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Discussion Starter · #1 ·

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What are you, a "dream stealer?"

It's unfortunate but true that people fall for these sorts of things all the time.
 

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Very unfortunate. I'm probably nuts to add Techron regularly but claims like theirs (need I add unsubstantiated?) are outright fraud.
 

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E-ZGO 53 HP., 99 E 430 sport, 04 E55 AMG, 2008 Tahoe LTZ Sold Porsche to Brother
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Same claims as Royal Purple, K&N and the like, think they use the same marketing firm.
 

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Seriously? That's funny! I haven't fallen for those either Yacht Master.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Seriously? That's funny! I haven't fallen for those either Yacht Master.
Fallen for? Given my e-mail interchange with royal purple when I was a mod and trying to substantiate something about them, I'm not a fan (let's leave it at that) but I don't get the dis to K&N. They're a legitimate company that has been around a long, long time with solid science and quality engineering behind their products. Most cars have a poorly-designed/engineered intake system, and K&N's products actually do produce a measurable increase in performance, mileage or both, and all while providing better filtration. On the other hand, some cars -- like Mercedes, Porsche, Ferrari, etc. design their intake systems with the same attention to detail as they give their combustion chambers, so there's not a lot of improvement to be had. That said, I still use a K&N filter in my E320 (second thing I bought for it, after cable chains) and on my Ducati. While I did see a minute improvement in mileage on the Benz, I can't say that I might not have seen that with a new, clean paper filter (definite improvement on the Duck, though), but their products are designed (if properly maintained, which is really the key for K&N air filters) to provide better filtration than pleated paper, and particularly so as the filters age and get dirty. Never having to buy another air filter (okay, not lifetime, only for a million miles) is also a nice feature. (And before anyone starts: again, if they are properly maintained, they won't hurt your MAF.)

And that said, no, I wouldn't encourage you to run out and buy a K&N filter for your MBs; as I say, MB's engineers didn't leave much on the table. (That's not why I bought the K&N for the E.) But if you have a regular old domestic product, say a Ford Taurus, or a BJC like an Corolla, then you would in fact see benefits across the board (and even more if you sprung for an induction kit). Of course, why you'd spend $40 for a filter or $250 for an induction kit for a disposable car is a different question, but... :)

Take care and enjoy the ride,
Greg
 

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Greg,

Your comments have been noted and appreciated here as always. The reason I wrote what I did was primarily due to the abundance of negative comments (maybe a mis-perception) I've read on here about the K&N/Mercedes combination. And, no, I have not counted all of these so I could be wrong. I'm also not doubting that K&N is a reputable company. With that said, I might look into what they offer for my Plymouth and Toyota. ;)
 

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E-ZGO 53 HP., 99 E 430 sport, 04 E55 AMG, 2008 Tahoe LTZ Sold Porsche to Brother
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Fallen for? Given my e-mail interchange with royal purple when I was a mod and trying to substantiate something about them, I'm not a fan (let's leave it at that) but I don't get the dis to K&N. They're a legitimate company that has been around a long, long time with solid science and quality engineering behind their products. Most cars have a poorly-designed/engineered intake system, and K&N's products actually do produce a measurable increase in performance, mileage or both, and all while providing better filtration. On the other hand, some cars -- like Mercedes, Porsche, Ferrari, etc. design their intake systems with the same attention to detail as they give their combustion chambers, so there's not a lot of improvement to be had. That said, I still use a K&N filter in my E320 (second thing I bought for it, after cable chains) and on my Ducati. While I did see a minute improvement in mileage on the Benz, I can't say that I might not have seen that with a new, clean paper filter (definite improvement on the Duck, though), but their products are designed (if properly maintained, which is really the key for K&N air filters) to provide better filtration than pleated paper, and particularly so as the filters age and get dirty. Never having to buy another air filter (okay, not lifetime, only for a million miles) is also a nice feature. (And before anyone starts: again, if they are properly maintained, they won't hurt your MAF.)

And that said, no, I wouldn't encourage you to run out and buy a K&N filter for your MBs; as I say, MB's engineers didn't leave much on the table. (That's not why I bought the K&N for the E.) But if you have a regular old domestic product, say a Ford Taurus, or a BJC like an Corolla, then you would in fact see benefits across the board (and even more if you sprung for an induction kit). Of course, why you'd spend $40 for a filter or $250 for an induction kit for a disposable car is a different question, but... :)

Take care and enjoy the ride,
Greg

Let me start by saying that I buy $2000.00 worth of K&N products a year, and have been doing so over the past 35 years. Now I could give all of you the history of K&N but let me just give you the short and sweet of it. They were originally designed for aircraft and boats, both operate in an all most dust free environment so filtering was and is unimportant. At best the K&N is a strainer meant to keep nuts, bolts, tools, rags and many other large items out of the induction system.

Do K&Ns improve performance you ask, heck yes and it should be obvious that a less restrictive element will flow more air, the trade off is very very poor filtration. It is plain and simple you can't have both, good filtration and low restriction in one filter. Now in a passenger car, air filtration is very important they operate in a dirty environment the OEM paper filter will keep your engines induction system clean as the day it was built, on the other hand the K&N will leave a dirty oily residue through out your induction system.

OT
You may question why I buy $2K worth of K&N products a year, It is not because I like them, it is because the best boat "paper/poly filter" conversion is $10,000.00 per engine, so I continue to put up with the nasty old K&Ns. At present I employ Hamilton Standard, Hook Vanes as my primary engine room air filtration then the lowly K&N.

I can not comment on the MAF and K&N issues cause, I will never use an old tech oil bath filter like the K&N on a modern automobile.

BTW for sale used 14 inch cone K&N filters best offer, I have 8.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Do K&Ns improve performance you ask, heck yes and it should be obvious that a less restrictive element will flow more air, the trade off is very very poor filtration. It is plain and simple you can't have both, good filtration and low restriction in one filter. Now in a passenger car, air filtration is very important they operate in a dirty environment the OEM paper filter will keep your engines induction system clean as the day it was built, on the other hand the K&N will leave a dirty oily residue through out your induction system.

OT
You may question why I buy $2K worth of K&N products a year, It is not because I like them, it is because the best boat "paper/poly filter" conversion is $10,000.00 per engine, so I continue to put up with the nasty old K&Ns. At present I employ Hamilton Standard, Hook Vanes as my primary engine room air filtration then the lowly K&N.

I can not comment on the MAF and K&N issues cause, I will never use an old tech oil bath filter like the K&N on a modern automobile.
Geez, and I thought I was a cynic.

I get the point you're trying to make, I've heard it before. The essence of your argument is that I'm being taken in by made-up lab tests demonstrating superior filtration with the same or better airflow.

But you might be right. Historically reputable companies usually go that route to sucker simple-minded, ignorant dolts such as myself.

Really, even I'm not that cynical. It is not "plain and simple" as you assert. While the exact same filter area cannot both increase airflow and reduce filtration size, I can actually understand the logic of additional pleats generating additional filter area and thus affording the same or better airflow efficiency while also reducing the size of particles that can get through. (And no, I'm not talking about the cone filters or induction kits, I'm talking about their OEM replacements that fit the stock airbox.)

That said, if K&N is nuts enough to doctor up lab results, then I'll freely admit I'm nuts enough to believe them. My personal results also belie your premise. The K&N has been on my 210 for nearly 40,000 miles now (including several trips through southern Cal and Arizona which are both rather dusty) and the intake downstream of the filter is clean and dry. The same would be said for my previous vehicles that had K&N filters. The only reasonable conclusion to be drawn is that if one has an oily intake with a K&N filter, the filter is not being properly maintained; how that is K&N's fault is a mystery. That's roughly analogous to blaming Castrol for making crap oil because your engine blew up after an oil change and it turns out you overfilled the crankcase. (And speaking as someone who has worked on cars that had oil bath filters, I can unequivocally state that the K&N filter on my cars and motorcycles have never been of that variety; slapping an incorrect moniker on something doesn't make it so and is a disingenuous tactic.)

Or maybe I'm the only person who's ever had the amazing luck to get the only good filters K&N made. Yeah, that must be it.

With respect to your other point (justifying your purchase of something you apparently disdain as much as Ahmadinejad hates Israel), aside from being irrelevant to an already OT thread ... "me thinks thou doth protest too much." You make your choices, I make mine, same as with everything else. Why you feel the need to take the next step and belittle my choice is another question entirely -- and also irrelevant. Comparing the science and engineering behind K&N's modern air filters to the snake oil mystery of fuel reformulators (and magnetizers for the fuel line, etc.) is also irrelvant and an unappealing argument.

Take care and enjoy the ride,
Greg
 

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I can't recall where I saw the test results I'm about to mention but a lab compared several OEM filters to K&N and the latter had one of the worst filtering characteristics of all. In other words, K&N will allow particles/dust into the system that OEM filters don't.
I get great results with OEM (Mann, Hengst) but never tried K&N to draw my own conclusions...
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 · (Edited)
Desoto magnets? Darn, I don't have a Desoto. Do they have any for Mercedes? (On the other hand, seems like anything would improve the mileage on a Desoto...)

I remember years ago Tom and Ray were discussing this stuff, one of them had gone through the J.C. Whitney catalog to review the "fuel saving" devices and they calculated that if you installed all of them that you could drive 100 miles an hour with clean exhaust ... but you'd have to stop every so often to siphon gas out of your tank (as it would be filling itself as you drove) -- at least based upon all of the claimed savings. :) I wonder if you could sell the excess gas back to the petro companies the way you can sell your excess electricity back to the utilities if you go solar?

Way back to the original post, a friend of mine (who is a domestic SUV fan) said that some of the guys on those forums suggest adding acetone to the gas tanks for some unknown benefit. Acetone is clear...and so is EthosFR...I wonder...
 

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Geez, and I thought I was a cynic.

I get the point you're trying to make, I've heard it before. The essence of your argument is that I'm being taken in by made-up lab tests demonstrating superior filtration with the same or better airflow.

But you might be right. Historically reputable companies usually go that route to sucker simple-minded, ignorant dolts such as myself.

Really, even I'm not that cynical. It is not "plain and simple" as you assert. While the exact same filter area cannot both increase airflow and reduce filtration size, I can actually understand the logic of additional pleats generating additional filter area and thus affording the same or better airflow efficiency while also reducing the size of particles that can get through. (And no, I'm not talking about the cone filters or induction kits, I'm talking about their OEM replacements that fit the stock airbox.)

That said, if K&N is nuts enough to doctor up lab results, then I'll freely admit I'm nuts enough to believe them. My personal results also belie your premise. The K&N has been on my 210 for nearly 40,000 miles now (including several trips through southern Cal and Arizona which are both rather dusty) and the intake downstream of the filter is clean and dry. The same would be said for my previous vehicles that had K&N filters. The only reasonable conclusion to be drawn is that if one has an oily intake with a K&N filter, the filter is not being properly maintained; how that is K&N's fault is a mystery. That's roughly analogous to blaming Castrol for making crap oil because your engine blew up after an oil change and it turns out you overfilled the crankcase. (And speaking as someone who has worked on cars that had oil bath filters, I can unequivocally state that the K&N filter on my cars and motorcycles have never been of that variety; slapping an incorrect moniker on something doesn't make it so and is a disingenuous tactic.)

Or maybe I'm the only person who's ever had the amazing luck to get the only good filters K&N made. Yeah, that must be it.

With respect to your other point (justifying your purchase of something you apparently disdain as much as Ahmadinejad hates Israel), aside from being irrelevant to an already OT thread ... "me thinks thou doth protest too much." You make your choices, I make mine, same as with everything else. Why you feel the need to take the next step and belittle my choice is another question entirely -- and also irrelevant. Comparing the science and engineering behind K&N's modern air filters to the snake oil mystery of fuel reformulators (and magnetizers for the fuel line, etc.) is also irrelvant and an unappealing argument.

Take care and enjoy the ride,
Greg
Greg I am sorry, I did not mean to come across in a disrespectful way.
For you to say that I disdain K&N as much as Ahmadinejad hates Israel is an understatement. But we can still get along. I guess, I doth protest too much.

Greg you are a well recognized member and a foremost Mercedes Benz authority. You take the time to lead and guide many Mercedes owners through the numerous problems they may encounter with their cars. Your advise is highly regarded and has saved so many people the grief of not knowing what to do. You have and still do touch many lives in a positive way.
I personally hold you in high regard and value any products you would endorse (well almost Kany). Your celebrity status here lends huge credibility to any brand name you may mention.

I am sure you have seen this,

Technical Articles: Debunking the K&N Myth - Why OEM is Better
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Greg I am sorry, I did not mean to come across in a disrespectful way.
For you to say that I disdain K&N as much as Ahmadinejad hates Israel is an understatement. But we can still get along. I guess, I doth protest too much.

Greg you are a well recognized member and a foremost Mercedes Benz authority. You take the time to lead and guide many Mercedes owners through the numerous problems they may encounter with their cars. Your advise is highly regarded and has saved so many people the grief of not knowing what to do. You have and still do touch many lives in a positive way.
I personally hold you in high regard and value any products you would endorse (well almost Kany). Your celebrity status here lends huge credibility to any brand name you may mention.
Hey, YM. My apologies for coming across a little harsh in my post. Working from backwards up, that particular one I haven't seen but will set aside time to read carefully, I'm certainy not closed-minded about -- well, most things. I appreciate you posting it and if it helps me determine the best filter to have so much the better. On the broader topic of product endorsements, I try to watch that pretty carefully. I don't think I have ever actually recommended K&N, in part because I recognize there is a dispute/controversy as to their air filters; moreover, it's beyond clear that unless you're anal about maintaining the things you can and probably will do damage and it is easy to get that wrong. Moreover, as to endorsements and recommendations generally, as you know my general mantra is that one of the great things about car ownership is that you get to decide how best to maintain it. So unless I have some reason to toss out a particular thing I generally don't, but when I do it's based upon something a bit more demonstrative than my own personal history, which is just anecdotal anyway. (For example, the post I did noting that we're good to use Xerox G-05 antifreeze, which I think is up in one of the stickies, that I "plugged" because of external data/approval.) Conversely, I do recommend shops and suppliers because the personal anecdotal stuff means more in that arena. ;)

Any celebrity status I hold is highly overrated; heck, I got voted off American Idol (and all of the islands) even before I auditioned! Turning serious, though, I don't hold any credentials in the automotive realm and calling me an authority on MB (much less a foremost one) would in my mind be inaccurate. I have a long history of wrenching (at one time the kind term was gear head, anyone remember dual-point distributors?) and my MB knowledge has been acquired by working on a couple of them in addition to my own and then reading up on them and delving into the library (so to speak) after I entered the world of MB ownership -- and of course from other learned forum members. I do my best to try and provide accurate information and advice, but again, I'm not a certified tech or anything like that. Nevetheless, your kind words humble me.

And probably I doth protest too much as well. :D I can think of lots of things we agree on, not the least of which is that these are great cars to own, drive and maintain and that ND Valvoline is not a good choice for our engines. And that Ahmadinejad is a moronic jerk (well, he is a political figure, so...).

Take care and enjoy the ride,
Greg
 

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Hey, YM. My apologies for coming across a little harsh in my post. Working from backwards up, that particular one I haven't seen but will set aside time to read carefully, I'm certainy not closed-minded about -- well, most things. I appreciate you posting it and if it helps me determine the best filter to have so much the better. On the broader topic of product endorsements, I try to watch that pretty carefully. I don't think I have ever actually recommended K&N, in part because I recognize there is a dispute/controversy as to their air filters; moreover, it's beyond clear that unless you're anal about maintaining the things you can and probably will do damage and it is easy to get that wrong. Moreover, as to endorsements and recommendations generally, as you know my general mantra is that one of the great things about car ownership is that you get to decide how best to maintain it. So unless I have some reason to toss out a particular thing I generally don't, but when I do it's based upon something a bit more demonstrative than my own personal history, which is just anecdotal anyway. (For example, the post I did noting that we're good to use Xerox G-05 antifreeze, which I think is up in one of the stickies, that I "plugged" because of external data/approval.) Conversely, I do recommend shops and suppliers because the personal anecdotal stuff means more in that arena. ;)

Any celebrity status I hold is highly overrated; heck, I got voted off American Idol (and all of the islands) even before I auditioned! Turning serious, though, I don't hold any credentials in the automotive realm and calling me an authority on MB (much less a foremost one) would in my mind be inaccurate. I have a long history of wrenching (at one time the kind term was gear head, anyone remember dual-point distributors?) and my MB knowledge has been acquired by working on a couple of them in addition to my own and then reading up on them and delving into the library (so to speak) after I entered the world of MB ownership -- and of course from other learned forum members. I do my best to try and provide accurate information and advice, but again, I'm not a certified tech or anything like that. Nevetheless, your kind words humble me.

And probably I doth protest too much as well. :D I can think of lots of things we agree on, not the least of which is that these are great cars to own, drive and maintain and that ND Valvoline is not a good choice for our engines. And that Ahmadinejad is a moronic jerk (well, he is a political figure, so...).

Take care and enjoy the ride,
Greg
Please don't discount your expertise or the means by which you received it. For me the school of hard knocks (I almost flunked) has paid handsome rewards. I still know how to set up a dual point Mallory on a sun distributor machine, LOL. Any way back to the topic........

The magnets have demonstrated some interesting improvements in a Fixed, 60 KW diesel generator. I have some data if any one is interested.
 

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Discussion Starter · #18 ·
Yacht Master said:
The magnets have demonstrated some interesting improvements in a Fixed, 60 KW diesel generator. I have some data if any one is interested.
Interesting; are you talking about those fuel-line magnets?

Curiously, I did a bit more checking on Ethos and they originally developed the product for diesels. In some of them it did have a significant impact on emissions and economy; apparently much less so on modern gas engines. (I don't know how you reduce emissions on a ULEV benz anyway; my last emission test all they were able to read was CO2, everything else was zero.) The Ethos stuff is predominantly an ester of some variety, one of the things I read was that it was very similar to some of the oil additives that reduce friction. That would explain why they also say to add it to oil, and I suppose that might help "cushion" some of the impact in a diesel injector and combustion chamber...but it would have to be a pretty significant ester to hit diesel at a 128:1 ratio. If it would in fact help clean up some of the commercial diesels I'd be all for it; walking to work yesterday I was nearly asphyxiated, sounded like Gollum/Smeagol for five minutes or so.
 

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Well, I have some interesting news RE: Ethos
Before I spill, has anyone tried it?
 

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ethos claims...

One of their claims is that if you use ethos you can stop putting in premium gas, and still get the cleaner engine and better fuel economy benefits.

Who's going to be the first ginnypig to try this out on their benz....? I have an old Porsche 928, maybe I'll try it out on it one day...
 
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