Brake rotors/pads
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I tried the greenstuff pads with Zimmerman cross drilled rotors.The rotors made a humming noise when I applied the brakes(I personally did not like the noise) and the pads squealed very badly. I tried a some factory rotors and the pads still squealed badly. I found a pad sold here in Vegas by an import parts house that are dust free and are perfectly quiet. They are made Centric.
Yes, I tried everything. I worked with EBC and they even sent me some shims which did not work. Tire Rack ultimately gave me a refund. If you don't care about dust the ATE pads are supposed to be good and they come with built in shims. I have tried many combinations of pads and rotors. If you want high performance rotors the PowerSlot (Tire Rack sells them) seem to be the best that I tried for being smooth stopping and not too noisy. The Zimmermans cross drilled(std equip. on Porsche) are smoothe but pretty noisy. The ATE PowerDiscs were NOT smoothe at all. They felt warped.
I have to say the Centric pads stop excellent make no noise and have virtually no dust. You can go to their website and check it out if you like. www.centricparts.com. Good luck.
I have to say the Centric pads stop excellent make no noise and have virtually no dust. You can go to their website and check it out if you like. www.centricparts.com. Good luck.
Which Centric pads did you use?
They make quite a few different units, ceramic, organic,semi-metallic, extended wear etc....
Did you use their shims?
Thanks.
They make quite a few different units, ceramic, organic,semi-metallic, extended wear etc....
Did you use their shims?
Thanks.
I used the semi metallic's. They did not come with shims and were not available. I was skeptible with them not having shims but the guy at the parts house said if I was not happy with them I could return them and get the ATE's. I just used CRC synthetic brake caliper grease on the backing plates, all bolts, and contacts. There was some very minor noise untill the pads and rotors seated.
Joined
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4,069 Posts
Brembo and AP Racing do a conversion for the front of the W210. Nothing can compare to the stopping power of those things, but you'll need a minimum of 18 inch rims to clear the larger rotors & calipers.
I'm currently saving up for a conversion for my E280.
I'm currently saving up for a conversion for my E280.
BLACK DUST BE GONE!!!!
I just replaced mine with Axxis/Repco Deluxe. $100 or so for front and rears delivered. Took less than 2 hours to do all 4 wheels. http://www.brakewarehouse.com/ Am experiencing a little bit of squeal, but I used the spray stuff instead of paste. I'll take a little squeal anyday instead of that damn black dust from hell!
I just replaced mine with Axxis/Repco Deluxe. $100 or so for front and rears delivered. Took less than 2 hours to do all 4 wheels. http://www.brakewarehouse.com/ Am experiencing a little bit of squeal, but I used the spray stuff instead of paste. I'll take a little squeal anyday instead of that damn black dust from hell!
Just my 2 cents - I installed Mintex red box pads on my 97 E420 and I've got no dust and no squeel. Mintex was the only one I found that could supply pads for single pin rear calipers (which my car has). Cost was less than $80 for the set - and they're perfect. Mintex might not have the sexy name of some of the others but if you use your car on the street most of the time and really only care about stopping and getting rid of the dust - I'd highly recommend them.
I chose Axxis Deluxe since I was told they'd be less likely to squeal. They're slightly lower performance than the Metal Masters, but I don't plan to take my car on the track. One problem I had with the MM's in the past is that they temporarily lose "bite" in heavy rain, which can be pretty scary.
In the end, I did get squeal (in the back only) with the Deluxe, and after trying every paste known to man and then a few, I replaced the rear rotors with brand new ones and used MB paste on the pads. Now there's no squeal, no dust, and performance is just as good as original pads if not better. I couldn't find anybody who sells shims for the pads, so they have no shims.
In the end, I did get squeal (in the back only) with the Deluxe, and after trying every paste known to man and then a few, I replaced the rear rotors with brand new ones and used MB paste on the pads. Now there's no squeal, no dust, and performance is just as good as original pads if not better. I couldn't find anybody who sells shims for the pads, so they have no shims.
Guys, I'd like to know the difference between the drilled,crossed and the drilled/crossed rotors if possible.
Another question is, do you guys have any information abuot the KLEEMAN's brake kits, and which would you prefer to install on your car, Brembo's or Kleeman's, and how much do they cost
Another question is, do you guys have any information abuot the KLEEMAN's brake kits, and which would you prefer to install on your car, Brembo's or Kleeman's, and how much do they cost
Hi, I'm new to this forum but am in the same spot you are, so I thought I'd throw in my two cents. I apologize for the long post, but wanted it to be complete.
After looking around a bit and talking with some other motorheads I went with Brembo drilled, not slotted, rotors and Axxix ultimate pads.
This is what I found while doing my research.
Slotted rotors will keep your pads clean and glaze-free, but they will accelerate pad wear. Slotted rotors do not run any cooler than stock.
Drilled rotors will run cooler and will tend to have a minor cleaning effect on the pads. The chief reason for the drilling is keeping the rotor cooler, and cooler brakes typically means better braking performance.
One of the other folks mentioned noise. I will say that whenever I've been in a vehicle with drilled or slotted rotors, I've always been able to hear a little "pfft...pfft...pfft" type noise as the brakes were applied at moderate or slower speeds (below 45 or so). Thus, if you want absolute silence, you probably want to avoid drilled or slotted.
Of course, all that said, a primary reason I went to drilled rotors was that I had to replace the rears anyway (slightly warped) and since I've replaced my wheels and the brakes are visible, I thought it would look better. And besides, cooler brakes are always a good thing.
After going back and forth with pads, I chose the Axxis Ultimates (ceramic compound). They're supposed to offer greatly reduced dust but excellent performance across the normal temperature spectrum, including good performance when cold. One key is to avoid the really harder compound pads, as they will wear down the rotors faster. My decision was down to either PBR, Porterfeld or Axxis and it was almost a coin toss at the end. If I drove hard or did track days, I probably would pick a harder compound that would work better at higher temps. They have a nice comparo chart on their site at: http://www.axxisbrakes.com/technical.htm.
As far as the sensors go, if you're getting the display warning, from what I've heard you should go ahead and replace them. Most of the online folks have them for under $3 each. I think autohausaz.com is the cheapest, but you have to bump it up to $50 if you want free shipping. Not hard for me because I'm *always* buying something.
Of course I've yet to actually install all of this (rotors just arrived and I'm waiting on the pads). If you're not quite ready I'll be happy to follow up with the results after I finish it, but it may not be until mid April.
Finally, I haven't had any experience with Kleemans but helped a friend do a Brembo big-brake upgrade kit on a Denali. Great kit, great product, stunningly expensive and it used the stock calipers. Came complete with new two-piece oversize vented front rotors (drilled, plated to reduce rust), stock-sized but drilled and vented/plated rear rotors, Brembo front and rear pads, relocation brackets for the front calipers, stainless steel lines and only barely-adequate instructions. If you're a decent wrench it's certainly within your chops, but as the other post notes, you'll need bigger wheels. Some 17s will fit them, but 18s are safest from a sure-to-fit standpoint. Personally I wasn't willing to sacrifice that much ride quality so I stayed with stock brake sizing.
Hope you're still awake.
Good luck and enjoy the ride.
Greg
After looking around a bit and talking with some other motorheads I went with Brembo drilled, not slotted, rotors and Axxix ultimate pads.
This is what I found while doing my research.
Slotted rotors will keep your pads clean and glaze-free, but they will accelerate pad wear. Slotted rotors do not run any cooler than stock.
Drilled rotors will run cooler and will tend to have a minor cleaning effect on the pads. The chief reason for the drilling is keeping the rotor cooler, and cooler brakes typically means better braking performance.
One of the other folks mentioned noise. I will say that whenever I've been in a vehicle with drilled or slotted rotors, I've always been able to hear a little "pfft...pfft...pfft" type noise as the brakes were applied at moderate or slower speeds (below 45 or so). Thus, if you want absolute silence, you probably want to avoid drilled or slotted.
Of course, all that said, a primary reason I went to drilled rotors was that I had to replace the rears anyway (slightly warped) and since I've replaced my wheels and the brakes are visible, I thought it would look better. And besides, cooler brakes are always a good thing.
After going back and forth with pads, I chose the Axxis Ultimates (ceramic compound). They're supposed to offer greatly reduced dust but excellent performance across the normal temperature spectrum, including good performance when cold. One key is to avoid the really harder compound pads, as they will wear down the rotors faster. My decision was down to either PBR, Porterfeld or Axxis and it was almost a coin toss at the end. If I drove hard or did track days, I probably would pick a harder compound that would work better at higher temps. They have a nice comparo chart on their site at: http://www.axxisbrakes.com/technical.htm.
As far as the sensors go, if you're getting the display warning, from what I've heard you should go ahead and replace them. Most of the online folks have them for under $3 each. I think autohausaz.com is the cheapest, but you have to bump it up to $50 if you want free shipping. Not hard for me because I'm *always* buying something.
Of course I've yet to actually install all of this (rotors just arrived and I'm waiting on the pads). If you're not quite ready I'll be happy to follow up with the results after I finish it, but it may not be until mid April.
Finally, I haven't had any experience with Kleemans but helped a friend do a Brembo big-brake upgrade kit on a Denali. Great kit, great product, stunningly expensive and it used the stock calipers. Came complete with new two-piece oversize vented front rotors (drilled, plated to reduce rust), stock-sized but drilled and vented/plated rear rotors, Brembo front and rear pads, relocation brackets for the front calipers, stainless steel lines and only barely-adequate instructions. If you're a decent wrench it's certainly within your chops, but as the other post notes, you'll need bigger wheels. Some 17s will fit them, but 18s are safest from a sure-to-fit standpoint. Personally I wasn't willing to sacrifice that much ride quality so I stayed with stock brake sizing.
Hope you're still awake.
Good luck and enjoy the ride.
Greg
Despite their OEM presence on late Porsches, drilled rotors on a street car that is not tracked are totally unnecessary (unless you live on top of Pikes Peak and commute to the valley every day). BTW the Porsche holes are not drilled, but cast, which greatly reduces the big big problem with rotor holes, which is such rotors have been known to crack, sometimes quite easily. The Porsche holes also are chamfered which is offered by some aftermarket sources who drill holes. I know, I know, drilled rotors look c-c-c-c-ool, but, really, now.
Also, I put Powerslot rotors on a car last year and couldn't help but notice the word Brembo cast into them. I used Green Stuff pads and some antisqueal on the outside surface silenced their initial noise.
Finally, just curious why you want to reduce cooling airflow to your brakes by using Kleen Wheels?
EDIT: I recommend that you also replace the OEM brake lines with SS lines. This is a major improvement on any car and I am surprised no one has mentioned it in this thread.
Also, I put Powerslot rotors on a car last year and couldn't help but notice the word Brembo cast into them. I used Green Stuff pads and some antisqueal on the outside surface silenced their initial noise.
Finally, just curious why you want to reduce cooling airflow to your brakes by using Kleen Wheels?
EDIT: I recommend that you also replace the OEM brake lines with SS lines. This is a major improvement on any car and I am surprised no one has mentioned it in this thread.
Since my earlier post above, I've found out that Axxis Deluxe and any other rear pad that doesn't have the shims like the OEM will SQUEEEEEEEEEAL. I finally opted for Centric posiQuiet with the shims in the rear, and it's nice and quiet once again. These are semi metallic and low dust. Axxis work fine on the front. Be sure to use the MB factory gray paste on the back of the pads front and rear.
560 SEC Supercharged(sold), E55 AMG, Renntech CL600 Bi-turbo, Porsche 928
Joined
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1,991 Posts
There is a common misconception concerning drilled or cast in hole rotors. Here is some very good information from the net:
"I have been bombarded with lots and lots of people asking me the differences between drilled vs. slotted. I will do my best to explain all I can in my words and opinions, which are shared by many top-notch racers and builders around the world. Although there are those who oppose our views, this is not to become a finger pointing session. Nearly an informative episode for those of you left scratching your heads about rotors.
Ever since the mid 50’s there has been a constant debate about what makes a proper rotor. The future MAY BE carbon fiber and ceramic compounds, but the present for most of us is cast iron.
The first upgrade from a basic rotor is usually vents – the rotor consists of 2 flat outside surfaces with vanes in between. That vent and vane arrangement is for cooling, and works by drawing hot air from the center of the rotor to be expelled from the outer diameter – acting as a centrifugal air pump, not by scooping air in.
Slots – A radial groove cut into the surface of the disc – serve a couple of purposes. One of those is to help remove debris from the disc surface; the other is to help expel gases created when braking.
In older material used to create performance braking systems, drivers and engineers noticed a gas boundary layer that appeared at the interface area of the pad and rotor (Where the pad and rotor came in contact). However these days it is not as big of a problem, slots are more than adequate to carry that gas away.
In those years where the older materials where used, that gas boundary, along with reducing weight, led to the popularity of drilled rotors. However, in the intervening period, the myth has persisted that cooling is the main reason for drilling rotors. Anyone that tells you that drilling rotors makes the disc run cooler, needs their medication checked! Although there is a belief among some that drilling can have a slight effect of cooling by drawing additional air in to the vanes, even those that subscribe to that theory say drilled rotors are more of a liability than a benefit.
Drilled holes tend to be stress risers and they tend to be a stress concentrator. Therefore a drilled rotor will tend to have a shorter life than an undrilled rotor. The contribution a drilled rotor made to the system, reducing gas and debris, can be accomplished with a slot. Not only will rotor life be shorter, but also an on-track failure is likely to be more catastrophic than most with a non-drilled disc.
To drill or not to drill? The simple answer is that you – the end user, consumer, racer, whatever – should never drill rotors. You may choose to purchase drilled rotors, but even that is becoming a trend of the past left to the car show crowd, and those guys from Germany! LOL! NASCAR, CART, IRL, WRC, and others are switching to slotted rotors instead of drilled rotors, mainly because of their proneness to cracking. Slotting actually removes less surface area than cross drilling, while maintaining its strength and high coefficient of friction. Thus, you have cooler running rotors.
The bottom line here is that drilled discs will run hotter because there is less surface area through which to manage and displace the heat generated by braking forces. This is why I am a firm believer in the value and effectiveness of slotted rotors. If companies attempt to displace those heating properties more by drilling bigger wholes, then the overall integrity of the rotor becomes more compromised, especially if they are using a smaller diameter rotor."
More:
"The drilled rotor so commonly seen on Porsche's is NOT really drilled at all. It is a CAST hole. Porsche did this to help minimize the effects a hole has in creating a stress riser in the surface of the brake rotor. A drilled hole goes directly through and interrupts the grain structure of the metal. Where as a cast hole has the grain structure formed around it in an uninterrupted flow. All holes in a brake rotor will eventually show signs of stress cracking. A drilled hole will crack much sooner than a cast one. Admittedly, a "drilled" rotor will cool better than a smooth rotor, and has slightly better "bite". However, the person who blindly goes ahead and drills his stock rotors is asking for trouble, especially in high heat or severe brake conditions. It's not unusual for these rotors to eventually crack completely across the surface, causing a dangerous situation. Therefore, it is not recommended to drill unless it is an under-stressed condition (i.e. a 2500lb Capri with 13" Cobra rotors) or, for a street car just for looks. The best compromise for serious track people who don't want to replace their rotors every season is to go with a "slotted" or gas vent rotor. These vents can be machined in various configurations. A ball shaped cutter is used to prevent any stress risers. The purpose of these vents is the same as the cast holes: to give gases, water, and other dirt a place to go under hard braking. This is the most durable track or race rotor."
Another:
Fact: Experience has proven that crossdrilled rotors can develop cracks under hard track use.
Fact: Modern brake pads no longer out-gas as badly as they did decades ago, so the argument that crossdrilling to vent gasses is required is no longer valid.
Fact: Larger rotors (diameter, thickness) dissipate heat more quickly than smaller rotors. Crossdrilling reduces surface area and mass, so the argument that it improves cooling or braking performance is not valid either.
Crossdrilling and even slotting are appearance modifications only these days. People justify them by using arguments like the ones above because it makes them feel like they got more for their money, but the facts are that a solid rotor will perform just as well as a drilled or slotted rotor of the same size. However, people want the performance look, so they buy drilled/slotted rotors, even if they provide no increase in performance. Does painting a brake caliper red improve its clamping force?
Quote:
and sorry, but brembo does do their own drilling in house with their brake kits.
Brembo does not make stock replacement crossdrilled rotors for the FD. The ones you see for sale on Ebay and elsewhere are drilled by a third party prior to sale. I believe that is what people were trying to say. Brembo obviously does produce crossdrilled rotors for other applications.
Quote:
"if they were so called "junk", then i doubt ferarri would consider them. "
That's the best you can do? You accuse people of calling crossdrilled rotors "junk" even after they provide evidence to support their opinions, and your only counter-argument is that Ferrari uses them, therefore they must be good?!?
"I have been bombarded with lots and lots of people asking me the differences between drilled vs. slotted. I will do my best to explain all I can in my words and opinions, which are shared by many top-notch racers and builders around the world. Although there are those who oppose our views, this is not to become a finger pointing session. Nearly an informative episode for those of you left scratching your heads about rotors.
Ever since the mid 50’s there has been a constant debate about what makes a proper rotor. The future MAY BE carbon fiber and ceramic compounds, but the present for most of us is cast iron.
The first upgrade from a basic rotor is usually vents – the rotor consists of 2 flat outside surfaces with vanes in between. That vent and vane arrangement is for cooling, and works by drawing hot air from the center of the rotor to be expelled from the outer diameter – acting as a centrifugal air pump, not by scooping air in.
Slots – A radial groove cut into the surface of the disc – serve a couple of purposes. One of those is to help remove debris from the disc surface; the other is to help expel gases created when braking.
In older material used to create performance braking systems, drivers and engineers noticed a gas boundary layer that appeared at the interface area of the pad and rotor (Where the pad and rotor came in contact). However these days it is not as big of a problem, slots are more than adequate to carry that gas away.
In those years where the older materials where used, that gas boundary, along with reducing weight, led to the popularity of drilled rotors. However, in the intervening period, the myth has persisted that cooling is the main reason for drilling rotors. Anyone that tells you that drilling rotors makes the disc run cooler, needs their medication checked! Although there is a belief among some that drilling can have a slight effect of cooling by drawing additional air in to the vanes, even those that subscribe to that theory say drilled rotors are more of a liability than a benefit.
Drilled holes tend to be stress risers and they tend to be a stress concentrator. Therefore a drilled rotor will tend to have a shorter life than an undrilled rotor. The contribution a drilled rotor made to the system, reducing gas and debris, can be accomplished with a slot. Not only will rotor life be shorter, but also an on-track failure is likely to be more catastrophic than most with a non-drilled disc.
To drill or not to drill? The simple answer is that you – the end user, consumer, racer, whatever – should never drill rotors. You may choose to purchase drilled rotors, but even that is becoming a trend of the past left to the car show crowd, and those guys from Germany! LOL! NASCAR, CART, IRL, WRC, and others are switching to slotted rotors instead of drilled rotors, mainly because of their proneness to cracking. Slotting actually removes less surface area than cross drilling, while maintaining its strength and high coefficient of friction. Thus, you have cooler running rotors.
The bottom line here is that drilled discs will run hotter because there is less surface area through which to manage and displace the heat generated by braking forces. This is why I am a firm believer in the value and effectiveness of slotted rotors. If companies attempt to displace those heating properties more by drilling bigger wholes, then the overall integrity of the rotor becomes more compromised, especially if they are using a smaller diameter rotor."
More:
"The drilled rotor so commonly seen on Porsche's is NOT really drilled at all. It is a CAST hole. Porsche did this to help minimize the effects a hole has in creating a stress riser in the surface of the brake rotor. A drilled hole goes directly through and interrupts the grain structure of the metal. Where as a cast hole has the grain structure formed around it in an uninterrupted flow. All holes in a brake rotor will eventually show signs of stress cracking. A drilled hole will crack much sooner than a cast one. Admittedly, a "drilled" rotor will cool better than a smooth rotor, and has slightly better "bite". However, the person who blindly goes ahead and drills his stock rotors is asking for trouble, especially in high heat or severe brake conditions. It's not unusual for these rotors to eventually crack completely across the surface, causing a dangerous situation. Therefore, it is not recommended to drill unless it is an under-stressed condition (i.e. a 2500lb Capri with 13" Cobra rotors) or, for a street car just for looks. The best compromise for serious track people who don't want to replace their rotors every season is to go with a "slotted" or gas vent rotor. These vents can be machined in various configurations. A ball shaped cutter is used to prevent any stress risers. The purpose of these vents is the same as the cast holes: to give gases, water, and other dirt a place to go under hard braking. This is the most durable track or race rotor."
Another:
Fact: Experience has proven that crossdrilled rotors can develop cracks under hard track use.
Fact: Modern brake pads no longer out-gas as badly as they did decades ago, so the argument that crossdrilling to vent gasses is required is no longer valid.
Fact: Larger rotors (diameter, thickness) dissipate heat more quickly than smaller rotors. Crossdrilling reduces surface area and mass, so the argument that it improves cooling or braking performance is not valid either.
Crossdrilling and even slotting are appearance modifications only these days. People justify them by using arguments like the ones above because it makes them feel like they got more for their money, but the facts are that a solid rotor will perform just as well as a drilled or slotted rotor of the same size. However, people want the performance look, so they buy drilled/slotted rotors, even if they provide no increase in performance. Does painting a brake caliper red improve its clamping force?
Quote:
and sorry, but brembo does do their own drilling in house with their brake kits.
Brembo does not make stock replacement crossdrilled rotors for the FD. The ones you see for sale on Ebay and elsewhere are drilled by a third party prior to sale. I believe that is what people were trying to say. Brembo obviously does produce crossdrilled rotors for other applications.
Quote:
"if they were so called "junk", then i doubt ferarri would consider them. "
That's the best you can do? You accuse people of calling crossdrilled rotors "junk" even after they provide evidence to support their opinions, and your only counter-argument is that Ferrari uses them, therefore they must be good?!?
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