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Discussion Starter #1
The article deals with a Land Rover product, but the design of the G's side-facing jump seats and windows is not significantly different. Remove the seats all together. You'll gain lots of cargo room and won't be tempted to let people ride there.

Just my opinion.

http://sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2005/03/10/BAG84BN6FP1.DTL

-Dave G.

URL didn't seem to want to work for some reason so here's the text.

DANVILLE
Parents receive settlement for son's death
Couple warns some Land Rover seats are dangerous
Demian Bulwa, Chronicle Staff Writer

Thursday, March 10, 2005
A Danville couple plans to launch a foundation warning drivers of what they consider the danger of inward-facing "jump seats" in some Land Rover SUVs after settling a lawsuit with the company over the death of their 9-year- old son, who was partly ejected in a rollover crash.

Joey Moore was wearing a lap belt in one of the two third-row, fold-down seats in his parents' 1995 Land Rover Discovery in the July 2001 crash on Highway 50 in El Dorado County.

The Discovery rolled twice after it was cut off by another vehicle, causing Joey's seat to bend backward and crash through a rear window, the lawsuit claimed. The child suffered fatal head injuries.

Joey's parents, Joseph and Jerilyn Moore, and his two brothers suffered minor injuries.

The family last Friday reached a confidential settlement with Land Rover, a British unit of Ford Motor Co., after a jury had been selected and just as opening statements were to begin in their civil trial in Marin County, where the car was purchased.

"This wasn't about the money. We wanted to get the word out that these seats aren't safe," said Joseph Moore. He said his children would fight over the seats because they could face each other and play games while sitting there.

Land Rover, which was sued for wrongful death and negligent infliction of emotional distress, admitted no wrongdoing in the settlement. Several telephone messages left with three company representatives were not returned Wednesday.

One of the couple's attorneys, Peter Alfert, said Wednesday that he knew of no other deaths attributed to the seats offered in the seven-passenger Land Rover Discovery from 1995 to 1998. Side-facing seats are offered in some other SUVs and extended-cab pickups.

Alfert said the Discovery's seats are dangerous in part because they are located along large windows that aren't shatter proof. He said the inward- facing seats, because they fold down, did not have to meet federal standards for strength -- even though the SUV was marketed as a safe option for couples with five children.

Alfert said 50,000 of the SUVs were sold in the United States, with Land Rover switching to forward-facing jump seats for the 1999 Discovery. A Land Rover spokesman told the Sacramento Bee that the seats were safe and were not changed for safety reasons.

Joseph and Jerilyn Moore plan to soon launch the Joey Moore Foundation publicizing their beliefs about the Land Rover Discovery. The foundation may someday expand to other automotive safety issues, Joseph Moore said.
 

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Hipine - 3/10/2005 9:08 PM


One of the couple's attorneys, Peter Alfert, said Wednesday that he knew of no other deaths attributed to the seats offered in the seven-passenger Land Rover Discovery from 1995 to 1998. Side-facing seats are offered in some other SUVs and extended-cab pickups.


Alfert said 50,000 of the SUVs were sold in the United States, with Land Rover switching to forward-facing jump seats for the 1999 Discovery. A Land Rover spokesman told the Sacramento Bee that the seats were safe and were not changed for safety reasons.
50,000 vehicles and only one death? Isn't simply crossing the street that dangerous?
 

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i would imagine the jump seats aren't as safe as the others by virtue of the fact that they don't have shoulder belts, head rests, or face the direction of most accidents,

...but i'm tempted to think on the G-wagen, given that they're used for military service for the last 25 years, and have 8 bolts the size of most passenger cars 4 bolts holding each one in place, I hesitate to think that the g-wagens jump seats could suffer the same fate as the land rover's.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
It ain't the seat.

It's the fact that when the truck rolls, or even gets broadsided at the rear, your head goes out the window backwards, regardless of how many bolts are holding the seat in place.

-Dave
 

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RE: It ain't the seat.

I agree hipine, being close to the window in a short backed seat (no headrest) is "sub-optimal", but i understand the article to say that was a contributor to the seat failure which bent with only a kid in it. I hope i didn't come of sounding like i'm saying they're as safe as the other seats. But i think there are some difference.

heck, when i was a kid i remember rolling around in the back of my parent station wagon, and my friends suburban. We just lucked out i guess, and if i have kids they wont get the same "luxury".


As a Cliff Claven fact of the day, in japan you still don't have to wear seatbelts in the back seats, but no talking on cell phones.
 

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RE: It ain't the seat.

Hipine - 3/11/2005 4:13 PM

It's the fact that when the truck rolls, or even gets broadsided at the rear, your head goes out the window backwards, regardless of how many bolts are holding the seat in place.

-Dave
I don't think you can say that it is a fact that your head will go out the window backwards. It COULD happen that way, it did happen at least once but again, seems like an extremely rare occurance. Those Discos have been on the road for ten years. Mercedes offered those same style seats for 25 years. If they are truely as bad as you might have us believe wouldn't they A) have been outlawed long ago, or B) been removed as an option by a safety conscious manufacturer like MB?

Certainly the potential for added risk exists. If that risk bothers you, go ahead, remove the seats or do not use them. I don't think it is justifiable, with the obvious lack of hard evidence against them, to roundly denounce the use of the jump seats.

Reminds me of all the silly helmet use I see today as well. Helmets on bikes(which I did use when wildly mtn biking in the woods), helmets on skiers....Funny how so many of us survived without those things and yet now they are considered a MUST by most parents.

Just my opinion
 

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Brent... helmets!!!!...

it's funny that you mention helmets... i use them on bikes and recently purchased one for skiing because i get into really tight tree sections and have had a number of locals in the ski areas who do some similar stuff recommend them... and then with all this talk of airbags protecting the head... it made me think side cutrains might be the only ones i think the G even needs if you wear your seatbelts because the side of the vehicle is pretty much the only thing that you can hit in a crash...

thinking about his and adding it all up, the safest thing to do is wear my snowboarding helmet when i drive, because my chances of dying in a car accident far outweigh any other risk from skiing or biking, and nothing beats a helmet for protection from a blow from who knows what direction... so if you see a kid driving a sliver box with a helmet on you know who it is. [:I]
 

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RE: It ain't the seat.

Brent - 3/11/2005 7:31 PM

Hipine - 3/11/2005 4:13 PM

It's the fact that when the truck rolls, or even gets broadsided at the rear, your head goes out the window backwards, regardless of how many bolts are holding the seat in place.

-Dave
I don't think you can say that it is a fact that your head will go out the window backwards. It COULD happen that way, it did happen at least once but again, seems like an extremely rare occurance. Those Discos have been on the road for ten years. Mercedes offered those same style seats for 25 years. If they are truely as bad as you might have us believe wouldn't they A) have been outlawed long ago, or B) been removed as an option by a safety conscious manufacturer like MB?

Certainly the potential for added risk exists. If that risk bothers you, go ahead, remove the seats or do not use them. I don't think it is justifiable, with the obvious lack of hard evidence against them, to roundly denounce the use of the jump seats.

Reminds me of all the silly helmet use I see today as well. Helmets on bikes(which I did use when wildly mtn biking in the woods), helmets on skiers....Funny how so many of us survived without those things and yet now they are considered a MUST by most parents.

Just my opinion
A kid in my neighborhood growing up probably would have gotten beat up for wearing a helmet on his bike. Times have surely changed.

On single track trails I wear one. If I snowboarded or tree ski'd I might.
 

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I suppose that I would prefer to have my kid beat up for wearing a helmet than killed not wearing one. I also don't listen to the complaints about my six year old sitting in the Recaro child seat even though it is not the law and other parents don't require it.

IMHO it is a shame that some members of the G community is so macho that it has no regard for the safety of its children?
 

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engnenk - 3/12/2005 9:30 AM

I suppose that I would prefer to have my kid beat up for wearing a helmet than killed not wearing one. I also don't listen to the complaints about my six year old sitting in the Recaro child seat even though it is not the law and other parents don't require it.

IMHO it is a shame that some members of the G community is so macho that it has no regard for the safety of its children?
"Macho" has nothing to do with it. To also suggest that some of us do not care about the safety of our children is absolutely absurd not to mention highly offensive.

Do as you will with your own children, it is still a free country for the most part. It is pure opinion as to what safe is anyway. Is it safer to put a helmet on your kids head and send him/her out thinking they are now completely safe? Or is there another way to look at this. You can teach your children that this could be dangerous, so "be careful so you don't bang your head". My contention is that the latter method teaches them respect for potential danger. Your method IMO creates a completely false sense of security. If hit by a car, I bet the helmet is of no use, yet the illusion you create in their mind is one of safety. That IMO is MORE dangerous.

I think this applies to most areas of child rearing. You may not like my opinions or methods but they have nothing to do with machismo or misdirected pride.

This thread started based on one child dying in an unfortunate accident. The facts given clearly stated that this was an extremely rare occurance. Some may choose to take action, others may choose to consider it an anomoly, as the facts show. You are still free to act as you wish. I still maintain that, IMO this is a "knee jerk" reaction to an unfortunate event. If I reacted to everything this way I would be selling my guns, my skis, my snomobiles, my automobiles period. No doubt this incident is something to consider but jeez people, get a grip, life is full of risk.
 

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RE: It ain't the seat.

In a side rollover accident with your back facing the side of your car, your head will MOST CERTAINLY be forced outwards. The only question is whether or not the glass is hard enough to catch the back of your head or your belt is tight enough to hold you low in the seat so your head hits the top of the seats. Most likely, the poor kid's belts (parents fault really) were too loose and his head was hanging out the car as the car was rolling, and the extra momentum pulled the rusty disco's seats apart (aren't all discos rusty? [;)] ).

Take a look at all cars available today, the shoulder belts are always higher on the side closer to the window. it's there to catch your neck and keep your body inside the car in a rollover.
 
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