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Discussion Starter #1
This looks interesting, but I can't afford another set of wheels. It's local to me, though, I might still check it out.

86 M- BENZ 560sec Non USA German

I Have A 86 560sec M-BENZ german made very very clean with only 109,228 miles orignal . black on tow tone peach with black ordered pakage very rear just spend $4800 on the interior new blak wood new carpet new leader alpine sound system cost $800 all origenal paint AMG wheels Staggerd
245 40 18 - 275 35 18 . very relible car. for any thing u can call me @ 818 922 41 32 Contact Chris

Clean title no accident or any thing 2nd owner.

[End Quote]
 

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Seem like a cool ride, though I would be skeptical of buying anything from anybody who simply can't spell. I mean, one typo or error is reasonable but come on! BTW Great plate ElRojo!
 

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Discussion Starter #3
That's true-- but it looks in the small pic to be pretty clean, and definitely has euro stuff on it. I guess I'm just more curious than skeptical at this point. Maybe this guy's a flake, maybe he doesn't know what he has, maybe he just imported it from Japan or something, and can't get it smogged in California. Who knows?
 

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From his spelling it is obvious that he is a foreigner. That's cool. Get the VIN# and run on the Russian site. Ask about a clear title and smog cert.
 

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Hi Dave. It's definitely in our hood. Inquiring minds would like to know more.
Cheers
 

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Discussion Starter #8 (Edited)
Well I've been to check this car out on Thursday, and Teutone and I might be able to check it out again later in the week. It's a promising find-- genuine Gen 2 Euro SEC, imported in January, 1986. Here's what I was able to see, in about a 15-minute "Drive-by" visit (I couldn't stay longer, but it was conveniently located).

The good:

Tri-y's leading to dual pre-cats, central cat, resonators, and 2-in-2-out final exhaust. Owner claims it just passed California smog with very clean numbers. (I didn't see the certificate though).
Perfect chrome front and rear bumpers (Gen 2 Euro spec)
18" staggered ///AMG monoblocks, from a w129, I think. (not the same wheels as in the picture)
No SLS, and it looks like it came stock this way.
No dings or body panel issues that I could see
Clean Euro headlights/lenses
Very clean, unique interior:
Java leather seats and door panels
Black seat backs, vinyl and carpet
New steering wheel w/airbag (from a 124 he said)
Black lacquered wood (no wood grain). This looked to have been done professionally.
Black suede leather headliner (new)
New black rear deck carpet
Alpine head unit
No evidence of any delamination or rust issues in the rear window or in the trunk.
Everything electrical that I touched worked (didn't fiddle with all of the available switches, though).
Euro hazard triangle in trunk (no fire extinguisher, though).
Car started up just fine, idles at 700-800 or so, slight lumpiness.

The odd/sketchy:

Instrument cluster replaced. "Original" was shown to me, with 109K miles showing. It had US markings up to 160 mph, not 170 like my 560 speedo. It had a lamp at the bottom right that looked to me like the glow-plug indicator from a diesel. Would this have been a "CEL" from that era, as the owner claimed?
Owner has a clean title, just recently signed over to him. There is no "salvage" marking, so I assume it's a clean title. Owner has clearly not driven this car more than a couple hundred miles, if that. He claims to have gotten this car as a project, and yet he wasn't very forthcoming with receipts for the work he's talked about.
The headlights have no adjuster switch on the dash (US-spec), but did have the vacuum lines coming out of the lamps.
I couldn't take the car for a drive because there was no gas in it when I came back later in the afternoon (wouldn't start).
The trunk had no panel in front of the gas tank, and no carpet on the bottom. An alpine amplifier was in the left well, but it wasn't going with the car.
Owner claims to have replaced every bushing, piece of rubber, etc. underneath the car. I pointed out the lower control arm bushings, and he said, "well, I don't think I did those." He also said he replaced the shocks, but when I asked what kind, he said "original", and when pressed, didn't identify Bilstein. They looked from a cursory inspection to be KYB, but they sure didn't look brand new.
I have not seen any receipts for work done. This does not mean it hasn't been done, but he didn't come right out and show me a stack of papers, either.

The bad:

The paint on the hood, roof, and trunk is shot. Owner claims to have paid a guy to have it painted already, but it's not scheduled yet. He would take off this cost from his asking price. The paint on the side panels is good.
The trunk has the cell-phone antenna hole in the center, taped over.
There are no records for this car that the owner was willing to produce. I told hi how important this would be, and I think he might try and put together at least something. He says he has a connection to CalStar Motors in Glendale (MB Dealership).
The timing chain rails have not been done (at least to his knowledge).

So that's it. I definitely think that it's worth considering, if you're in the market. Is it worth $8995? Not as it is right now, but I'll let you make the money decisions.

If I go with Teutone later this week, we'll add any new info to this thread.

Dave
 

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CH4S Admin , Outstanding Contributor
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Well I've been to check this car out on Thursday, and Teutone and I might be able to check it out again later in the week. It's a promising find-- genuine Gen 2 Euro SEC, imported in January, 1986. Here's what I was able to see, in about a 15-minute "Drive-by" visit (I couldn't stay longer, but it was conveniently located).

The good:

Tri-y's leading to dual pre-cats, central cat, resonators, and 2-in-2-out final exhaust. Owner claims it just passed California smog with very clean numbers. (I didn't see the certificate though).
Perfect chrome front and rear bumpers (Gen 2 Euro spec)
18" staggered ///AMG monoblocks, from a w129, I think. (not the same wheels as in the picture)
No SLS, and it looks like it came stock this way.
No dings or body panel issues that I could see
Clean Euro headlights/lenses
Very clean, unique interior:
Java leather seats and door panels
Black seat backs, vinyl and carpet
New steering wheel w/airbag (from a 124 he said)
Black lacquered wood (no wood grain). This looked to have been done professionally.
Black suede leather headliner (new)
New black rear deck carpet
Alpine head unit
No evidence of any delamination or rust issues in the rear window or in the trunk.
Everything electrical that I touched worked (didn't fiddle with all of the available switches, though).
Euro hazard triangle in trunk (no fire extinguisher, though).
Car started up just fine, idles at 700-800 or so, slight lumpiness.

The odd/sketchy:

Instrument cluster replaced. "Original" was shown to me, with 109K miles showing. It had US markings up to 160 mph, not 170 like my 560 speedo. It had a lamp at the bottom right that looked to me like the glow-plug indicator from a diesel. Would this have been a "CEL" from that era, as the owner claimed?
Owner has a clean title, just recently signed over to him. There is no "salvage" marking, so I assume it's a clean title. Owner has clearly not driven this car more than a couple hundred miles, if that. He claims to have gotten this car as a project, and yet he wasn't very forthcoming with receipts for the work he's talked about.
The headlights have no adjuster switch on the dash (US-spec), but did have the vacuum lines coming out of the lamps.
I couldn't take the car for a drive because there was no gas in it when I came back later in the afternoon (wouldn't start).
The trunk had no panel in front of the gas tank, and no carpet on the bottom. An alpine amplifier was in the left well, but it wasn't going with the car.
Owner claims to have replaced every bushing, piece of rubber, etc. underneath the car. I pointed out the lower control arm bushings, and he said, "well, I don't think I did those." He also said he replaced the shocks, but when I asked what kind, he said "original", and when pressed, didn't identify Bilstein. They looked from a cursory inspection to be KYB, but they sure didn't look brand new.
I have not seen any receipts for work done. This does not mean it hasn't been done, but he didn't come right out and show me a stack of papers, either.

The bad:

The paint on the hood, roof, and trunk is shot. Owner claims to have paid a guy to have it painted already, but it's not scheduled yet. He would take off this cost from his asking price. The paint on the side panels is good.
The trunk has the cell-phone antenna hole in the center, taped over.
There are no records for this car that the owner was willing to produce. I told hi how important this would be, and I think he might try and put together at least something. He says he has a connection to CalStar Motors in Glendale (MB Dealership).
The timing chain rails have not been done (at least to his knowledge).

So that's it. I definitely think that it's worth considering, if you're in the market. Is it worth $8995? Not as it is right now, but I'll let you make the money decisions.

If I go with Teutone later this week, we'll add any new info to this thread.

Dave
PM sent. I am definitely up for it.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
A couple more things to add:

The A/C connection had no cap, but I have no idea whether that's just a cap, or no charge in the A/C. I also don't know the difference between an R134 fitting and an R12 fitting. There were no stickers indicating a conversion.

From the Russian site:

VIN WDB1260441A205084
Model 500 SEC
Chassis 1260441A205084
Engine 117965 12 001271
Transmission 722311 02 700112
Order 0 5 236 01177
Approx. year 1985
Dealer Freiburg branch (236)
Interior leather light brown / java (274)
Paint
040 black (T) (с 01.01.1963)
Options
483 harder springs and undershields (с 01.01.1964 по 31.07.1996)
490 elimination of windshield heater (с 01.09.1981 по 31.01.1988)
506 outside rear view mirror, left and right, heated (electrically adjustable on the right) (l.h.d.) (с 01.10.1983 по 31.03.1989)
outside rear view mirror, right, convex, taxi export version
512 radio Becker Europa cassette
531 automatic antenna (с 01.01.1963)
551 anti-theft warning system (с 01.11.1978 по 31.03.1998)
586 Behr air conditioner, and electric window lifters (front and rear doors) (с 01.04.1970)
592 heat-insulating glass, all-around, heated rear window pane (laminated glass), band filter
green heat-insulating glass all round, heated rear window, laminated safety glass - tinted strip (с 01.01.1972)
600 headlamp wiper/washer (с 01.08.1971)
610 headlamps and fog lamps and additional bright light with amber lenses (с 01.11.1965 по 31.03.1994)
640 aluminium disc wheels with radial-ply tires (с 01.10.1969 по 31.12.1989)
677 tropical battery (с 01.06.1965 по 30.11.1991)
682 fire extinguisher (с 01.04.1970)
812 rear-mounted loudspeaker (с 01.11.1974)
877 reading lamp in the rear (с 01.11.1963)

this means its NOT an ECE/RUF...bummer.

It does have tri-y's though...

Anyway, more to come when Teutone and I can get over there.

Dave

Teutone: PM sent.
 

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Car sounds like a 2nd gen Euro 500SEC. The SLS were standard fitment all across the 560 model range be it Euro or US. The VIN check cleared it up as a 500.
 

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Notice the VIN report year shows 1985 - doesn't say how early or how late. May be a late Gen 1 with Gen 2 parts put on?
 

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Discussion Starter #14 (Edited)
Another Update on the 560/500SEC euro

Teutone and I went to look at this car together today, and both of us were rather impressed overall. I wish I had some extra cash lying around.

Some interesting questions: first of all, it could be that this is a 10:1 ECE, possibly ECE/RUF engine. The evidence for this is that the owner says that the compression in each cylinder is 225 psi (no documentation). It also has the tri-ys, and I'm not sure that these would have been on a "standard" engine. The exhaust has been reworked, so maybe an ECE engine was dropped in in lieu of the original 500. There's also the possibility that some serious "tapdancing" (Teutone's words) may have been done to get this car into California. The title says "Non US" on it, and it was "first issued" in 1996. The car is badged as a 560, and the badge looks to be in the correct place, and there isn't any evidence of a repaint. The import badge from the Bureau of Automotive repair states that the engine is a 5.6 liter. I checked the manufacture date, and it's 1/86. In any case, neither of us is savvy/experienced enough to tell the 500 from the 560 engine by looking at it, and if anyone has any landmarks to mention, we might be able to recall some things.

We took a ride in it, and it does have a good deal of power. The steering and suspension both feel tight, and there's no squeaks/rattles that are noticeable. All the switches work (windows, sunroof, A/C, etc), as does the cruise control. It has the euro E/S transmission switch. I checked the shocks a little closer, and they do appear to be Bilstein, they're black with a small vertical blue stripe near the bottom of one of them.

There remain several sketchy areas, not least is whether it's a 500 SEC or a 560 SEC. The A/C is non-operational, although the blowers work. The original euro climate controls have been replaced, although the owner says he might have the parts somewhere. There is some oil seepage around the oil filter area and coming down near the back of the engine (I'd want to get it on a lift to look at the back of the cylinder banks to see if it's a head gasket or valve cover). The euro headlight wipers are missing (motors are present, though). We noticed a small wrinkle in the rear panel behind the license plate (not really a problem).

I have the impression that the owner put a good deal of time and effort into the car, but he's not really as knowledgeable about these cars as some on this forum would be (he clearly loves the car, though). He wants to sell the car ASAP-- I think he's pretty strapped for cash. On the other hand, I haven't gotten the impression that he's really willing to do much legwork to put together a good advertisement, with lots of pics, etc, nor gather the documentation needed to support a sale at his asking price.

The upshot of it all is that both Teutone and I would perhaps buy this car, but for our current economic situations (let alone getting our respective partners to go along with it). I definitely think that someone here might be able to get their hands on a good, solid Gen 2 Euro SEC for a good price. There's also the possibility that this one's a "stealth" ECE/RUF. Some additional research would need to be done, but IMHO, it's well worth a look.

Dave
 

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This is the first ever SEC with the Gen II front and rear Euro bumpers I have ever seen, and I really like the look.
The back laquer treatment on all the wood panels looks very good, as does the unique interior.
The question is, how to find out whether it's a Gen II 500, or 560, as both have the black valve covers, double air intakes, and large distributor.
The owner said on the dino the car had 268 hp at the rear wheels, but showed no documentation.

HELP!!! Maybe one of the experts like Talbir, Bruce and Jonathan could chime in, and tell us what to look for?
 

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I wish I was down there to look at it with you guys.

It is probably a real 2nd generation euro car, and as the W126 gray market basically stopped when the DM readjusted and the 560 engine came out at the same time, at the end of 1985, this is a very, very rare car to find in the USA.

Things like the tri Y, bumpers, headlights, lack of SLS make it VERY covetable.
If it turns out to be a 560 euro, you are WAY ahead of the game, and if it's ECE you are golden with 300 bhp.

The guy who has it now got it just recently to flip, and it looks like he had it only a little while.

Enough has been put into it, to suggest it had an enthusaist owner before.


What needs to be done is this:

1. Get the guy with the car to give you contact info. for WHO the previous owner was. That should solve a LOT of mysteries if you can talk to him...
he is still around, and might talk.


2. Go for the Mercedes Benz historical archives and get the original buiild sheet, in German (cause teutone can read it) or in English.
This will put questions to rest even the Russian site can't, and we KNOW the Russian site makes mistakes a lot.

3. For get about Calstar in Glendale, and I know them, they are useless, don't keep repair records, the people that work there are arrogant, dismissive and unhelpful. I have had several bouts with them, in PERSON - and they are NOT worth the price of admission, believe me.

Try elsewhere
 

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Perhaps we should make another appointment with the owner, and take Jerry the old time MB mechanic with us?
 

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Only in Southern California. *sigh*

This car could very *possibly* be a unicorn SEC, impossibly and ultra rare.

I think its provenance is really worth finding out about, and it is legally here, and without terminal rust or being a repaired total loss...

All the other things wrong and faults could be sorted without too much trouble, it sounds like, for people mechanically inclined, so long as the cost of fixing them at retail could be deducted from the asking price, which may be a little high.

The car might really, REALLY be a good one, in the end.

Some good, largish, and clear pictures would certainly help an online analysis...

Supposing it REALLY is a genuine Gen. II 560 ECE euro?

I ask you: Who would not want to have one of THOSE???!!
 

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At first look, the car doesn't seem to need much. Idles well, plenty of power, and no engine, tranny, and other mechanical noises. Very tight suspension, with staggered silver 18,s AMG mono blocks and 245/275 tires.
I rode in the back, and the ride was tight, but not too harsh.
Before today, I never knew what the fuss re Gen II Euro front and rear bumpers was, now I know.
They do look very good, or as my Brit friends would say 'bloody fucking marvelous.'
This was also the first time I have actually seen the TRY-Y manifolds with down pipes, it looked to have a resonators on either down pipe, the a dual in and out cat.
I agree with cascade, even if it should turn out to be a Gen II 500SEC, instead of the in CA illegal 560 RUF/ECE, it would still be a rare car.
The car needs detail / touch up work on the black paint, which is otherwise not bad, and needs a wet sand and clear coat on the hood/roof/trunk. The trunk lid has a small cell antenna hole.
 

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I just remembered, the seats are not the perforated leather found in other Gen II cars.
 
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