yeh for $15 grand I could buy a nice running W140 S600, and a parts car to go with it...
they want that much for their scanner.
handheld scan tool for engine/trans 1994 s600 does one exist ?
21 - 40 of 42 Posts
they want that much for their scanner.
You could change\removal the limiter if somehow found the relevant hex values in the ECU EPROM to do so.
Ive had my car upto 240kph and it wasn't what i would call stable, certainly wouldn't try it again, it was under sprung\dampened, no steering feedback and too heavy to safety drive that fast on anything but a perfect straight and smooth road.
Not sure on the EGR, my car doesn't have one.
Ive had my car upto 240kph and it wasn't what i would call stable, certainly wouldn't try it again, it was under sprung\dampened, no steering feedback and too heavy to safety drive that fast on anything but a perfect straight and smooth road.
Not sure on the EGR, my car doesn't have one.
EGR is easy to disconnect, just pull the vacuum hose off the valve and block the hose with a screw or BB, I believe it's located under the throttle body. on American cars it will put on the CEL in the dash, and store 2 codes. the better programming laptop systems can go in and shut off the codes and CEL. we've been disconnecting the stuff since the 1970's and the cars always run better, with more part throttle response. the downside is slightly less fuel mileage in some cases, but not much maybe 1-2 mpg. most EGR's are programmed to shut off at wide open throttle, so it's only a part throttle emission device. if the EGR opens at idle, it'll stall the car. be thankful your car doesn't have one.
in regards to top end speed, when I was in my 20's and youthful reckless, I flatboarded my 1970 Firebird one night on I-81, it had a 160mph speedometer- it climbed to 120 pretty quickly, then slowly to 140mph. I had hand rebuilt that original motor from bare block and wanted to wring it out just once, it would have buried it, was still pulling. at that speed it got a bit scary, I let off. not something I want to do again on a public highway, ever. the roads are just too bad and ununpredictable. on a track with a helmet, harness, rollcage, maybe.
in regards to top end speed, when I was in my 20's and youthful reckless, I flatboarded my 1970 Firebird one night on I-81, it had a 160mph speedometer- it climbed to 120 pretty quickly, then slowly to 140mph. I had hand rebuilt that original motor from bare block and wanted to wring it out just once, it would have buried it, was still pulling. at that speed it got a bit scary, I let off. not something I want to do again on a public highway, ever. the roads are just too bad and ununpredictable. on a track with a helmet, harness, rollcage, maybe.
I called Snap-On tech line again, they told me specific cartridges used on the MT2500 scanner, the ubiquitous "red brick" that was in use for 20 years, from approx. 1980-2005. got into their old application charts and it breaks down like this:
engine- read/clear codes, live data, test sensors
transmission- read/clear codes, live data, will not test sensors
airbags- read/clear codes only
climate control- read/clear codes only
that's it.
coverage for most other M-B models by Snap-On, for new and old cars, is much more broad.
I read a few other threads here on the MT2500, one guy summed it up like this:
it's like getting one page, of a 100 page book. or maybe even a 1,000 page book.
but it's better than nothing I guess, if the car has an engine/trans drivability problem.
you can at least hopefully see O2 sensor voltages, TPS, MAF, MAP, MAT/IAT, coolant temp, closed/open loop status. those are the key inputs, in my experience. if it's an issue in the CAN bus interface/communication between modules, then you're screwed :laugh
the latest new 2019 Snap-On high end, high dollar scanners will only read what the old MT2500 did, for a W140. the application guide chart reads identical, engine-trans-airbags-climate control. the best one can expect with the OBD2 to 38 pin cable adapter, is just that.
engine- read/clear codes, live data, test sensors
transmission- read/clear codes, live data, will not test sensors
airbags- read/clear codes only
climate control- read/clear codes only
that's it.
coverage for most other M-B models by Snap-On, for new and old cars, is much more broad.
I read a few other threads here on the MT2500, one guy summed it up like this:
it's like getting one page, of a 100 page book. or maybe even a 1,000 page book.
but it's better than nothing I guess, if the car has an engine/trans drivability problem.
you can at least hopefully see O2 sensor voltages, TPS, MAF, MAP, MAT/IAT, coolant temp, closed/open loop status. those are the key inputs, in my experience. if it's an issue in the CAN bus interface/communication between modules, then you're screwed :laugh
the latest new 2019 Snap-On high end, high dollar scanners will only read what the old MT2500 did, for a W140. the application guide chart reads identical, engine-trans-airbags-climate control. the best one can expect with the OBD2 to 38 pin cable adapter, is just that.
Sounds pretty much the same features as the scanners ive used, although the Hanatech did have a number of HVAC test functions.
It's certainly one of the reasons these cars aren't very popular. You are probably like me and bought the car mainly for the V12, they are a very nice engine once they are running well.
It's certainly one of the reasons these cars aren't very popular. You are probably like me and bought the car mainly for the V12, they are a very nice engine once they are running well.
it was an offer I could not refuse, the engine alone is worth what I paid for the entire car, and it ran with no knocks, or valvetrain noise. it can be fixed up, and relatively cheaply too, time is more a factor for me, than cost. it still needs some basics like tires. it's not a basket case. I have pics but they're in my phone, eventually will get them posted.
93 SL500, 95 SL320, 96 S320, 98 S500, 2002 E320 4Matic Wagon & A little 91 5.0 FORD Mustang
Joined
·
8,408 Posts
Hey 1994 welcome to the forum, and thank you for your two threads.
On the tranny side, sadly their are really no computer data stream for the transmission for anything regarding performance codes(or data) like the next generation transmission(722.6 transmission).
Up until 1995 these V8 and V12 have the "old school" tranny that is vacuum controlled with "brake bands" like most of the Chevy Truck line-up(past and Present). The Inline 6 W140's still used the "old School" tranny up until 96.
Brake band trannies just are less efficient and run hotter, so their life is compromised due to the floating(rubbing) brake bands, Yet no brake bands exist on the 722.6.The average user of a 722.6 will get two to three times mechanical life over a 722.3-722.5.
If you love your V12(like most owners), You can convert the old school car to use a 722.6 like the Diesel W126 owners have done so. Here is a thought on how to do it:
https://www.500eboard.co/forums/ind...-automatic-transmission-into-w124-e500e.7995/
https://www.benzworld.org/forums/w126-s-se-sec-sel-sd/2999869-transmission-options.html
Too much dough into a tranny. You can rebuild a 722.3 for about $700 using Mercedes Frictions which are thicker and better quality over any aftermarket, but Mercedes brake bands will set you back an additional $500 where aftermarket bands are about $100 for both bands..
Here is the info on how to rebuild a 722.3-722.5
https://www.benzworld.org/forums/w140-s-class/2635370-gearbox-722-368-repair-manual-tips.html
Hope it helps,
Martin
On the tranny side, sadly their are really no computer data stream for the transmission for anything regarding performance codes(or data) like the next generation transmission(722.6 transmission).
Up until 1995 these V8 and V12 have the "old school" tranny that is vacuum controlled with "brake bands" like most of the Chevy Truck line-up(past and Present). The Inline 6 W140's still used the "old School" tranny up until 96.
Brake band trannies just are less efficient and run hotter, so their life is compromised due to the floating(rubbing) brake bands, Yet no brake bands exist on the 722.6.The average user of a 722.6 will get two to three times mechanical life over a 722.3-722.5.
If you love your V12(like most owners), You can convert the old school car to use a 722.6 like the Diesel W126 owners have done so. Here is a thought on how to do it:
https://www.500eboard.co/forums/ind...-automatic-transmission-into-w124-e500e.7995/
https://www.benzworld.org/forums/w126-s-se-sec-sel-sd/2999869-transmission-options.html
Too much dough into a tranny. You can rebuild a 722.3 for about $700 using Mercedes Frictions which are thicker and better quality over any aftermarket, but Mercedes brake bands will set you back an additional $500 where aftermarket bands are about $100 for both bands..
Here is the info on how to rebuild a 722.3-722.5
https://www.benzworld.org/forums/w140-s-class/2635370-gearbox-722-368-repair-manual-tips.html
Hope it helps,
Martin
I'll keep that in mind for future reference, good to know these tweaks. the car runs and drives as it is now. honestly if the transmission ever went out of it, I'd probably just swap in a replacement from a junkyard. in the old days I used to pull them out, and have a bench rebuild done, then put them back in. lately though it's a lot quicker and cheaper to just drop in a junkyard replacement and go. we had 2 Monte Carlos in the family, late model SS black 2 door coupes. great road cars btw. anyway around 180-200k miles, both developed trans shifting problems. I located 2 spares in junkyards for $350 each, picked them up with my truck. being front wheel drive, it requires a lift and special crossbar support, to hold engine in, while trans and subframe is dropped out bottom. big job. I'm no longer equipped for that, so I dropped one car off and trans at my friend's repair garage, he had it done the NEXT DAY. drove that one home, dropped the other one off with its spare trans, he switched that one also in one day. cost to swap is $500 labor per car. if the supply of used transmissions are there, it's just a lot cheaper and quicker to swap and go. on the resale side, the car is almost always worth more keeping it stock spec too.
93 SL500, 95 SL320, 96 S320, 98 S500, 2002 E320 4Matic Wagon & A little 91 5.0 FORD Mustang
Joined
·
8,408 Posts
Oh M120 722.3's are not so common. Most used 722.3's are beat-up pretty well as it is not strong enough for those V12's, and lead-foot drivers.
The common failures is losing reverse which is a seal right behind the front oil pump behind the torque converter.
The other is losing forward which B2 piston seal on the side of the transmission.
Martin
The common failures is losing reverse which is a seal right behind the front oil pump behind the torque converter.
The other is losing forward which B2 piston seal on the side of the transmission.
Martin
Martin,
Not so common? I was under the impression they were fitted as standard.
As to being able to handle the power, I was shocked to see the wear on the first and second gear clutch plates. My trans only had 90k kilometers on it by the time I had to rebuild
Not so common? I was under the impression they were fitted as standard.
As to being able to handle the power, I was shocked to see the wear on the first and second gear clutch plates. My trans only had 90k kilometers on it by the time I had to rebuild
The 722.3 for the M120 has a special bell housing. You can't bolt up a 722.3 from another model W140.
Jon,
Thats the only difference, correct?
Thats the only difference, correct?
Not sure. MAVA can answer that. I believe some internals may be beefed up also. I know some Mercedes transmissions have more friction discs than others, but not sure about 722.3.
93 SL500, 95 SL320, 96 S320, 98 S500, 2002 E320 4Matic Wagon & A little 91 5.0 FORD Mustang
Joined
·
8,408 Posts
Scott,
Very not so common transmission because the bell housing does not come off like a 722.6 or 722.9. It is all one piece from the bell housing to the rear of the transmission, Yet I would not doubt the internals are all the same count, and geared parts are identical to a M119 722.3. The EPC Mercedes diagrams today give the exact count of parts, and the the part numbers, but the internal parts Mercedes has NOT discontinued which is real good for that news.
I got two of these 722.3's on the operating table from a E420's, but one I know has had a failure of the front clutch pack because the input shaft is very hard to turn. Our past member Steve had those front springs eject on him which is common on this generation of transmission(722.3-722.5).. I guess it just one of the flaws to it:
https://www.benzworld.org/forums/w1...-failure-tranny-rebuildable.html#post13667089
The B3 frictions can weld them selves if the frictions just wear out to the substrait metal then one has metal to metal for a friction pack which is no good... As one can see here:
https://www.benzworld.org/forums/r1...2-353-transmission-slipping.html#post13633849
My best bet for all you V12 owners that like to step-on it. Is save your dollars (save your Shilling's) to add a 722.6 with a controller like the W124 Diesel guys are doing it in the first two links in my post 29.
Jon,
You know I have not compared parts count form a M119 722.3 to a M120 722.3, but I'm sure they are identical count, and the gearing will be the same too will be my bet to that
Martin
Very not so common transmission because the bell housing does not come off like a 722.6 or 722.9. It is all one piece from the bell housing to the rear of the transmission, Yet I would not doubt the internals are all the same count, and geared parts are identical to a M119 722.3. The EPC Mercedes diagrams today give the exact count of parts, and the the part numbers, but the internal parts Mercedes has NOT discontinued which is real good for that news.
I got two of these 722.3's on the operating table from a E420's, but one I know has had a failure of the front clutch pack because the input shaft is very hard to turn. Our past member Steve had those front springs eject on him which is common on this generation of transmission(722.3-722.5).. I guess it just one of the flaws to it:
https://www.benzworld.org/forums/w1...-failure-tranny-rebuildable.html#post13667089
The B3 frictions can weld them selves if the frictions just wear out to the substrait metal then one has metal to metal for a friction pack which is no good... As one can see here:
https://www.benzworld.org/forums/r1...2-353-transmission-slipping.html#post13633849
My best bet for all you V12 owners that like to step-on it. Is save your dollars (save your Shilling's) to add a 722.6 with a controller like the W124 Diesel guys are doing it in the first two links in my post 29.
Jon,
You know I have not compared parts count form a M119 722.3 to a M120 722.3, but I'm sure they are identical count, and the gearing will be the same too will be my bet to that
Martin
According to Steve B., there are also two overload protection switches, one for each brake band. These are only found in the V12 version of the 722.3.
That would indicate to me that MB knew this transmission would not be strong enogh to handle the torque.
That would indicate to me that MB knew this transmission would not be strong enogh to handle the torque.
Scan tool
I have old Assemacher hand held scanner that seem to work better on 140 Benzes than my MB Star scanner. Not perfect, but better.
I have old Assemacher hand held scanner that seem to work better on 140 Benzes than my MB Star scanner. Not perfect, but better.
Assuming it uses the same connector as an 94 e320, you can make a very basic code reader. You have to count the flashes, but it works.
If it's not good enough, you can buy a Baum Tools CS1000 Fault Code Scanner [eBay ≈ $400]
Photos of connector and code reader.
If it's not good enough, you can buy a Baum Tools CS1000 Fault Code Scanner [eBay ≈ $400]
Photos of connector and code reader.
Attachments
update: I obtained a used MT2500 Snap On red brick scan tool, with cartridge, cables, keys, and manual on Ebay, from 2 separate auctions on Ebay. It does everything needed to diagnose and scan the M120 V12 engine in the '94 S600 coupe that I needed.
it will scan 5 modules, i.e. 2 ignition l/r, 2 fuel injection l/r, and diagnostic module.
reads codes, erases codes.
live data for engine sensors while running engine:
MAP, MAF, o2, TPS, coolant temp, short term/long term fuel trims, variable valve timing on/off, egr on/off, fuel pump on/off, barometric pressure, total ignition advance, engine rpm, vehicle speed, and more.
the transmission module also shows up but I can't get into it, perhaps I need another key.
the only keys needed to read all the above are the S-20 and S-21 which were supplied.
$250 total. well worth it. extra cable lets you drive car with scanner and get live data.
the experts who sell these vintage scanners told me if you get the 2003 cartridge, that's all you need. it has all the updates. newer cartridges beyond that will not provide any additional information.
it has shown a lot already. the throttle position angle at idle was slightly too far open. spraying the linkage fixed that.
both egr valves are opening at idle, they are no doubt stuck slightly open. I'm going to disable them.
car has well over 32 degrees of total timing at high rpm, that's good.
MAF and MAP sensors are working correctly according to voltage and airflow measured.
o2 sensors are DEAD. they sit down at .100-.250 volts and don't vary like they should from .100-.900
so I ordered 2 new ones.
the car is pig rich because the o2 sensors are giving false lean readings at idle.
so the computer is overcompensating with a rich mixture, the fuel trims are too rich.
new o2 sensors will fix that. they are on the way.
I pulled all 12 plugs, soaked them, and cleaned, and reinstalled. runs much better.
ordered 12 new plugs Bosch nonresistor, they do spark better, I tested them, because they only have 1.5 to 4 ohms of resistance. resistor plugs have 5k ohms of resistance and rob the spark ! I tested the plugs on a magneto and the nonresistor plugs have a huge spark, compared to a wimpy little spark for the resistor plugs.
more to follow.
it will scan 5 modules, i.e. 2 ignition l/r, 2 fuel injection l/r, and diagnostic module.
reads codes, erases codes.
live data for engine sensors while running engine:
MAP, MAF, o2, TPS, coolant temp, short term/long term fuel trims, variable valve timing on/off, egr on/off, fuel pump on/off, barometric pressure, total ignition advance, engine rpm, vehicle speed, and more.
the transmission module also shows up but I can't get into it, perhaps I need another key.
the only keys needed to read all the above are the S-20 and S-21 which were supplied.
$250 total. well worth it. extra cable lets you drive car with scanner and get live data.
the experts who sell these vintage scanners told me if you get the 2003 cartridge, that's all you need. it has all the updates. newer cartridges beyond that will not provide any additional information.
it has shown a lot already. the throttle position angle at idle was slightly too far open. spraying the linkage fixed that.
both egr valves are opening at idle, they are no doubt stuck slightly open. I'm going to disable them.
car has well over 32 degrees of total timing at high rpm, that's good.
MAF and MAP sensors are working correctly according to voltage and airflow measured.
o2 sensors are DEAD. they sit down at .100-.250 volts and don't vary like they should from .100-.900
so I ordered 2 new ones.
the car is pig rich because the o2 sensors are giving false lean readings at idle.
so the computer is overcompensating with a rich mixture, the fuel trims are too rich.
new o2 sensors will fix that. they are on the way.
I pulled all 12 plugs, soaked them, and cleaned, and reinstalled. runs much better.
ordered 12 new plugs Bosch nonresistor, they do spark better, I tested them, because they only have 1.5 to 4 ohms of resistance. resistor plugs have 5k ohms of resistance and rob the spark ! I tested the plugs on a magneto and the nonresistor plugs have a huge spark, compared to a wimpy little spark for the resistor plugs.
more to follow.
21 - 40 of 42 Posts
Join the discussion
Join now to ask and comment!