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1988 560SEC; 1990 300SEL; 1981 VW Rabbit Cabriolet
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Discussion Starter #1
Does anybody KNOW for a FACT whether or not this stuff is or isn't comparable to the G05 / Mercedes-Benz (yellow/orange) coolant for use in the 2.6?
I was hard-pressed and this is all that was available to me at the time of use this past weekend.
I can't seem to get a straight answer from the forums or Google search. BAP is spec'ing it for my '92 201 and my '90 126 which both have the 103 engine.
Advise, thanks!
 

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1992 190E 2.3 Auto
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Does anybody KNOW for a FACT whether or not this stuff is or isn't comparable to the G05 / Mercedes-Benz (yellow/orange) coolant for use in the 2.6?
I was hard-pressed and this is all that was available to me at the time of use this past weekend.
I can't seem to get a straight answer from the forums or Google search. BAP is spec'ing it for my '92 201 and my '90 126 which both have the 103 engine.
Advise, thanks!
I just would go with the Gold Zerex, I've reading bad results with some other coolants...
 

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1991 350SD; 1987 300SDL; 1988 300E w/ original 5-Speed manual
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Different coolant

Do you mean Pentofrost NF?? (CRP/Pentosin also makes Pentofrost A3, which is the same color blue, but is only for HOAT-coolant-using cars such as Honda, Mitsubishi, etc.)

Either way, no, it is not equivalent to G-05, and my dealership specifically advised against mixing with G-05.

It IS, however, identical to Mercedes-Benz' new blue coolant (BQ1030004).
See: http://www.crpindustries.com/pentosin/specsheets/Pentofrost_NF.pdf

Since the old MB gold/yellow coolant is NLA, last fall I flushed my 300E's cooling system with the MB radiator flush and then used Pentosin NF, and so far so good. (It turned out I could've gotten the new blue genuine MB coolant for less online than I paid for Pentofrost, but oh well.)

Bottom line, Pentofrost NF can be used IF the cooling system is flushed, and it can be added to systems with MB blue coolant, and vice versa.
 

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W-1-2-3 Go!
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Do you mean Pentofrost NF?? (CRP/Pentosin also makes Pentofrost A3, which is the same color blue, but is only for HOAT-coolant-using cars such as Honda, Mitsubishi, etc.)

Either way, no, it is not equivalent to G-05, and my dealership specifically advised against mixing with G-05.

It IS, however, identical to Mercedes-Benz' new blue coolant (Q1030002).
See: http://www.crpindustries.com/pentosin/specsheets/Pentofrost_NF.pdf

Since the old MB gold/yellow coolant is NLA, last fall I flushed my 300E's cooling system with the MB radiator flush and then used Pentosin NF, and so far so good. (It turned out I could've gotten the new blue genuine MB coolant for less online than I paid for Pentofrost, but oh well.)

Bottom line, Pentofrost NF can be used IF the cooling system is flushed, and it can be added to systems with MB blue coolant, and vice versa.
So what is the difference between the old MB coolant and the new blue MB coolant? Is there a table showing the differences, especially why the older one is NLA? There must be benefits of using the new stuff.
 

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89 190E 2.6 x2
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As an interesting point, my parents used to use the blue Honda coolant in my 190E. (our Honda mechanic used to do basic maintenance on the car) There were never any overheating problems. When the head was off for the valve job, the cooling passages had no corrosion either.
Of course now the car is running the Zerex G05
 

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1991 350SD; 1987 300SDL; 1988 300E w/ original 5-Speed manual
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Well, Pentofrost A1, A2, A3, and A4 are all classified as HOAT coolants, so not a huge difference -- except, of course, that they are completely unsuitable for Diesels (having no silicates to prevent cavitation and cylinder liner erosion). In a gasoline engine I suppose A2 would be fine. The problem comes from mixing silicate and non-silicate-containing fluids, which causes precipitation, or can even cause the mix to turn into a gel.

As for how the new MB blue coolant is better… they weren't too forthcoming about that, except that it's 'improved' and 'lasts longer'. Who knows? It probably is improved somehow, but I think it's partly to visually differentiate it further from ordinary coolants (i.e., to discourage Jiffy Lube Joe from adding the green junk).
 

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Well, Pentofrost A1, A2, A3, and A4 are all classified as HOAT coolants, so not a huge difference -- except, of course, that they are completely unsuitable for Diesels (having no silicates to prevent cavitation and cylinder liner erosion).
A bit of confusion here. Silicates are anti-corrosion additives for aluminum, they do nothing for acoustic cavitation in steel liners. To protect steel liners, the additive package must contain molybdenum. OAT or HOAT additive package are usually ok for aluminum, but the protection builds relatively slowly. I prefer coolants with at least some silicates in an all-aluminum engine. The yellow G05 includes both silicates and molybdenum, so it's a good choice for a Mercedes Diesel. And you should never run less than a 50/50 mix.

I think the blue stuff eliminates the silicates. The reason this is done is to extend the life of the fill, since silicates will fall out of solution as the coolant picks up impurities. But I like the fast action of silicate additive. To get an idea of the difference, boil up a 50/50 solution of your favorite antifreeze in a shiny pie pan. If it has silicates, a visible film will form in seconds once the mixture gets hot. If you try the same with OAT, you 'll eventually get a coating, but it will take time.
 

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92 190e 2.6 Sportline, 2005 clk55
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And you should never run less than a 50/50 mix.
I am interested to know why you suggest the 50/50 mix. I have a c32 and have been experimenting with the mixture to get temps down. I am currently running a 20/80 mix with distilled water. I do this because water has a better heat transfer coefficient than antifreeze. I do however understand that there are lubricants and anti corrosive additives in coolant. I would guess if there was any issue it would be the amount of those additives?
 

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I am interested to know why you suggest the 50/50 mix. I have a c32 and have been experimenting with the mixture to get temps down. I am currently running a 20/80 mix with distilled water. I do this because water has a better heat transfer coefficient than antifreeze. I do however understand that there are lubricants and anti corrosive additives in coolant. I would guess if there was any issue it would be the amount of those additives?

By concentrating on one aspect of coolant chemistry, you shortchange yourself in other areas. For example, in any situation where cavitation is a possibility, water is at a big disadvantage, because it has a higher surface tension than glycol. That means that it can form big steam bubbles which are powerful enough to damage metal when they pop. The locations where you have a possibility of cavitation damage in any engine are the water pump and the bypass passage, as these are the lowest pressure areas. A Diesel engine with wet liners will have a peculiar tendency to develop cavitation damage due to the ultrasonic effects of the combustion process. And that's not even considering chemical corrosion.

For normal road driving, the most important thing isn't running "cool". It's running at a steady temperature. What I find alarming about many older Mercedes I've seen is that the temperature varies over a very wide range...from 80-110. The design goal should be, should always have been, for the engine to run close to a standard temperature in most situations. The reason is that pressure variations go along with thermal excursions...and varying pressure inside delicate parts like heat exchangers, seals and hoses can make them fail. Many modern engines are designed to "run hot" by traditional standards.

The problem with Mercedes engines in particular is fan control, not coolant chemistry. Every Mercedes I've owned had multiple fans controlled by multiple sensor systems. If everything is working exactly right, they should have pretty close to steady temperatures. If the sensors are anything less than perfect, you have a problem. And I think the sensor specification for some models was done ... can I say it? ...carelessly. This was certainly the case with my '99 E320, which liked to explore the gauge. I've modified the fan controls in my 190DT to bring the aux fans on at low speed when coolant temp hits 92C. I really like the way this works.
 

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1990 190E w201 6cyl. AT, 2007 BMW 335i Coupe 6MT, 2009 Altima SE 6MT, 1997 F250 HD
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By concentrating on one aspect of coolant chemistry, you shortchange yourself in other areas. For example, in any situation where cavitation is a possibility, water is at a big disadvantage, because it has a higher surface tension than glycol. That means that it can form big steam bubbles which are powerful enough to damage metal when they pop. The locations where you have a possibility of cavitation damage in any engine are the water pump and the bypass passage, as these are the lowest pressure areas. A Diesel engine with wet liners will have a peculiar tendency to develop cavitation damage due to the ultrasonic effects of the combustion process. And that's not even considering chemical corrosion.

For normal road driving, the most important thing isn't running "cool". It's running at a steady temperature. What I find alarming about many older Mercedes I've seen is that the temperature varies over a very wide range...from 80-110. The design goal should be, should always have been, for the engine to run close to a standard temperature in most situations. The reason is that pressure variations go along with thermal excursions...and varying pressure inside delicate parts like heat exchangers, seals and hoses can make them fail. Many modern engines are designed to "run hot" by traditional standards.

The problem with Mercedes engines in particular is fan control, not coolant chemistry. Every Mercedes I've owned had multiple fans controlled by multiple sensor systems. If everything is working exactly right, they should have pretty close to steady temperatures. If the sensors are anything less than perfect, you have a problem. And I think the sensor specification for some models was done ... can I say it? ...carelessly. This was certainly the case with my '99 E320, which liked to explore the gauge. I've modified the fan controls in my 190DT to bring the aux fans on at low speed when coolant temp hits 92C. I really like the way this works.
Not only are they designed to "run hot", the fans on most cars don't activate until at least 235F. Of course, when the car is moving fans are not needed unless in stop and go or continuous very slow speed driving.

It is my experience from actually graphing hundreds of cars' data streams while driving, that temperatures usually run in a very narrow band as long as the car is moving. Most cars' target temperature is 195-198F and they run remarkably close to that.

A very significant thing to keep in mind is that we are all reading coolant (not engine) temperature. For good reasons the oil temperature tends to run about 40F higher than coolant temperature, and oil in many engines also has an important function as a 'coolant'.

Lastly, when we read coolant temperature we generally are reading the average temperature in an isolated area. Inches away, on the other side of a closed thermostat, the temperature can be radically different. Once the stat opens and the engine runs for a while, the engine temperature evens out, but not completely. The lower block is a heck of a lot cooler than the cylinder head. But mix the lower block temp (via coolant) with cyl head temp and you get your temperature gauge reading. My point is that as varied as you say you see your temperatures, in reality they vary far more than you know!
 

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I went to get something from my local dealership, and I asked about the new blue coolant. The parts guy said "Yeah you can mix the new and the old." I didn't believe him. I asked him why they changed the color if the two were ok to mix. Why differentiate the two with vastly different colors. There is no mixing up the piss yellow G-05 and the blue coolant. He couldn't answer. I assumed the chemistry had been changed and they aren't mixable.

The old Mercedes Benz yellow coolant is EXACTLY, 100% THE SAME as Zerex G-05 coolant available at Napa. It is an excellent coolant and at $16 a concentrated gallon I don't think it's THAT much of a pain to run the proper coolant that MB spec'd for the engine. The new blue was made with our older cars out of sight and out of mind.

As long as we're talking about cooling system mods...

I replaced my radiator, hoses, expansion tank, tank cap, sensors, and thermostat. The thermostat is actually an 80*C model that is for a 190D 2.5 Turbo, lower than the stock thermostat temp. The sensors were custom chosen by me from the swath of models produced in that time frame. The electromagnetic fan is connected to a single pole 100*C switch. The Aux fan high speed is switched on by a 110*C switch. So the 80*C tstat opens sooner than stock and gets coolant flowing more than a stock temp tstat. Then the clutch fan is set to kick on at 100*C so the temp should never raise above that point. If the cooling system is really taxed, the Aux fan should kick on at 110*C abd help get shit under control. It should never get to the red zone 120*C unless something is really wrong.

Here in Tucson, summer is SO HELLISHLY HOT that I have the electromagnetic fan grounded to the intake manifold permanently so it is always on. This keeps the temp perfectly between 80-90*C and I would feel comfortable idling all day like that in 120*F AZ heat.

I run a 50/50 mix. With a proper cap and a proper mix you'll never boil over.

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If you're ever in a position to remove the intake manifold, install a 22mm fan switch in one of the head plugs on the left side of the head, 92 or 95C would be a good choice...I can give you a VW part number if you're interested. Wire this into the fan resistor. This will cause the electric fan to come on at low speed around 95, then to come on at high speed through your 110C switch if it ever gets that hot. And your main fan can be connect up again so it comes on at 100C. Doing this will give you the thermal control you're looking for, without having the fan on 100% of the time. That pump fan sucks up a lot of HP, especially at higher RPMs, and it generally isn't needed at high road speeds.

It's not a good idea to mix coolants, even if the chemistry allows them to intermix safely. If the coolant ever makes it to a recycling center, it can contaminate a whole batch of recycled glycol. Easy enough to replace with the same stuff.
 

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This has me a little freaked out... I got my 2.6 from my mother and it has had ordinary coolant in it since she got it about 5-6 years ago... should I be worried??? I haven't had any overheating problems, but the comments about corrosion scare me... Should I flush it and replace the coolant??? :eek:
 

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This has me a little freaked out... I got my 2.6 from my mother and it has had ordinary coolant in it since she got it about 5-6 years ago... should I be worried??? I haven't had any overheating problems, but the comments about corrosion scare me... Should I flush it and replace the coolant??? :eek:
Can you clarify? It has had regular green coolant in it for 6 years without being flushed EVER? Or it has had green coolant for 6 years, and has been drained and refilled every 2 or 3 years with fresh coolant?

If it has been green and flushed every 2 or 3, you're probably OK but it isn't the best. Not the end of the world, but not the best.

If it's green AND 6 years old, phew, that is a bad situation. I'd flush it ASA-FUCKING-P and fill it with G-05.

The corrosion and head gasket fears are legit. You should be using G-05, but a green coolant fill kept fresh won't cause any major problems.

My method for flushing is as follows:

Pull rad drain plug.
Pull block drain plug.
Remove upper hose.
Use a garden hose to flush water from upper hose down out the block drain.
Reinstall block drain.
Flush some more water out through lower hose.
Flush water through heater input hose down out lower hose.
Flush water backward through heater core.
Hook hoses back up and fill system with distilled water.
Burp the system and go for a drive with just distilled water. Turn heater on full blast.
Park it and let it soak a while as it cools down.

Pull rad drain.
Pull block drain.
Remove heater input and pour distilled water into heater core out block drain.
Pour distilled water into heater input out block drain.
Remove upper hose and pour distilled water down out block drain.
Remove lower hose and pour distilled water down upper hose through lower hose.
Reinstall hoses and block drain.
Refill with distilled water once more and burp.
Go on another short drive up to temp. Heater on full blast.
Park it, and let it cool.

Pull rad drain.
Pull block drain.
Water should be clear and clean.
Reinstall both drains.
Fill in 1/2 system capacity with concentrated Zerex G-05. Top off with distilled water.
Burp it. Go for a drive. Let it cool. Top off with distilled water.

That should be it. That procedure is probably OCD and over the top. It's what I do. You might be ok with one distilled water flush. I like clean clean clean when flushing out wrong coolant to get to the correct coolant. A G-05 flush for fresh G-05 doesn't need to be as intense.



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Way back when my car had 91,000 miles it took a water pump. For some reason I thought Dex Cool was the wave of the future, so I flushed the system and put the orange stuff in. At 228,000 I did the head gasket and decided not to shock the system any further and refilled again with Dex Cool. This summer will be 3 years since the head gasket, so I'll do a drain and refill along with a new cap.
I'm not recomending anyone to switch to Dex Cool, but it didn't hurt my car. My water pump has 169,000 miles and I'm thinking this summer to replace it as preventitive matenence. I'm at 260,000 now with rust work looming. I'll get an estimate later this spring to see how long I really want to keep this car.
 

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Although I generally think that anti-freeze choice is a boogey man in Benz forums, I still wouldn't use Dexcool. Just too much controversy. But I see no problem with green antifreeze in a gas car, as long as it's flushed first and changed on the manufacturer's schedule. On diesels, a fleet coolant works fine. G05 is good stuff, but if you can't find it, do what you have to do.
 
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