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Discussion Starter #61
But it is doable, right? We are not talking the impossible here?? So what this comes down to is price and time. Can the price be brought down to a "reasonable" point and the work done in a "reasonable" amount of time. (Say 30-60 days). That's what I am searching for.

350-400 HP for 5-8 grand and done within 30-60 days.... And done by somebody local. That is my big bug-a-boo. I do not want to ship my car back east to have anything done. I'm not going to "Send it away and they're going to Send it back" to quote Steve Martin from long ago.

If I was going to do that, I would ship my car to Satish and do the V-12 M120 mod in a heartbeat. I am doing this because I know there are PLENTY of competent mechanics here in SoCal that can do this, and do this cheaper than existing options.

Jono - Even if you were dollar for dollar the same, there is the issue of shipment and time. You have to factor in the shipment of the engine back and forth and the car back and forth. So even if you could do the engine mods at exactly the same price, it would be more because of the shipment costs involved. So I am trying to find someone in my own back yard that I can drive my car in through the doors and drive out a few weeks later with more HP... It does not HAVE to be 400 HP, I'll be happy with anything over 350. 375 would be great, 400 and I will be dancing in the streets.`

Also, I do not stand to gain a cent from this. In fact I have a lot to lose. The money and time up front, and face later on if it does not pan out. But we gain nothing if we do not try and at least I will have tried.
 

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Of course it's doable. The aim of my previous post was to show there is a real potential. But as always the end result will be a compromise between performance, driveability, reliability and mileage. And the equation is different with each one of us depending on intended use, means and personal taste. Clearly that guy is able to come out with something interesting if I refer to the pictures you posted.
 

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Apparently the K jet system is able to deliver plenty of fuel if tweaked to do so. But in my opinion, the best way to optimise hotter cams, high compression pistons and improved exhaust flow is to go with a full stand alone fuel & spark electronic management system (ala Megasquirt). fitting a more poweful ignition ala EDIS and may be also reworking the air intake side of things may be necessary for the engine to breath and burn as much as it's up to.
 

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Discussion Starter #64
Apparently the K jet system is able to deliver plenty of fuel if tweaked to do so. But in my opinion, the best way to optimise hotter cams, high compression pistons and improved exhaust flow is to go with a full stand alone fuel & spark electronic management system (ala Megasquirt). fitting a more poweful ignition ala EDIS and may be also reworking the air intake side of things may be necessary for the engine to breath and burn as much as it's up to.
Well I am starting out with two HC motors and they can be reworked from there. Tom says he can do that. If you read earlier, he is going to design and build and install a tuned equal length exhaust and he is capable of grinding new cams as well. He told me he can tweak the Bosch Ignition and Injection, or he can recommend and install an aftermarket system and he mentioned the two you did.

My plan is to go in phases, slowly and benchmark all of the results on the dyno and when my car is how I want it, I will stop there.
 

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Again, to get 375HP in a reliable package AMG needed to add two more cams on a Far surperior head w/ the exhaust cams being variable, 6L of displacement, and LH jetronic which is Far more powerful then our CISE

Keep in mind, just to rebuild a Stock engine comes in around 9K.


Yes, there are all things I've mentioned in the past.. stand alone is necessary (until MS III comes out I've been more interested in other systems w/ full sequential support). Cams will have to be billet as I'm about @ the limit of what can be done grind wise, ie just about Out of base circle!
Ignition is sufficiently powerful, we need more control over when it happens. Adjustable cam gears need to be fabbed as well..

One can only go So far w/ compression..unless you plan on getting ridiculously aggressive on the cam and bleeding off some of the static to make things workable.. The last HC (11.5-1 engine) that BT build blew up quite spectacularly...but that's another story.

The stock manifold is great for Normal street use, but trash for making big power, so yes, full custom intake.

Again, it All boils down to $$$$$.

Jonathan
 

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Again, to get 375HP in a reliable package AMG needed to add two more cams on a Far surperior head w/ the exhaust cams being variable, 6L of displacement, and LH jetronic which is Far more powerful then our CISE

Keep in mind, just to rebuild a Stock engine comes in around 9K.


Yes, there are all things I've mentioned in the past.. stand alone is necessary (until MS III comes out I've been more interested in other systems w/ full sequential support). Cams will have to be billet as I'm about @ the limit of what can be done grind wise, ie just about Out of base circle!
Ignition is sufficiently powerful, we need more control over when it happens. Adjustable cam gears need to be fabbed as well..

One can only go So far w/ compression..unless you plan on getting ridiculously aggressive on the cam and bleeding off some of the static to make things workable.. The last HC (11.5-1 engine) that BT build blew up quite spectacularly...but that's another story.

The stock manifold is great for Normal street use, but trash for making big power, so yes, full custom intake.

Again, it All boils down to $$$$$.

Jonathan
What about twin turbos? (forgive my ignorance)

composite material (fiberglass, carbon fiber) body?
 

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Sure...hell, I've got a Koenig TT kit sitting on the shelf....also have and entire kit planned out on paper using more current turbo's etc, etc..

But still, by the time you're done making the manfiolds, having turbo's set up w/ the right ratio's, installing stand alone, relocations various bits under hoold, tuning etc, etc.. You're into $$$$

Even if you went rear mount, there is still 2K worth of pipe to be run..plus you still need to go stand alone to get all the fuel you would Need/want to utlize everything... In reaility, it's easier to get the fuel from straight CIS w/ a WUR over CISE and our nifty EHA..

Body parts....no one is willing to pay for what quality bits cost.


Jonathan
 

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I think maybe for the peanut gallery out there (like me) it would be wise for us to remember that 350-400 horsepower for $5,000-$8,000 dollars for your project is not the starting point on the cash outlay.

It starts with sourcing the engines you are using that would cost a pretty penny if already rebuilt. I would hope if you are going through the tremendous efforts and expense that you will be starting with a complete rebuild to start with. This does seem like the path you are taking but I can't believe any tech would promise a stock 560 rebuilt motor for $5,000-$8,000 let alone with all the horsepower upgrades that he is doing.

If that is his price to take a motor and rebuild it with intent to increase horsepower, I will keep his name and number handy for when I need a "stock" valve job and then just tell him to rebuild the whole thing for $5-$8 grand since rebuilt heads r & r cost $4,000-$5500 last time I had heads rebuilt (11 years ago).

The most scary part of this project to me would be....if everything turns out exactly as planned, in the planned budget, getting the planned horsepower.....will I ever actually get to drive it around town any more? It would take just one time to have your car listed as a gross polluter (assuming it will even pass it's first smog test) to have a gold shield guy or referee station guy crawling around your engine with a list of approved numbers for parts to have the car permanently parked in this state. Bet when they see the headers on it the first thing they will do is whip out the "approved" list.

I am sure all of this has come up in your discussions before and in your thoughts in weighing out the feasibility of this because it seems that this is a planned out, well thought out project. I am certainly not saying I would never want to do a project like this (I really would, but just with a different make and model car to start out with).

I say have at it and enjoy it. I know the rest of us are enjoying watching your project come together.

Greg
 

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One should not focus on power values but on the use he wants to do of the car. Getting 500 hp between 7000 and 7500 rpm, with very little before and blowing everything after may not be a very fun car to drive.

Already, with currently available gas 10:1 CR would be a maximum. May be a bit higher if the fuel and ignition are electonically controlled with knck sensors etc.

Starting with HC engines is a good start. First thing to do is work on the exhaust as an engine cannot gulp more than what it can push out. Here, equal length may ensure best peak power and torque, but within a limited rpm range. It's all based on back pressure and if stock tri-Ys do not all have the same length is not because MB doesn't know how to do them but because they intended not to have all the cylinders deliver peack torque and power at the same time. This plays against overall peak power and torque of the engine but is in favour of a wider torque and power band which adds to driveability and... may help better lap times on a track, as you don't need to play constantly with a 6 manual speed transmission to get the best out of the engine. Good exhaust may help gaining up to 15 hp compared to original tri-Y, but the cost may be some driveability loss.

Next is the camshaft profile. You can also gain say 25 hp there if you are ready to accept a crappy idle and a serious loss of driveability at lower rev.

P&P may help gaining in the range of 10 hp.

Expensie work on the intake side may help you gain say 10 to 15 more hp, but this is not on your list for now.

So, adding all up, we now gain 50 hp, may be 60. Here a fully stand alone fuel and spark management system becomes interesting because it can make you gain between 15 and 20% (in extreme cases) overall. So, (280 + 60) x 1.15 = 375 hp. Also to note that a stand alone system smoothen out low rev problems due to lumpy cams and add efficiency all along the range.

I think here you have alredy reached $8000. If you want more power you will need custom intake manifold and serious work on the lower end to keep up with bigger power at higher rev. And that's quite expensive!

In the end, one should really define the project well. Big power is not always synonymus of most fun on the road, and may even not be the quickest on open roads. A well balanced car with proper compromise between brakes, suspension, tires, transmission and a well sorted engine delivering good power and torque over a wide rpm range is the most enjoyable in my view.

I did not touch on lightening the car, but up to a certain point gainig weight is the cheapest way to increase a car's performance. But it can also become very expensive past a certain point.
 

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Ah, and a taller rear end ratio also make a BIG difference. 3:07 may be the limit if one still wants to cruise at 80 mph on the highway for long hours.
 

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The last HC (11.5-1 engine) that BT build blew up quite spectacularly...but that's another story.
Jonathan
Jono - great point. And, supposedly, BTE had experience and knew what they were doing! So either that's not true....or, you have to be careful what you are doing with these motors. Its not a Ford or Chevy big block that you can cheaply tweak and rebuild if you blow it up! Plus, we aren't talking race track here where the pit crew can tear down the motor and rebuild it after every major thrashing.
 

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Ah, and a taller rear end ratio also make a BIG difference. 3:07 may be the limit if one still wants to cruise at 80 mph on the highway for long hours.
No point in building a worked engine if you cant max out 300kph speedo IMO
The spirit of these cars lies in smooth sustaind high speed crusing not being first off at the lights,lumpy idle and all or nothing power delivery.
If your going to go 3/07 would be better with a manual gearbox with o/d 5th gear.
 

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No point in building a worked engine if you cant max out 300kph speedo IMO
Then you need seriously big power (twin turbo?) and big work on aerodynamics.

The spirit of these cars lies in smooth sustaind high speed crusing not being first off at the lights,lumpy idle and all or nothing power delivery.
gear.
That's my point. Performance comes at a compromise.

If your going to go 3/07 would be better with a manual gearbox with o/d 5th gear.
That's what I'm doing, but with a 3,27 ratio. I'm targeting 250 km/h with a '62 W111 Coupe:
 

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There was a set of headers produced by SuperchargedSEC for sale that were never mounted they were jet coated and in the end available for a mere $900 not long ago. Didn't sell the first time around.
and my point is that if a set of custom headers that are already coated couldn't find a buyer at $900 not sure that there will be many takers at $1200 for an untreated set.

Besides the OEM cast iron tri-y manifolds are the most efficient, reliable, durable, proven and tested manifold available, period. There is little room for improvement if any at all.

I also realize that they are not available on every street corner. Might I suggest that a set of AMG headers be located and replicate those. They are already designed, tried, tested and also proven. That will cut the cost.
 

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I might add along that thought, that Hartmut commented to me that cast manifolds do/did flow better then the hand made bits.. On the twin cam engines there was a decided power increase once they had cast manifolds available.

I showed the AMG headers to my pipe bender and he wasn't @ all impressed w/ the design..basically stating one could put together a much better flowing set of pipes using what's been learned in the last 20 years.


FWIW, when I endeavored to set out on a header project we were going to use all stainless and the price would have been the same, 2K..

Jonathan
 

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Discussion Starter #76
I showed the AMG headers to my pipe bender and he wasn't @ all impressed w/ the design..basically stating one could put together a much better flowing set of pipes using what's been learned in the last 20 years.


FWIW, when I endeavored to set out on a header project we were going to use all stainless and the price would have been the same, 2K..

Jonathan
Exactly why I am not hunting down a set (Or asking Jim to borrow his set.) I showed Tom pics of that set you had and he said the same thing, That he could design a much better set and to just let him do his thing.
 

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Why dont you guys just buy that Supercharger kit from that Estonian guy? He posted pics and stuff about it a few months ago. He is also selling 5spd conversion kits.

My next MB project will be a M120 swap into a w126 or a m119 into a w201. I'll probably swap all the electronics over as well. I don't think I have Satish's patience to integrate everything.
 

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He said that he would take my two Eueo motors as soon as I could get them to him (without me paying a deposit because I told him I was committed to a bunch of stuff and he said that was okay, he trusted me) so he could start taking measurements and laying out a plan. This guy is from Poland and was trained on MB's not Fords. But, he lives in SoCal and what do we have the majority of here that ppl dumpo money into? American Muscle cars, so that's what he does. But, there are hundreds of shops that do that and very few as we all know that can muscle mod a M117 motor.

It's not like our motors can't take it guys. We all know they are built like tank motors.

He said he is going to be very reasonable with us because he sees the potential. So if you have any specific questions or concerns, post them or email me and I will relay them to him.

A true metallurgist! Do you have his contact information and what does he charge?
 
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