev it because I'm afraid it will blow out of there. who knows, as it heats, the goo softens and things expand it may blow out at idle anyhow. I do have the seal leak that caused all this in the first place to my advantage - it is relieving some of the cylinder pressure.

anyway, I feel like I've got one shot at the extractor because I'm sure the clamp piece is helping hold the injector in. I can let it idle and heat, then pluck off the clamp to expose the bolt stem and go to work on it. My fear is it takes too long to get to where I can start applying torque and it will have cooled too much. There's no putting that clamp back on. maybe the injector itself would hold, maybe not.

has anyone ever done this where they've run the engine to heat things without it clamped in? it ran for about 30 minutes last night and didn't seem an issue, but I only got it to about 75c, not 90c which is full temp.


does anyone know the proximity to this bolt hole of the cooling lines? it seems to me that the bolt shank in there, while not protruding past the surface is fairly close. I feel like I could bore out some of the head around the shank down far enough to maybe get some vice grips on and try to turn. I don't want to hit a cooling line and wreck that head if it can still be saved.

ugh, I'm just sick about this. if I get this resolved, I'm definitely running it to full temp and replacing the other seals one by one. I don't ever want this experience again.

thanks all.
 

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Stretch bolts are usually hardened, I think...

Water jacket is very close to bottom of the hole, because many have protruded gunge in bottom of the hole to the water jacket when tightening new bolt...

You'll need long tools to operate the hole/thread
 

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Been there, done that

and that is why I made topic with WARNING in the title.
For drilling the bolt out you might want to remove valve cover.
Retaping to bigger diameter will loose the required torque, so if retaping to original size will not work -time sert is other opiton.
Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter #18
Update

OK, I know it's been a while, but here is the latest...

I decided I was too chicken$%&@ of all of it a couple weeks back and called my local indie to come pick it up and bail me out. In turn, they passed on the job recommending the local dealer.

I took it to the local dealer who, after sitting on it for 10 days, also opted to pass on the work saying they weren't properly equipped to handle it. They referred to to a local machine shop they knew that could help.

I called the machine shop to talk with them and they said they could get it out not problem, but the head would need to be off to do it. Otherwise, they could do the whole job, but it would take several weeks and cost a tremendous amount of money for removal/reinstall of the head.

Not willing to go to the huge expense and undertaking of removing the head, I had it brought back to the farm where I'm going to take a crack at it myself.

What's the worst that could happen, after all? It is useless to me the way it is, someone else wants thousands to fix it and if I ruin the head, it will cost thousands to fix it. I'm really losing nothing by trying it myself.

I took the broken off bolt head and tried some experimental washer/nut welding onto it to see if that is an option. I'm simply not a good enough welder to make that happen properly. Though it seemed to be bonded, it simply broke right off. Welding on a hex nut is out.

I have in my possession several devices that I think offer me 3 opportunities to solve this problem.

First, I have a set of LH cobalt drill bits and matching bolt extractors (#1 thru #5 ). I could center punch the end of that bolt shank and get started with the oil and drill bit to try the extractor(s). Given the amount of hardened tar goo down the bolt hole for inejctor #1 , I simply don't see this thing giving up any ground at all without being heated up thoroughly - which may be an option. My biggest fear here is that I break off the extractor inside the bolt shank and now I've got super hard steel in the way of proceeding with options 2 or 3.

Second, I have 3/16" (4.76mm) cobalt drill bits that I could use to bore out the core of the bolt shank leaving behind the threads that could be chased out using a 6x1.0 thread tap. I'm worried about concentricity to the bolt shank here.

Third is what I believe may be the best overall option - 1/4" (6.35mm) cobalt drill bits to bore out the entire bolt shank and some of the aluminum head and then re-tap at 8mm, taking care not to go too deep so as to cause other issues. Also worried about concentricity here. I'll have to ream out the hole on the retainer bracket for the larger bolt, but this seems simple.

I have a couple of things on my side:

1. The car does start and run, though I only dare let it idle. That injector is only held in with the hardened tar and while I want it to soften to make my life easier, I do not want it blowing out of there causing yet more damage. As I've said before, I've had it 3/4 of the way to full temp before I backed off and shut it down.

2. The black tar has effectively cemented the injector retainer in place, despite no longer being held down by the bolt.
This is a curse and a plus:
A curse because I cannot see the end of the bolt shank directly without plucking the retainer off of there.
A plus because while the retainer bracket is sitting stuck in that goo, it is giving me 2 benefits: First, it is helping hold in the injector should I try to fully heat the engine at idle; Second, sitting where it is, it would nicely serve as a pilot guide for the 1/4" drill bit for option #3 , above. Once I pry it off of there, however, there is no putting it back in place and the plus factors are lost thus I want to save this for a later option.

If all of this fails or I otherwise cause other damage to the head, I'll consider taking (or having someone take) it off of the engine and go from there.

I'd love any and all thoughts you may have...

Thanks again.
 

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OK, I know it's been a while, but here is the latest...

I decided I was too chicken$%&@ of all of it a couple weeks back and called my local indie to come pick it up and bail me out. In turn, they passed on the job recommending the local dealer.

I took it to the local dealer who, after sitting on it for 10 days, also opted to pass on the work saying they weren't properly equipped to handle it. They referred to to a local machine shop they knew that could help.

I called the machine shop to talk with them and they said they could get it out not problem, but the head would need to be off to do it. Otherwise, they could do the whole job, but it would take several weeks and cost a tremendous amount of money for removal/reinstall of the head.

Not willing to go to the huge expense and undertaking of removing the head, I had it brought back to the farm where I'm going to take a crack at it myself.

What's the worst that could happen, after all? It is useless to me the way it is, someone else wants thousands to fix it and if I ruin the head, it will cost thousands to fix it. I'm really losing nothing by trying it myself.

I took the broken off bolt head and tried some experimental washer/nut welding onto it to see if that is an option. I'm simply not a good enough welder to make that happen properly. Though it seemed to be bonded, it simply broke right off. Welding on a hex nut is out.

I have in my possession several devices that I think offer me 3 opportunities to solve this problem.

First, I have a set of LH cobalt drill bits and matching bolt extractors (#1 thru #5 ). I could center punch the end of that bolt shank and get started with the oil and drill bit to try the extractor(s). Given the amount of hardened tar goo down the bolt hole for inejctor #1 , I simply don't see this thing giving up any ground at all without being heated up thoroughly - which may be an option. My biggest fear here is that I break off the extractor inside the bolt shank and now I've got super hard steel in the way of proceeding with options 2 or 3.

Second, I have 3/16" (4.76mm) cobalt drill bits that I could use to bore out the core of the bolt shank leaving behind the threads that could be chased out using a 6x1.0 thread tap. I'm worried about concentricity to the bolt shank here.

Third is what I believe may be the best overall option - 1/4" (6.35mm) cobalt drill bits to bore out the entire bolt shank and some of the aluminum head and then re-tap at 8mm, taking care not to go too deep so as to cause other issues. Also worried about concentricity here. I'll have to ream out the hole on the retainer bracket for the larger bolt, but this seems simple.

I have a couple of things on my side:

1. The car does start and run, though I only dare let it idle. That injector is only held in with the hardened tar and while I want it to soften to make my life easier, I do not want it blowing out of there causing yet more damage. As I've said before, I've had it 3/4 of the way to full temp before I backed off and shut it down.

2. The black tar has effectively cemented the injector retainer in place, despite no longer being held down by the bolt.
This is a curse and a plus:
A curse because I cannot see the end of the bolt shank directly without plucking the retainer off of there.
A plus because while the retainer bracket is sitting stuck in that goo, it is giving me 2 benefits: First, it is helping hold in the injector should I try to fully heat the engine at idle; Second, sitting where it is, it would nicely serve as a pilot guide for the 1/4" drill bit for option #3 , above. Once I pry it off of there, however, there is no putting it back in place and the plus factors are lost thus I want to save this for a later option.

If all of this fails or I otherwise cause other damage to the head, I'll consider taking (or having someone take) it off of the engine and go from there.

I'd love any and all thoughts you may have...

Thanks again.


If it were mine, I would gently remove the injector(with proper slide hammer, and fork attachment), remove the injector hold down clamp, and thoroughly clean the black goo out of the area. Perhaps a heat gun could help here. From what I understand you have an inch or so of stud sticking out of the head right?

If so, I would heat the area with a heat gun, apply plenty of penetrating lubricant that would hopefully work it's way down and assist in lubricating/breaking up the black goo on the threads. Doing that followed by an external stud remover like this:


or, :


FACOM Stud Extractor,Cam/Roller,8mm,1/2 in Dr - Screw/Bolt Extractors and Nut Splitters - 36T852|FA-287B.8 - Grainger Industrial Supply



Maybe a battery powered impact driver with the stud extractor with it's hammering action would loosen the bolt and it would come out? If all that fails, I would then move on to drilling the remaining stud incrementally until the tension releases-hopefully just before you get into the aluminum head material.
 

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Discussion Starter #20
nothing to grab

Nope, nothing sticking out of the head whatsoever. In fact I think to of the shank is below the top surface of the head.
 
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