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The evidence from NPR is that more than one woman had consensual sex with the tom cat, which he's acknowledged. Those women "felt" as though they had to for their jobs, or at least that's what they're saying, which the cat has denied. Now, tell me, who has to prove it? What kind of real evidence should be presented? I'd think it would go much deeper than just the allegations.

Don't know, but I'm willing to look at all of the evidence with an open mind, keeping the burden of proof where it belongs. How about you?
You're asking GT to go where he is unwilling since he doesn't seen interested in the concept of how the burden of proof and expectations of consequences are radically different, depending on whether you're talking about being disqualified for a job because of public opinion, being made to pay damages in a civil lawsuit, or being convicted of a crime and sentenced to prison. Every case is different and must be judged on its own merit and the evidence available. The most fundamental fact of the U.S. criminal justice system is that the legal burden belongs to the prosecution to prove guilt beyond reasonable doubt and the accused is not required to prove innocence. Refusing to accept this pretty much disqualifies you from the discussion as a serious participant.

With the several examples of alleged harassment at NPR, so far the accused have only lost their jobs. This is fine with me. If public opinion sides with the accusers, then their jobs are gone and that's it. This is also true of most of the politicians who have been accused. They've been forced to resign by their own parties and, in one case, lost an election that they would have certainly won had not public opinion gone against them because of the allegations. If the allegations against the President become too much of a scandal for him (or his party) then he can resign. But legally forcing him out is not likely to be easy. He'd have to be impeached and that then becomes a totally different standard - a guilty vote by 2/3 of the Senate that crimes were committed.

There are some facing lawsuits. Since these are civil and not criminal cases, the burden of proof is only preponderance of evidence. Whichever side is more credible, will likely win.

But if some of these incidents turn out to be over criminal sex crimes, then the opinion of ignorant Americans who assume the accused is guilty and is required to prove themselves innocent in court, becomes a force to swing the pendulum too far in the direction of uncritical belief in the accusers.
 

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i'm not sure what the difference is

between women complaining about men at the office and those assuming they are guilty of a crime-

than businesses letting go of an employee because they have evidence the employee is harassing employees
and those assuming they have been convicted of a crime-

both sides of the argument in this thread are drawing the same conclusion yet accusing the other side of it.

the victims can take their accusers to court or the accusers can take the victims to court and then guilt can be derived.

neither the accusers or the businesses actions equate to "innocent until proven guilty"- they are not courts of law, they are merely avoiding lawsuits around safe working environment issues.

The victim in the bill o'reilly case was his employer who paid the fine.

have any of the accused brought lawsuits against the accusers? or vice versa?

or do they sue the business that is responsible for the workplace?
 

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Another one goes down without a fight. Must be a new development...


Alex Kozinski, a distinguished federal appeals court judge, announced his retirement Monday, effective immediately, after sexual misconduct allegations continued to dog the once-respected justice.

In a statement released by his attorney, the 67-year-old Kozinski partially apologized for his behavior but also tried to frame parts of it as a misunderstanding.

"I've always had a broad sense of humor and a candid way of speaking to both male and female law clerks alike. In doing so, I may not have been mindful enough of the special challenges and pressures that women face in the workplace. It grieves me to learn that I caused any of my clerks to feel uncomfortable; this was never my intent," he wrote.

"For that, I sincerely apologize," he added.

The judge's career, which includes 32 years on the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals, appears to have been undone over 10 days, as 15 women continued to step forward with personal accounts of Kozinski allegedly making explicit remarks about them, exposing them to pornography or touching them inappropriately.

Accounts from a combination of former female clerks and junior staffers about the abuses by Kozinski were first reported by The Washington Post. They subsequently led to a formal inquiry by the 9th Circuit — later reassigned to the 2nd Circuit. It is unclear what will happen with the investigation.

Kozinski expressed regret over leaving the bench under the current circumstances, writing:

"Family and friends have urged me to stay on at least long enough to defend myself. But I cannot be an effective judge and simultaneously fight this battle. Nor would such a battle be good for my beloved federal judiciary."


He's probably innocent, I mean where's the hard proof, eh?


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Probably nothing happened. We have no hard evidence presented to us, what are we gonna do?


Longtime WNYC radio hosts Leonard Lopate and Jonathan Schwartz are the latest media figures to be fired from their positions after an investigation into allegations of inappropriate behavior, station owner New York Public Radio announced Thursday.

“New York Public Radio has terminated the employment of Leonard Lopate and Jonathan Schwartz following two separate investigations overseen by outside counsel,” spokeswoman Jennifer Houlihan Roussel said in a statement.

Both men had been on suspension since earlier this month after accusations of their misconduct came to the station’s attention. NYPR did not provide specifics about the behavior in question.

“These investigations found that each individual had violated our standards for providing an inclusive, appropriate, and respectful work environment,” Roussel said. “In each investigation, an outside investigator interviewed multiple witnesses as well as Lopate and Schwartz.”

Lopate, 77, who for over three decades has hosted a weekday talk show named for him, previously said he was shocked by the accusations.

“I have done nothing wrong, and I am really sad that my reputation may be damaged, despite the fact that I have not done anything that I know of that could have led to this situation,” Lopate said in an interview with WNYC News earlier this month.

NYPR said in its statement that the recent investigation was not the first time it has had to look into Lopate’s behavior. It conducted a previous inquiry in February after he allegedly made “inappropriate remarks” to his staff. That investigation resulted in a warning and one-on-one anti-harassment training for him.

Complaints against Schwartz, 79, host of “The Jonathan Channel” and a music program on weekends, date back to November, NYPR said. He has also faced previous disciplinary action for his behavior.

Their accusations follow those against former WNYC host John Hockenberry, 61, who was accused earlier this month of bullying and sexually harassing women throughout a long career at the station, which ended in August.

Several other media figures have lost their positions in recent months after facing allegations of sexual misconduct, including Minnesota Public Radio’s Garrison Keillor and NPR’s Michael Oreskes and David Sweeney, CBS’ Charlie Rose and NBC’s Matt Lauer and Mark Halperin.
 

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#metoo rolls another one...





The Associated Press has reported allegations of sexual assault against the famed conductor Charles Dutoit made by four women, in incidents that span from 1985 to 2010 and that took place in five different U.S. cities.

After the AP published its report Thursday, six major American orchestras with decades-long ties to Dutoit — the Philadelphia Orchestra, the Boston Symphony Orchestra, the New York Philharmonic, the Chicago Symphony Orchestra, the Cleveland Orchestra and the San Francisco Symphony — hastily issued separate statements that distanced the respective institutions from the conductor to varying degrees.

The alleged victims include one world-famous vocalist, the Grammy winning-soprano Sylvia McNair. Now 61, McNair told the AP that Dutoit "tried to have his way" with her after a rehearsal at the Minnesota Orchestra in 1985, when she was 28 years old.

Paula Rasmussen, a former professional mezzo-soprano, alleges that Dutoit assaulted her in his dressing room at the Los Angeles Opera in September 1991.

The other two accusers chose to remain anonymous, due to Dutoit's still-significant power within the classical music world.

One of those women, an anonymous soprano, claims that Dutoit assaulted her three times in 2006, at the Saratoga Performing Arts Center in Saratoga Springs, N.Y., and again in Philadelphia, in 2010.

The fourth accuser was 24 years old at the time of her alleged assault. She was a musician at the Civic Orchestra of Chicago, a "training" orchestra for emerging professional players associated with the Chicago Symphony Orchestra (CSO), when Dutoit came to the city as a guest conductor of the CSO. She says he invited her to a lunch originally scheduled at a restaurant but then changed, at Dutoit's request, to his hotel suite at the Four Seasons, where he tried to force himself on her. In a series of emails the conductor allegedly sent to her afterwards, he wrote that he did not know that "that an affectionate hug and kiss could have such a negative effect," but that "of course, I forgot you are still a child."


Those women probably didn't get the diva treatment at the time and are now, years later, extracting revenge by publicly announcing they were sexually abused.

I mean, the extremes that women will go to in order to blemish someone's impeccable reputation.


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i'm not sure what the difference is

between women complaining about men at the office and those assuming they are guilty of a crime-

than businesses letting go of an employee because they have evidence the employee is harassing employees
and those assuming they have been convicted of a crime-

both sides of the argument in this thread are drawing the same conclusion yet accusing the other side of it.

the victims can take their accusers to court or the accusers can take the victims to court and then guilt can be derived.

neither the accusers or the businesses actions equate to "innocent until proven guilty"- they are not courts of law, they are merely avoiding lawsuits around safe working environment issues.

The victim in the bill o'reilly case was his employer who paid the fine.

have any of the accused brought lawsuits against the accusers? or vice versa?

or do they sue the business that is responsible for the workplace?
That seems disingenuous. Only one side is drawing conclusion. Only one side is equating mild offense with class 1 felony. Only one side is unconcerned with the veracity of accusation. Read GT's editorializing the following posts. He's like a child, anyone not in 100% lockstep with his extremist views deserves his scorn. I say patting someone on the behind isn't rape, he can't help but mock that position (remind you of anyone? GT is also a BIG twitter fan).

In regard to veracity, was every woman who accused the SNL guy of public groping legit? I don't know. The first 2-3 were, then it started getting a little shaky for me. Same with AL pedophile accusation. First women seemed legit, but were any of the later additions DNC plants, just piling on for effect? Dunno. Not sure it matters. I do know that Franken was railroaded by his own party. He welcomed an open ethics investigation, and that should have happened. And it appears a PBS journalist may have been treated poorly for dating employees who weren't subsequently promoted. Maybe he deserved his fate, maybe he didn't. It doesn't matter. He has money, and he was accused, so off with his head.

There is a range of behavior here, it isn't all the same, and all perps do not automatically deserve the same fate. That is the position I have been clearly enunciating, and the position GT has been vehemently railing against. I doubt he'll learn the wisdom of moderation and measure anytime soon.
 

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And of course we all know we are talking about all these men in this thread innocently patting booties, nothing more serious than that.

But I'm an extremist child that keeps missing when liars keep moving the posts.

What a bunch of geniuses...
 

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And of course we all know we are talking about all these men in this thread innocently patting booties, nothing more serious than that.

But I'm an extremist child that keeps missing when liars keep moving the posts.

What a bunch of geniuses...
No, we're not talking about all these men. Most have admitted their transgressions, or at least some of their transgressions. That's a movement of the goal posts that you've made. The discussion started from an example in which the individual denied wrongdoing, and the discussion has been on where the burden of proof is and whether that pendulum might be swinging too far if that burden of proof falls to the accused. There may well be evidence the gentleman did, in fact, take job actions on his prey based on whether or not they had sex with him, but he may not have. That's all it is.

There's nothing absolute about an accusation.
 

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No, we're not talking about all these men. Most have admitted their transgressions, or at least some of their transgressions. That's a movement of the goal posts that you've made.

That I've made?

Wait, I know a guy...


Only one side is drawing conclusion. Only one side is equating mild offense with class 1 felony. Only one side is unconcerned with the veracity of accusation. Read GT's editorializing the following posts. He's like a child, anyone not in 100% lockstep with his extremist views deserves his scorn. I say patting someone on the behind isn't rape, he can't help but mock that position (remind you of anyone? GT is also a BIG twitter fan).

Btw, I like twitter ergo I love Trump. I think.

Here's to more stupidity coming down the pipe...
 

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Yes, you moved the goal posts. An example was cited, speculation added, a question/discussion about that pendulum began, and you keep tossing examples of guys who've admitted guilt up to somehow substantiate a conclusion of guilt on the example and associate our "open mindedness" on the example and on the speculative examples with a defense of those who've admitted guilt.

He isn't saying you like Trump, he's saying your approach and tactics are similar.
 

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That seems disingenuous. Only one side is drawing conclusion. Only one side is equating mild offense with class 1 felony. Only one side is unconcerned with the veracity of accusation. Read GT's editorializing the following posts. He's like a child, anyone not in 100% lockstep with his extremist views deserves his scorn. I say patting someone on the behind isn't rape, he can't help but mock that position (remind you of anyone? GT is also a BIG twitter fan).

In regard to veracity, was every woman who accused the SNL guy of public groping legit? I don't know. The first 2-3 were, then it started getting a little shaky for me. Same with AL pedophile accusation. First women seemed legit, but were any of the later additions DNC plants, just piling on for effect? Dunno. Not sure it matters. I do know that Franken was railroaded by his own party. He welcomed an open ethics investigation, and that should have happened. And it appears a PBS journalist may have been treated poorly for dating employees who weren't subsequently promoted. Maybe he deserved his fate, maybe he didn't. It doesn't matter. He has money, and he was accused, so off with his head.

There is a range of behavior here, it isn't all the same, and all perps do not automatically deserve the same fate. That is the position I have been clearly enunciating, and the position GT has been vehemently railing against. I doubt he'll learn the wisdom of moderation and measure anytime soon.


I get all the variables in the individual cases and whether the accused did what he is accused of...

my point is that those that were fired or let go because of accusation were done so

because those employers had enough evidence those employees could make the employers liable for hostile workplace lawsuits-

a very different charge than rape, etc...

in those cases, the accuser is not threatening the accused, they are threatening their employer.

the snl guy, trump, cosby, clinton... those guys are the CEO of their companies

and therefore the accusers are accusing both the company and the accused

(but if there were no rich company, its doubtful they would bother making the accusation)

in most of the cases under discussion, the accused are businesses for workplace harassment not the accused sex offender.

that's my point.
 

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Former Trump campaign manager Corey Lewandowski accused of sexual misconduct


Singer-songwriter Joy Villa has accused Corey Lewandowski, President Donald Trump's former campaign manager, of sexual misconduct. Villa said Lewandowski slapped her on the butt during a holiday party at the Trump International Hotel in Washington, DC last month.

Villa's allegations, outlined in a Politico report published Friday night, said that Lewandowski slapped Villa on the butt a second time after she protested the unwanted gesture and threatened to report him. "Go ahead, I work in the private sector,” Lewandowski replied according to Villa. “It was completely demeaning and shocking,” she said.

Villa may be best-known for wearing a gown emblazoned with the Trump campaign slogan, "Make America Great Again" at the Grammy Awards in February.

Lewandowski made headlines in March 2016 when he was charged with misdemeanor battery related to an incident in which he was accused of manhandling former Breitbart reporter Michelle Fields.



 

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The fact that Villa -obviously a huge MAGA supporter- is now part of the #metoo movement speaks volumes.


And it was just a pat... a pat, people! Those don't count, amirite?
 

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I get all the variables in the individual cases and whether the accused did what he is accused of...

my point is that those that were fired or let go because of accusation were done so

because those employers had enough evidence those employees could make the employers liable for hostile workplace lawsuits-

a very different charge than rape, etc...

in those cases, the accuser is not threatening the accused, they are threatening their employer.

the snl guy, trump, cosby, clinton... those guys are the CEO of their companies

and therefore the accusers are accusing both the company and the accused

(but if there were no rich company, its doubtful they would bother making the accusation)

in most of the cases under discussion, the accused are businesses for workplace harassment not the accused sex offender.

that's my point.
The case central to the GT tantrum, which led to his ridiculous 'prove your innocence in court' meme is Tavis Smiley, a freelancer who owns his own company. PBS terminated their relationship, and was not under threat of lawsuit. I understand your point, and there is certainly some truth to it, but believe public pressure is also a strong motivator here, just as much of America was whipped into 'let's murder brown people' furor after 9-11. And in some cases, there may be other motivating factors.

Tavis Smiley's poisonous partnership with PBS - Chicago Tribune

I was actually impacted to some small degree by a sexual harassment case roughly 25 years ago, The manager of another branch office was abruptly terminated. It was a small shop, with Neal (the manager), his wife Pamela, and the overtly out-of-the-closet gay Richard manning the office, and 3-4 guys back in the warehouse. Story I got later was that one of the warehouse staff was suing for harassment. Apparently, Neal was in the habit of teasing and ribbing the guy about being gay, and unlike Richard, who had a keen wit and dry sense of humor, this fellow did not appreciate it one iota. So Neal was abruptly terminated, and I assume some small payout was made, though that is speculation. Neal's wife continued to work there for many years.
 
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