[karel]

Hi,
I am sorry because I am sure it is somewhere, but I could not find it. What is the proper brake fluid for my E320 1999 wagon, non 4 matic?
Here is what AutohausAZ has.http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=exksz045iffq0k55liaoe1qa&[email protected]&[email protected] &year=1999&[email protected] %26 Chemicals&[email protected] Fluid

 

[G-AMG]

Hi,
I am sorry because I am sure it is somewhere, but I could not find it. What is the proper brake fluid for my E320 1999 wagon, non 4 matic?
Here is what AutohausAZ has.http://www.autohausaz.com/search/product.aspx?sid=exksz045iffq0k55liaoe1qa&[email protected]&[email protected] &year=1999&[email protected] %26 Chemicals&[email protected] Fluid

Soooo many choices!

Honestly? That is why I just buy my Brake Fluid from the Dealer.... that way I'm 100% certain I am putting in the CORRECT stuff! Plus, the cost is about the same as those Autohaus Offerings.

 

[karel]

Soooo many choices!

Honestly? That is why I just buy my Brake Fluid from the Dealer.... that way I'm 100% certain I am putting in the CORRECT stuff! Plus, the cost is about the same as those Autohaus Offerings.

Thanks for the quick reply. I just checked dealer here is Sacto and they want $24 per liter. I guess I just bite the bullet as it is only once in two years. I had some other things at AutohausAZ so I though I would get the whole order together. But I see your point.

 

[Kajtek1]

I think I paid much less at MB of Vacavile a year ago.
Still how far you want to drive for 5 bucks savings? l

 

[Simon_E]

Which brake fluid to use? It says that on the cap of the reservoir: a DOT 4 fluid. There is absolutely no need to buy it from the MB dealer, because MB does not produce the fluid that it sells. The main suppliers of brake fluid (original fill) for MB (and for other European car manufacturers) are Pentosin and ATE. Both are thus excellent choices.

I use the ATE Racing fluid, which exceeds the required specifications. It costs a few dollars more but only needs to be changed every three years, which equalizes the price difference. By the way, this is not because ATE's recommendations are laxer than MB's: with regular DOT4 fluid which MB says need to be exchanged every two years ATE actually recommends annual changes.

PS. I just found out that the Super Blue variety of the ATE racing fluid has recently been deemed illegal in the US, apparently because the federal govt. has decided that US citizens are too dumb to handle blue brake fluid: ATE -ATE Brake Fluid . Pretty incredible. Alternating between Super Blue and Super Gold is very convenient when flushing the system: when the color changes you know you can move on to the next caliper. At least I still get to benefit from this one more time, as I currently have the blue fluid in my system.

 

[G-AMG]

Simon.

Obviously, everyone is free to put whatever they want into their vehicles... But i think a reasonable percentage of folks on BW tend to stick with the BeVo list of Approved Products.

M-B usually does a good job of listing non-Mb products within BeVo, several of which are the likely producers of what is in the MB bottle, so agree with you in that regard.

Now, brake fluid? As you know, simply being marked as "DOT4" does not mean it will work the same as the M-B products. Different formulations, different ingredients, even DYES, as you mentioned.

Can we be certain there is no unintended interactions on our expensive brake parts? (of which my personal opinion says "there is no other car system more important than the braking components")

I just checked BeVo, and ther is ONE and only ONE listed "Approved" fluid on sheet 331.0.

 

[RichardM98]

Pentosin DOT 4LV is OEM and is about $13 at autohausaz if that helps you. But no harm in using the dealer if you feel more comfortable.

 

[Kajtek1]

Funny how we can talk forever about spending 5 bucks more or less on fluid that is needed every few years, but spend close to a 100 on every fill up seldom thinking about it.
How many check gasbuddy site for prices before going for fuel?

 

[hailphire130]

Funny how we can talk forever about spending 5 bucks more or less on fluid that is needed every few years, but spend close to a 100 on every fill up seldom thinking about it.
How many check gasbuddy site for prices before going for fuel?

Haha I find that funny, too. My fill ups have been around $40-$50 here in NJ. I check Gasbuddy mostly out of curiosity. I pretty much always fill up at the same Sunoco. It's gets a lot of traffic, so I get the impression that the gas might be fresher. Plus, the price isn't the lowest, but also not close to the highest.

 

[Simon_E]

Hi G-AMG,

I agree that one should not compromise on any part of the braking system, and I recently bought new OE discs and brake pads (although the latter are apparently from Jurid), regardless of the dust. I also usually consult and follow the BEVO list. But I had never checked the brake fluid specification, and I find it curious that there is no approved fluid except the MB fluid--and this while the manual and the reservoir cap advise the owner to use DOT4 fluid.

Of course I did not mean to imply that I would pick any DOT4 fluid I could find, and of course I have no particular expertise. But what I meant to say is that Pentosin and ATE are THE producers of brake fluids in Europe. For me, picking their products is not a compromise, but rather like buying spark plugs directly from Bosch rather than in the MB package (knowing that MB does not produce spark plugs itself). Given that ATE and Pentosin have been and are delivering the factory fills for MB, Porsche, BMW cars etc., I would consider it far-fetched to deem the products that they market directly--especially those that not only meet, but exceed the DOT specifications by a significant margin--a risky choice only on the grounds that they are not on the BEVO list. I use ATE fluid not because it happens to be cheaper, but because I trust the manufacturer, and my experience so far has justified this trust. But in the end, of course, everybody should pick what one feels most comfortable with.

 

[e-420]

DOT brake fluids for a give class are virtually interchangeable as far as compatibility. Within each category some mfg do end up with higher boiling points, less water absorption etc. but that the difference.
DOT3 is the lowest rating that is reasonably available and vehicles made in the last 30 years or so have called out either DOT3 or DOT4 fluid. If it calls out DOT3 I know of NO case where DOT4 can't be used.

I see no reason to stick with MB brake fluid specifically, since many equally good fluids are readily available for much lower cost. Kinda like Shell134 transmission fluid vs. MB fluid. Identical product, just with different lables and different prices.


for the ultimate in brake fluid performance, you can also use DOT5.1 (NOT DOT5.0 which is silicone based) DOT5.1 is much more expensive and less available than DOT3 or DOT4.

Personally I use DOT5.1 in my off road motorcycle since I can easily boil DOT4 fluid, while DOT 5.1 is much much harder to boil.

Unless your going for track use, I see no reason to use DOT5.1 in our cars.

And, I do agree, to bad we can't get the ATE blue and gold fluid. was nice to use.

 

[G-AMG]

Simon, Hey!

Yes, I too found it odd that there were NO other vendors listed on the Sheet 331.0.
Don't get me wrong... I have no delusion that just because there is a M-B stamp on something, it makes it somehow "superior". I too will hands-down buy any of the other BeVo-Listed approved products, over M-B Bottled version, usually at a fraction of the cost.

I checked M98's reference to the Pentosin 4LV. On their Product Sheet? Mercedes is not even LISTED. http://www.pentosin.net/specsheets/pentosin_dot4_lv.pdf

I also checked the other Pentosin products, and have not seen any *APPROVAL* by M-B, only this: "OE REFERENCE NUMBERS/RECOMMENDATIONS".

"To Me", this is similar to an ATF fluid claim of "Meets Spec 236.10", rather than actually being "Approved".


Sooooo, I just went out and went to "The Horse's Mouth", and looked at the M-B Bottle (see attached photos).

First, as you can see, the Mercedes fluid is "DOT 4 *PLUS*". I cannot find ANY manufacturer for such a product. Right off the bat, I feel comfortable saying: ATE and PENTOSIN are **NOT** the manufacturers of the Brake Fluid inside the Sheet 331.0 APPROVED fluid bottle.

Flipping the Bottle Around?? What does it say?? " Manufactured by CCI Manufacturing IL Corp."
Trying to research that company? It appears to be a Japanese company. On THEIR site, they use the words "Approved by Daimler".

Now, I had a look at ANOTHER reference (see the BG Products attachment), and it claims BASF Europe is the maker of the DOT 4 PLUS fluid, in Europe.


The take-home message from my babbling??? I am, now, 100% convinced MB has a "Proprietary" Formulation for it's Brake Fluid, and thus, I am using M-B and *ONLY* M-B bottled fluid in ALL my vehicles!

 

[Kajtek1]

G... nice research.
I can only scratch my head why such superior product is not allowed in W211

 

[G-AMG]

G... nice research.
I can only scratch my head why such superior product is not allowed in W211

Kaj,

Since I know nothing of the W211.... could it be they "tried" DOT 5 fluid on those models? Were they not one of the first "SBC" vehicles?

 

[Kajtek1]

SBC is right. I did not buy the fluid for W211 yet, but have seen bottles labeled as hydraulic fluid.
Now Ford dealer sold me PS fluid, where the bottle is labeled as ATF fluid, but the salesman warned me to not put it into the transmission.
Remember the times when single bottle of ATF could top off most of the fluids on the car?

 

[e-420]

I've seen DOT4 plus in good auto shops. In addition there is DOT4 Class 6 designed for vehicles with ABS and is higher viscosity (flow easier) for ABS units. It's been around for at least 10 years. ATE sells it, it's also labeled as DOT4 Class 6

And then there is DOT5.1 It would be interesting to compare Dot4+ spec's with DOT5.1 Dot 5.1 has a much higher boiling point than Dot4 and is compatible with Dot4.

 

[nugent]

DOT 4+ has lower viscosity at low temperature than regular DOT 4. So if you live in Alaska, Canada or northern Europe, the 4+ may be advisable.

Otherwise, any DOT 4 will be ok. There is no rocket science here. Brake fluid, like gasoline, is fungible.

I hear the argument that if you are cheap, a Mercedes is not for you. Well, you don't have to be silly, either.

 

[Kajtek1]

than we can differ

on what is silly?
How many members have lab to test the fluids. or send samples out?
Changing factory recommendations without knowledge of the subject - that's silly IMHO.

 

[raymond-]

I've seen DOT4 plus in good auto shops. In addition there is DOT4 Class 6 designed for vehicles with ABS and is higher viscosity (flow easier) for ABS units. It's been around for at least 10 years. ATE sells it, it's also labeled as DOT4 Class 6 <......>

higher viscosity = lower flow rate aka thicker.

DOT4 Class 6 = lower viscosity

aside from that, yes, you've got the right idea

 

[Simon_E]

Hi G-AMG,

That’s all interesting. But note that the "CCI corporation" fluid you have is the MB fluid marketed by MB USA. One can be certain that MB cars assembled in Germany were and are not filled with brake fluid produced in Illinois. For MB USA, of course, it makes sense, as for any manufacturer, to find local suppliers for globally available input: no customs problems, no tariffs, few transportation issues, and the (significant) vacillations in the exchange rate are not a problem either. In Germany, however, you can assume that the fluid comes from a local producer. On pictures of the MB bottle (spec. 331.0) on sites of German online stores one can read clearly “Made in Germany.” By whom? The one reference you quote says something about BASF but is eleven years old. Of course in the end what matters is not by whom it is produced, but how it performs. And of course you are right that for some time Daimler has officially been recommending “DOT 4 plus” fluid for all passenger cars—although this does not change the fact that at the time my car (and I presume the OP's car as well) was produced “DOT 4” was deemed sufficient for proper brake operation.

But what does “DOT 4 +/DOT 4 Plus” mean? “DOT” means “Department of Transportation,” but apparently the DOT never issued such a specification, meaning that it does not exist. A MB BEVO document (no. BB00.40-P-0330-01A) says that “DOT 4 plus” is an “internal designation” and explains that these fluids “are enhanced DOT 4 brake fluids with a higher wet boiling point.” But does that make “DOT 4 plus” a “proprietary” Mercedes thing? No, because other companies sell “DOT 4 plus” fluids as well, for instance Pentosin: Deutsche Pentosin-Werke GmbH . ATE, too, offers such enhanced DOT 4 fluids--one used to be called "Super DOT 4," now it has been replaced by a new version labeled "SL6." These ATE fluids are advertised as optimized for application in modern cars with ABS and ESP, and the boiling points correspond to those of "DOT 4 +" fluids. Then there are fluids labeled DOT 4 LV (low viscosity), which have higher boiling points as well, but also extra low viscosity, which makes them particularly well-suited for low outside temperatures. And then there are fluids with even higher boiling points, such as the said Ate Super Racing fluid (SuperGold/SuperBlue, the fluid is the same): ATE Brakes -Original ATE brake fluid .

In the end, I do share your belief that one cannot go wrong with using MB products for MB cars, including official MB brake fluid. I also take your point that MB DOES recommend a “DOT 4 PLUS” fluid now, and of course there are indeed good reasons to use such high performance brake fluids, especially in Germany where MB cars are developed and travel at much higher speeds, meaning that they and their brake systems have to deal with much higher kinetic energies than on US highways. But I don’t see any reason to believe in the existence of a "proprietary" MB version of brake fluid, especially given that long-established and respected brake fluid manufacturers produce "DOT 4 plus" fluids as well, and I don’t see any reason not to use fluids by Pentosin or ATE, especially those with (much) higher boiling points and lower viscosity than the standard DOT 4 fluids, with equal confidence.