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:beerchugr::beerchugr: 400 HP at the friggen crank!!! where the f^ck do I sign up? Serious. I would sell my CLK and drive down there and have the work done. How long would it take him, If I came down for 2 weeks would he have it done?

If my friend in SanDiego comes through with a wiring harness I will drive down. Who's house can I stay at? I am clean and will buy beer and wine!!!:notworthy:
 

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There was a set of headers produced by SuperchargedSEC for sale that were never mounted they were jet coated and in the end available for a mere $900 not long ago. Didn't sell the first time around.

The Gen I US spec M117s were delivered with the most restrictive exhaust systems. Upgrading to a OEM tri-y manifolds and true dual exhaust system, with hi-flow dual in dual out cat showed an increase of 29 hp. Upgrading from euro logs to a tri-y system may show an increase of 10-15hp.

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w126-s-se-sec-sel-sd/1246737-500sec-dual-exhaust.html

Dynos are different.

http://www.benzworld.org/forums/w126-s-se-sec-sel-sd/1257025-maha-lps-3000-dyno.html#post1852182

Not to pee on the parade and at the risk of sounding a snore but gaining horses from these M117 isn't simply a matter of pistons, cams and headers. There are rings, pins, rods, cranks, bearings, gaskets, lifters, hd springs, keepers, etc, etc, etc. to consider. There are proven "systems" and components that have provided moderate increases in performance. These have been designed and manufactured by top engineers and manufactured to the highest tolerances of the most refined metals. This quality and refinement translate into reliability and durability. I just don't see that coming out of a go fast speed shop. Building headers, yeah...port and polishing, maybe but I wouldn't let them touch the internal workings of Mercedes engineered product but that's just me.

Keep fighting the good fight! HP is additive.:thumbsup:
 

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Discussion Starter #45
Not to pee on the parade and at the risk of sounding a snore but gaining horses from these M117 isn't simply a matter of pistons, cams and headers. There are rings, pins, rods, cranks, bearings, gaskets, lifters, hd springs, keepers, etc, etc, etc. to consider. There are proven "systems" and components that have provided moderate increases in performance. These have been designed and manufactured by top engineers and manufactured to the highest tolerances of the most refined metals. This quality and refinement translate into reliability and durability. I just don't see that coming out of a go fast speed shop. Building headers, yeah...port and polishing, maybe but I wouldn't let them touch the internal workings of Mercedes engineered product but that's just me.

Keep fighting the good fight! HP is additive.:thumbsup:
I took these words to heart because I do not want to be led down the primrose path, so I called Tom yesterday (Sunday) and he answered and took all of my questions and invites you guys to ask anything you want. Post it here and either he will read it and get back to me or I will print it and tell him.. He is not into posting on boards, he just does not have the time for that, and that's good.

He said he would send me some pics and true to his word, before I even got up, here they were:
 

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Discussion Starter #46
He said that he would take my two Eueo motors as soon as I could get them to him (without me paying a deposit because I told him I was committed to a bunch of stuff and he said that was okay, he trusted me) so he could start taking measurements and laying out a plan. This guy is from Poland and was trained on MB's not Fords. But, he lives in SoCal and what do we have the majority of here that ppl dumpo money into? American Muscle cars, so that's what he does. But, there are hundreds of shops that do that and very few as we all know that can muscle mod a M117 motor.

It's not like our motors can't take it guys. We all know they are built like tank motors.

He said he is going to be very reasonable with us because he sees the potential. So if you have any specific questions or concerns, post them or email me and I will relay them to him.
 

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Not to pee on the parade and at the risk of sounding a snore but gaining horses from these M117 isn't simply a matter of pistons, cams and headers. There are rings, pins, rods, cranks, bearings, gaskets, lifters, hd springs, keepers, etc, etc, etc. to consider. There are proven "systems" and components that have provided moderate increases in performance. These have been designed and manufactured by top engineers and manufactured to the highest tolerances of the most refined metals. This quality and refinement translate into reliability and durability. I just don't see that coming out of a go fast speed shop. Building headers, yeah...port and polishing, maybe but I wouldn't let them touch the internal workings of Mercedes engineered product but that's just me.

Keep fighting the good fight! HP is additive.:thumbsup:
All good points. I have heard a lot about "tweaks" not having the desired affect. I know of some custom headers an exhaust that were built for our cars that didn't seem to produce the desired result, so I don't think its just a matter of fabbing something up.

As well know, these engineers designed things to work a certain way, and they didn't make it cheap or easy for us to screw around with it! :) Kudos if someone figures out a way that doesn't cost an arm, leg, and vital organs.
 

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I disagree. I don't think the Germans were factoring california emissions, cats, smog pumps, single exhaust 87 octane. My 283 in my pontiac was 2 barrel and old tech and made 290hp so with this modern master piece why can't we get 400hp with better cams and pistons? I think these motors are dumbed down for economy and reliability not performance. Yes I would pay 5k for 400hp
 

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I disagree. I don't think the Germans were factoring california emissions, cats, smog pumps, single exhaust 87 octane. My 283 in my pontiac was 2 barrel and old tech and made 290hp so with this modern master piece why can't we get 400hp with better cams and pistons? I think these motors are dumbed down for economy and reliability not performance. Yes I would pay 5k for 400hp
If it were That easy I'd say AMG would have been cranking out 5K dollar 400HP cars all day long..


Till you try it first hand, it's tough to Know.

Jonathan


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Now playing: Gorillaz - Plastic Beach Ft. Mick Jones & Paul Simon
via FoxyTunes
 

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I disagree. I don't think the Germans were factoring california emissions, cats, smog pumps, single exhaust 87 octane. My 283 in my pontiac was 2 barrel and old tech and made 290hp so with this modern master piece why can't we get 400hp with better cams and pistons? I think these motors are dumbed down for economy and reliability not performance. Yes I would pay 5k for 400hp
I think your definition of "performance" differs from mine.

I'd rather go 300K miles at ~290hp than 1/4 mi at 400 hp

You'll also have to remember the oil crunch in the late 70's through 80's and then came the econo cars and the rest of the car mfgs moving to the "luxury" market.
 

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Discussion Starter #51
not bad, it didn't seem like he was pushing it, what were you trying to do with the dyno, is this car a Euro?
We were establishing a baseline performance index. This first run was to establish what a US Spec California car does does bone stock. Next week when the car comes back from the body shop, I will have the Tri Wye's mounted along with the AMG exhaust I picked up Friday. A new cat will be installed too since we will be under there.

Then I will take it back to Tom's and have him do another run. Then we all will have a definitive answer on how much actual HP is added with TY's and a proper exhaust.

I am having the TY's installed for two reasons. I have developed an exhaust leak last week right after the run and I need to get that fixed, so why not? They are here and I am curious. And the second reason is to get that definitive data that everyone always asks.

After that I have a bunch of mechanical stuff I need to do to the car and then comes the interior. $2500.00 to have the Recaro's completely re-upholstered and re-done. I intend on removing the power headrests from my old MB seats and having Randy graft those into the seats. There is an extra switch hole in the switchplates and I ordered extra window switches for the HR power. I intend on having the door seat switch plates remade to remove the functions that it will no longer control.

At that point, the engine work will be progressing nicely and I will have him start on the custom headers. Those will get installed and we will do another pull on the Dyno to see how much (if any) more HP over stock TY's. Then we will install the new engine and do a final pull on it seeing what the actual gain in HP is over all three prior stages. I will tag prices there at each stage so that members can gauge the cost per HP and decide for themselves how much they want to spend to get X amount of gain.

Lastly, I have found out in my life that just because someone says "It can't be done" or "It's can't be done for that" does not mean it cannot be done for that. It just means They cannot do it for that. I have had many people tell me that, and then I get it or get it done for what I originally wanted. Everybody has a different experience base and expense base and so NO ONE, no matter how experienced they may think they are, can give a definitive statement about what can or cannot be done for X amount.

This may prove folly, IDK. But Tom seems to me like he knows what he is doing and talking about. He is willing to take my engines, store them for me and work on them taking them apart to give me an accurate picture of what can and cannot be done and at what actual price. If someone is willing to put in a lot of time and effort before requesting a whole lot of money up front, that speaks volumes about their character... Not that you pay for something and then have to wait 6 or 8 months to get it, if ever and faced with a ton of excuses along the way...

He also told me that he is going to take care of me in the price department and also that he want our business. He comes from Europe and cut his teeth on Benzes, Bimmers and Audi's and seems to know them well. I didn't have to tell him where anything was on my engine and he tells me he is well versed on Bosch Ignition Systems. He knew where the ECU and EZL were and how to tweak them he says.

So, Stay tuned.... Same Bat Time.... Same Bat Channel....
 

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You have a point but you could also look at some SVT mustang that is a premo product that private owners take and get 200hp extra out of. I will admit with out hesitation and you do know more about this then I do that is for sure.


If it were That easy I'd say AMG would have been cranking out 5K dollar 400HP cars all day long..


Till you try it first hand, it's tough to Know.

Jonathan


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Now playing: Gorillaz - Plastic Beach Ft. Mick Jones & Paul Simon
via FoxyTunes
 

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I think it's clear from the pics of his work, along with the workshop, that he does quality work, no doubt about that.

And the great thing here is that McClare is already in the process of having his car done with dyno runs to show, so my interest is definitely piqued and I'm looking forward to the posts of the progress.

One thing is for sure in that more hp and torque can be gained from these engines, but the question is going to be how much.

Great thread :thumbsup:
 

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Hey mclare, how about an introduction to your "other" Benz now that you're driving her!? The 199/261 '90 560SEL w/ BBS rims!
 

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Discussion Starter #55 (Edited)
I think it's clear from the pics of his work, along with the workshop, that he does quality work, no doubt about that.

And the great thing here is that McClare is already in the process of having his car done with dyno runs to show, so my interest is definitely piqued and I'm looking forward to the posts of the progress.

One thing is for sure in that more hp and torque can be gained from these engines, but the question is going to be how much.

Great thread :thumbsup:
Here Here!

But my name is mclare as in Michael Clare. Not McClare, although my actual initials are MCC.
 

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Big +1 on RJMBurgess' comments. Michael's photos of the shop indicate an enormous level of skill and attention to detail. Everything a Benz deserves.

Thanks Michael. You really put in the effort with a very systematic approach toward solutions. As a noobe, I really appreciate all the info and looking forward to someday being able to contribute.

Richard
 

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400 hp for 5.6 liters is slightly above 70hp/liter which is usually the target for any naturally aspirated vintage tuned engine for road use (Jaguar XK, Alfa DOHC engines etc.).While the target is usually lower for bigger displacement engine, the M117 is of a more recent conception and so it may be reachable. It has to be noted that the M117 5.0 engine have been used in some custom sports cars and some Ford GT 40 replicas in Germany. I saw some fitted with four double downdraft carburretos and a transaxle and they were not amusing anybody on the track. So the potential is there for sure. In my opinion, reliability and driveability will be the determining factors more than pure power gains.
 

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Here Here!

But my name is mclare as in Michael Clare. Not McClare, although my actual initials are MCC.
It's funny, and I actually realised this some time ago, but in my mind you are McClare - has a certain sense of mystery to it, like MacGyver, lol.
 

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that's just it, the power can be had, but with what we have to work with, ie CIS E, cams that only allow but So much of a profile change and the desire for these cars to be streetable etc, etc.. There are a Lot of limiting factors.

Sure, we could do BIG power, but it's BIG $$$ as it's ALL custom... billet cams, custom rockers, custom pistons, rods, crank, intake... where does one stop??

I've been searching for cheap power out of these cars, it's just Not that easy.

Jonathan
 

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Discussion Starter #60
It's funny, and I actually realised this some time ago, but in my mind you are McClare - has a certain sense of mystery to it, like MacGyver, lol.
ROTFLMAO Okay, I'll live with that! I'm called that all the time... MacGuyver, So McClare or MacClare I can live with. Certainly my car has it's share of MacGuyvers in her.
 
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