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Discussion Starter #21

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Discussion Starter #22
Results from the Dyno Run and Questions posed to Tom

Okay, well as you all know reading this, I found a fabricator here in the Antelope Valley that said he knew Mercedes and that he could fabricate custom headers for $1200.00 and also replicate AMG cams and heads. As we all know the proof is in the pudding as they say, so i went up to his shop to have a look around. Although he and I had talked about putting my car on the Dyno for a baseline analysis, I wasn't prepared for it this morning (Meaning I didn't bring a checkbook or have enough cash and he didn't take C/C or debit cards) but he was okay with me just mailing him a check, but after I went right down to the ATM and got him the cash and came right back.

But anyways, I drive up there and it's down a private dirt road and I pull up to a huge building, clearly a highbay, with a light rain coming down. Perfect day!







So I back my car onto the Dyno:



And I start looing around the shop and see many projects in various stages of completion:


A sand rail/dune buggy that is V-8 powered


A Big Block V-8 powered Hot Rod and a International Travelall on a 98 Dodge LB Diesel pickup chassis that he extended the body of in two sections. A center plug od 22" and a front plug of 16"! You can see a Chevy pickup behind the grinder.





Some of his tool and machinery



Another pic of the Travelall



A closeup of the Rod's pipes
 

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Discussion Starter #23
This is a FASCINATING project he is doing:



This is the frame of basically a Formula 1 street Rod. The frame is sitting on it's side. It is very reminiscent of a Prowler, but they said it will look like a streamlined T-Bucket.

Here's a closeup of the front suspension:



Yes, that is all hand made out of Aircraft grade Chrome-Molly and they are actually in the shape of an airfoil. He made each and every piece there from scratch. Notice the connecting arm that runs to the bottom? It's for the inboard shocks!



The rear brakes!



The tires



The Motor. Notice the downdraft pipes? They will be for the injectors, like downdraft webers he said they will look like, but will be modern EFI system for max performance and tuning.



The equal length headers for it. Look at that artwork boys and if you have any questions if he can get around our steering box, I think they are answered here. BTW this car is titled in AZ in case anyone was wondering about "How's he going to smog this?"



An example of 'Variable length' headers that he made. The rails he is pointing to are slides that he can adjust the length of the outlet pipe to 'tune' it to whatever resonant frequency he might want to dial in.

Two examples of intake manifolds that he ported and polished out:





The engine for the 'Variable' pipes:

 

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Discussion Starter #24 (Edited)
One of MANY shelves of parts and supplies:



Some body tools:



The Dyno:



Backing it on there and starting the lasing down process:





More Tie Downs:









I was in the Navy and I was in Naval Aviation and worked on the flight decks of 3 Carriers and I worked on the bow cats and was used to being around Jets Lashed down at full afterburners. But it's a whole different story when it's your baby that you have built and loved. If 704 goes in the drink, as long as the pilots get out and you are not hit by any FOD or debris, it's all good. Standing next to an F-14 at full burners on the cat is one thing, but having my baby strapped down and run at full throttle and being 2 feet from her is COMPLETELY another.
 

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Discussion Starter #25 (Edited)
My Dyno Report:



The start of the test:



Some people may be wondering what we are talking about 'equal length pipes' and what that means. Well anything that vibrates creates what's called resonance and harmonics. This is the true meaning of 'Tuning' an engine, not just setting the timing. Equal length pipes will all 'resonate' or vibrate at the same frequency, thereby keeping the engine 'balanced'. The cylinder ports will not be 'off balance' with equal pressure on each one. With unequal pipes, there is different pressure on each cylinder and that throws the engine off balance. So if each of the exhaust pipes is exactly the same length, there is the exact same pressure and vibration on each cylinder. It won't have pressure X on these cylinders and pressure Y on others and pressure Z on the rest. All are equal and the engine is balanced.

Here are some other things we discussed:

He is Polish and learned his craft over there. That is why he is familiar with MB's and their needs and differences. He has worked on them over there and has done a lot of 124 work too.

Headers: He is going to take my car for a week and mold and bend the pipes to create the equal length headers. He says it will clear the steering box and he knows about the heat issues and says to stay away from chromed pipes because they retain more heat. Base price for a set of pipes will be $1200.00. He said if you want them out of Stainless that will be an additional 800 in material and maybe a little more for labor. He is going to take my set of pipes and make a jig so that he can replicate them for production for you guys. They can be finished however you want them for an additional fee and he will ship them anywhere. You will need a pro exhaust shop to have them installed though because I am sure it will need severe mods to it and it will be beyond most members capabilities here.

Heads: He is going to use the AMG heads we have to copy the porting and he will also polish them out and see if that is the optimum porting (not second guessing AMG, but hey! Gotta check to be sure because of "modern" techniques!). $800.00 to port and polish a set of heads to AMG specs.

Cams: He is going to copy the AMG cams we have and copy the angles and see if that is the optimum performance too. He can make them "Hotter" if wanted or needed. I am going with the stock AMG lobe profiles. I want mine to be as close to an old school AMG engine as can be produced today. $800.00 to grind a set of AMG replica cams.

Intake Manifold: He is gong to P&P that too and I am going to have the outside polished out to a high gloss as well as the VC's, C/C servo, brackets etc. $400.00 to port and polish the IM.

AFSP (Air Flow Sensor Plate): This is important and gauges the amount of air demand the engine needs and is taking in. This has a tension spring that holds it closed under a no load situation. As the engine revs and needs more air, a tension spring allows it to open, however this spring is usually hard and tight. But if it is too loose, it will be open too much and will richen the car too much at the wrong time throwing off the performance. If it is too tight, not enough air will get in the engine and it will starve performance too. So he says he knows how to adjust the tension on the spring to give optimum performance. He will do this as part of the $400.00 tuning fee.

Ignition: He says he is well versed in Bosch ECU/EZL's and can fine tune the car a little better than stock to adjust for the headers. He can also install an aftermarket one if wanted. $1500.00 to $2500.00 depending on the model selected plus a $400.00 "Tuning and Dyno fee".

Valves: He is going to do a "3 angle" valve job for $350.00.

Complete exhaust systems: He is going to fabricate my complete exhaust system from front to back. It will all be completely tuned and smog legal. Twin HP cats going back to the rear. Don't know how I am going to do the outlets. I have twin AMG chrome tips, but I would like quads. He says no problem if I can get another set. I may have the twin pipes (this will be a real twin pipe all the way back design) go into a single can with twin ins and outs and just use the twin tips I have now... But I REALLY like those quads...!

Real Horsepower increase: My car had a baseline of just under 200 HP at the wheels. Tom says that he believes he can get my car up to just under 300 HP at the wheels with all of these mods, with the HP at the crank at about 380. With a total price of between 5000 and 6000 installed, including the engine swap. I will be starting with the RÜF motor which is a HC motor. My goal was 350-375 HP so that is over what my best hope was so that will be well worth it. That will be about a 50% increase in HP for like 5 grand or so.

If anyone else wants any of these mods, let me know and I will put you in touch with Tom directly. I am NOT profiting from this at all... I am doing this for my car, and passing the info on to you guys so that others who want more performance in the AMG vain can get it. I am not saying that this will be an AMG motor, but a replica based on AMG designs with all of the advances of the past 20+ years incorporated using modern materials and techniques.

I will append to this as more info becomes available and I will start a thread on the engine mods as they progress..
 

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Wow, seems like a very competent shop. It's certainly very well equipped. The prices seem very reasonable as well for what you're getting done.
 

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Dam

All the english man can say is DAM.

Jonathan
 

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Wow, that's a great find, nice work.

If I kept one of these cars, I'd do the headers for sure. $1200 for no head gasket issues and 30HP+ seems like a great deal to me.

Thanks for write up, keep us informed as to progress!
 

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Wow, the curves of those equal length headers got me strangely aroused.
I hope there is nothing wrong with me.
Cheers
 

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Nice work Mike. You certainly do love that car, that's for sure. As a comparison, I was just talking to Satish today over at Motorwerks about various things. He mentioned that an M119 swap would be right around $5K, plus the cost of the motor. That is in the 325hp range "stock". Of course you could always tweak that and also do headers, exhaust, turbos, etc and that can quickly add up as well. Or, you could do as Mike R and do the "FrankenBenz". Swap in a euro motor like Greg had done. Or a few other tricks I'm investigating..! :)

Nitrous would be nice....I drove in a 500E that was already fast and had nitrous added. Holy cow, was that fun!
 

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I often wondered why MB never offered the M119 in the later versions (90-91) since the engine was already in use on the SL500. I saw the Satish m119/coupe install and it looked amazing ... like it came that way from the factory. What I like about the m119 is that it doesn't have the typical guide rail issues and is more refined with better electronics and knock sensors. I also love the look of that engine.

Of course keeping the m117 is more period correct for the coupe and do can do a lot to improve it... it's comes down to personal preference.
 

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Discussion Starter #33 (Edited)
Nice work Mike. You certainly do love that car, that's for sure. As a comparison, I was just talking to Satish today over at Motorwerks about various things. He mentioned that an M119 swap would be right around $5K, plus the cost of the motor. That is in the 325hp range "stock". Of course you could always tweak that and also do headers, exhaust, turbos, etc and that can quickly add up as well. Or, you could do as Mike R and do the "FrankenBenz". Swap in a euro motor like Greg had done. Or a few other tricks I'm investigating..! :)

Nitrous would be nice....I drove in a 500E that was already fast and had nitrous added. Holy cow, was that fun!
Hey Markus,

I have thought long and hard about the M119 or an M120 option and there are two main reasons that I am not going in that direction.

One is that as you well know, I want as close to a "Period Correct AMG" as possible as built today. I know my car will never be a "Real" AMG, but it will be as close to a "real" one as I can make it today.

The second is that Satish is back east and as you well know I am in California. Satish's car was the first one I saw over at MBCoupes as I was hip deep in rebuilding my car two summers ago. I would stare at his night after night and oooohhhh and aaaahhhh over it saying to myself "One Day". Drooling over it got me through some tough times.

But, I would have to find a good 119 motor and then ship it and the car to him and blah blah blah.. "We're going to send it away... And they're going to send it back...." It is not that I do not trust Satish, I do. But part of me justifies all of this journey is the education that I get.

If there was someone here that could do it, then I would seriously consider doing a 119 conversion. I love the way they look and I love the way Satish make is so that it is fully serviceable by any MB dealer (not that I go to them). If I go through this myself, then I can fully work on the motor myself and I am not totally beholden to a mechanic unless I choose to be.

The motor that I am "Swapping In" IS a Euro Motor. I have three of them available to me. The one from Dragi and two more KAT motors. So I will be starting with more HP than our US motors for sure.
 

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Looks a good project!

Just one thing: I don't know if that's the case here, but often people in the US assume that all euro 560 motors are 300hp. That's not the case. MB came with the 300 hp version when Porsche unveiled its new 928 which was also 300 hp. MB produced the 300hp engine only in 1986 and it was an option (code # 822) that had to be specifically requested. It was not available on all European markets due to emission restrictions. I believe it was never available in Germany for ex. I know it because I looked for one while I was still in Europe and they are not so commonly available. Often cars advertised as 300 hp are not. First hint is if it's not an '86 model then chances are great it's not the 300 hp engine. The way I did it was to run the VIN in the Russian site and see if the car came with option code 822. If yes then see on that site what the engine number that car came out with and crosscheck on the car in case it had already been swapped. Code option 822 means different camshafts, pistons, fuel distributor and ignition module. And of course it comes with the tri-Ys and no cats. Rear diff is 2.65 ratio.
 

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Looks a good project!

Just one thing: I don't know if that's the case here, but often people in the US assume that all euro 560 motors are 300hp. That's not the case. MB came with the 300 hp version when Porsche unveiled its new 928 which was also 300 hp. MB produced the 300hp engine only in 1986 and it was an option (code # 822) that had to be specifically requested. It was not available on all European markets due to emission restrictions. I believe it was never available in Germany for ex. I know it because I looked for one while I was still in Europe and they are not so commonly available. Often cars advertised as 300 hp are not. First hint is if it's not an '86 model then chances are great it's not the 300 hp engine. The way I did it was to run the VIN in the Russian site and see if the car came with option code 822. If yes then see on that site what the engine number that car came out with and crosscheck on the car in case it had already been swapped. Code option 822 means different camshafts, pistons, fuel distributor and ignition module. And of course it comes with the tri-Ys and no cats. Rear diff is 2.65 ratio.
You've got some things right but not all.... the ECE #822 motors were not just for 1986 model years, but from 1986-1988 from what I've read. Most UK 560 were in fact the 300hp version... I don't know about the fact that Germany didn't have the #822 motors. I've seen some parts cars from Germany that were the #822 but I didn't check to see if they were originally sold in Germany. My guess is yes, though.

I also found some Tri-Y's on cars that were not labeled with 822 in the Russian Vin decoder... so just because its not labeled doesn't mean it doesn't have the Tri-Y's.
 

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Discussion Starter #36
Looks a good project!

Just one thing: I don't know if that's the case here, but often people in the US assume that all euro 560 motors are 300hp. That's not the case. MB came with the 300 hp version when Porsche unveiled its new 928 which was also 300 hp. MB produced the 300hp engine only in 1986 and it was an option (code # 822) that had to be specifically requested. It was not available on all European markets due to emission restrictions. I believe it was never available in Germany for ex. I know it because I looked for one while I was still in Europe and they are not so commonly available. Often cars advertised as 300 hp are not. First hint is if it's not an '86 model then chances are great it's not the 300 hp engine. The way I did it was to run the VIN in the Russian site and see if the car came with option code 822. If yes then see on that site what the engine number that car came out with and crosscheck on the car in case it had already been swapped. Code option 822 means different camshafts, pistons, fuel distributor and ignition module. And of course it comes with the tri-Ys and no cats. Rear diff is 2.65 ratio.
Yes, we know about the three different versions of the Euro motors and I never said they were the 300HP models. The one from Dragi is the RÜF motor with 278 base HP (I believe) and the other two are the KAT motors with 272 base HP (I believe). I don't believe that I said they were the 300 variety. We went through all of this ident process in both my thread and Bondavi's thread.
 

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That's good then (and I'm not targeting anyone, I was just trying to help in case there was some confusion, and because I got misleading info by some sellers who didn't know exactly what they had when I was looking for mine).

I think cats were already needed in Germany in 1986. So that's why I believe they were not sold there (and them having tri Ys doesn't exlude some others from having them also).

Anyway, that's surely a nice project, and that Polish guy seems to be doing an astonishing job.

Just to know, for how much does a set of original used 560 tri-Ys with downpipes in good shape go for in the US?
 

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300 HP Euro engines avaible to '91

From October 1985 until August 1987:
KAT 560: 242hp (9,0:1) / cat conv
RÜF 560: 272hp (9,0:1) / no cat conv, but convertible
ECE 560: 300hp (10,0:1) / not convertible to cat conv (today it can be done with aftermarket parts, but not in 1985-87)

From September 1987 until end of production:
KAT 560: 279hp (10,0:1) / cat conv / knock sensors
RÜF 560: 300hp (10,0:1) / no cat conv, but convertible / knock sensors
ECE 560: deleted

The most obvious differences between ECE and RÜF/KAT are the knock sensors (only on the 1987-91 RÜF/KAT)and the camshafts. HV means "Hoch verdichtet" - high compression , while NV means "Niedrig verdichtet" - low compression, for lower fuel quality.
 

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Thank You McClare; excellent source. Not trying to hijack this thread but need to know if I can install US 560 engine spec camshafts into a euro 500 SEL motor? would there be any HP gains by doing so since I heard euro 500 motor is equal to or better in HP to the US spec 560 motor? anyone out there with info on lift/duration profiles of euro 500 cams vs. US spec 560 cams?
 

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dropping US cams into a euro 500 (depending on the year and market) would in Most cases net you a Loss in peak HP...


Jonathan
 
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