Mercedes-Benz Forum banner

Status
Not open for further replies.
1 - 20 of 23 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Hello,

anyone able to guess how tough Unimog axles are compared to dana axles, so which dana axle would equalize the mog axle depending on the Mog used.

So for Example the axles used on the Mog 416, the classic 4 ton Mercedes Mog axles.

Are they comparable to a dana super 60 or are the ytougher, like the dana 70 or even 80?

Greetings
 

·
Registered
1973 416 Doka, 1978 416 Doka, 1980 416 Doka..... Help me, I can't stop buying them!!!
Joined
·
2,627 Posts
I would say Dana does not make an axle tough enough to be compared to a UNIMOG!!!:D
 

·
Unimog Moderator
250GD Wolf
Joined
·
13,264 Posts
Didn't KC post a picture of a Dana axle and a 404 axle?

Edit, ah yes, here it is



Below is a stock d60 next to an upgraded 404 shaft. The stock 404 shaft is a little more waisted(tuned) and has forge markings in the non machined areas. IIRC, the 404 minor is the same as the d60 major
 

·
Registered
2015 Rubicon Unlimited (Let the shame be upon me!)
Joined
·
3,823 Posts
I can feel us wandering right into a specious argument comparing two radically different axle design ideas.

Just about any comparison between a unimog axle and a dana at equatable weight ratings is going to show a massive deviation in design language. Simply and in short with all the "work" happening in in the portal assembly, a unimog axle is going to appear to be under built in terms of axle shaft diameter, casing dimensions, ring and pinion gear size etc. The up side is they have a good dead weight to weight carry performance and usually don't fail in a catastrophic way.

As for toughness, tough in metallurgical terms can mean a lot of things. Like all things unimog it will bend and flex before it cracks and shatters. They also tend to be massively overbuilt, like GVW-Max +50%.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,395 Posts
KC knows more than me but there are other factors. 1 being that there are lots of different kind of Dana 60 axles stock and after market. The one he pictured is probably the worst case scenario. Then there are Dana 70s that are bigger in all dimensions which are on old 1 ton Dodges and bigger new Dodges. I'd like to see a photo of a stock 404 axle shaft vs a stock big 60 and also vs the aftermarket of each. Once again KC knows better but the photos I've seen of broken 404 axles involved the portal bolts shearing off I think and loosing the whole hub.

Who makes aftermarket beefy 404 axle parts?
 

Attachments

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter #6
Well that is why i choosed the dana SUPER 60, because it is one of the few dana axles, which does not come in so much diffrent versions!

Take the Dana 60 front axle used in the Ford F-550 for example. This thing should be tougher than a 404 axles, since it has a higher axle rating (7000lbs) and it is designed for the F-550 4x4, which has a gvw of 19500lbs, which is much more than any version of the unimog 404.

But gain: I asked for the 416 NOT the 404, this trucks still has a lower gvw then the ford f-550, but it does not nearly differ as much (7.5t. against 8.8 t.) and of course the unimog is built with more over dimensioning since it is built for tougher offroad abuse, but then again, the F-550 is the basis for vehicles like the oshkosh sand cat, which transports its full 8.8t. gvw even through really rough terrain.

Greetings
 

·
Registered
'88 U-1300L, '70 406, '78 406, '78 416 project, '82 406, '57 404, '65 404, '70 404, '68 Haflinger.
Joined
·
1,849 Posts
Ya can't compare axle to axle unless the hub reduction ratio is considered. Different animals.
 

·
Registered
U1550L/37 Doka, U1700L/38, Merc 1017A
Joined
·
1,563 Posts
Well that is why i choosed the dana SUPER 60, because it is one of the few dana axles, which does not come in so much diffrent versions!

Take the Dana 60 front axle used in the Ford F-550 for example. This thing should be tougher than a 404 axles, since it has a higher axle rating (7000lbs) and it is designed for the F-550 4x4, which has a gvw of 19500lbs, which is much more than any version of the unimog 404.

But gain: I asked for the 416 NOT the 404, this trucks still has a lower gvw then the ford f-550, but it does not nearly differ as much (7.5t. against 8.8 t.) and of course the unimog is built with more over dimensioning since it is built for tougher offroad abuse, but then again, the F-550 is the basis for vehicles like the oshkosh sand cat, which transports its full 8.8t. gvw even through really rough terrain.

Greetings

a good guide would be to multiply the mog numbers by 3 or 4 times and then find the equivalant domestic part.


if you put the parts side by side and compare the engineering, you will see that is not even apples and oranges. this applies even more to the modern mog axles.
 

·
Registered
85' U1300L Holset Turbo VA A/C, 66' Propane 404.1 rock mog, 1975 416 Doka, G500, Volvo C303
Joined
·
5,035 Posts
Unimog axles and domestic axles are very easy to compare as apples to apples. Now a 416 vs an F550 is like apples to walnuts.

In practice the 416 axle is much more durable than uprated (realisticly) 60's or 70's or 80's. But there are most certainly some 60's that have had $10,000 or more thrown at them that are bullet proof.

As for Oshkosh and their sand cat or what ever? The military and it's contractors don't build trucks to bounce while perched on boulders at full throttle with 400hp or with 100hp. Domestic military trucks etc are not really designed to be operated at the extremes the offroad community inflicts on its hardware. That said, unimogs are designed in a realm somewhere between domestic military and the more extreme offroa world.

Anyways, I can tell you that I have bounced my 1300l (same basic axle as 416) pretty hard with a heavy foot on my modded turbo diesel without failure and there is not an affordable 60 that would hold under my 12,000lb mog.

Sorry, busy and typing in my iPhone. Plus I don't really care to endulge bigbud to much as its the same as sae8274 or who ever
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter #13
Hi,

well i agree, that even the sandcat is not desined for the same harsh offroad abuse like the unimog, but it is of course designed for way more abuse than the basic f-550, which is the reason i guess they did in fact upgrade the super 60 in the front and completeley redesign the suspension for the rear axle.

But on the other hand there is the higher gvw, the frame of the f-550 is stronger in size and thickness, the rear axles has a much higher axle rating than the typical 7.5 ton class mog ales and so on.

But for the topic question its quite interesting, that ven a dana 80 would not be equal to a basic 416 axle! But if 10.000$ upgradet d60 or better super 60 could be on the samelevel, this would still be not to bad, since any mog part i way more expensive ....
 

·
Registered
1981 u1300L, 1998 s280
Joined
·
2,113 Posts
But a ford isn't rated to tow 600 tonnes like the torque convertor 416's.

Stop trying to compare, it's really not worth it. I know a guy who broke a JCB axle the other day landing his truck, is a d80 stronger than a JCB axle? No it's not. Doesn't mean it can't be broken though.



What are you planning on doing which needs the ultimate axle which can't be broken or damaged in any way?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
68 Posts
anyone able to guess how tough Unimog axles are compared to dana axles....Are they comparable to a Dana super 60 or are the tougher, like the Dana 70 or even 80?
Maybe a better determinant would be the price and availability of the mentioned choices. The attributes of the reduction axle assemblies are nice, but not a requirement for most applications, so a build design can include budget considerations, giving the Danas the nod.

Rick
 

·
Registered
1988 Mercedes Benz U1300L OM366, fast axles
Joined
·
244 Posts
Hi,

well i agree, that even the sandcat is not desined for the same harsh offroad abuse like the unimog, but it is of course designed for way more abuse than the basic f-550, which is the reason i guess they did in fact upgrade the super 60 in the front and completeley redesign the suspension for the rear axle.

But on the other hand there is the higher gvw, the frame of the f-550 is stronger in size and thickness, the rear axles has a much higher axle rating than the typical 7.5 ton class mog ales and so on.

But for the topic question its quite interesting, that ven a dana 80 would not be equal to a basic 416 axle! But if 10.000$ upgradet d60 or better super 60 could be on the samelevel, this would still be not to bad, since any mog part i way more expensive ....
Your logic just doesn't seem sound to me. I can go pick up a pair of used 416 axles for around 4500$ why would anyone waste 10,000$ on some upgraded upgrade D60's paying 5500$ more just to be on the same level?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter #18
Sorry to digg up this old threat, but recently i came across one of those sweet old Dodge W500 trucks, with a GVW of 20.000lbs and it stood next to a U417 with around 18.000(which i guess got the same axles as the older U416).

From the outside it looked like the Dodge had the stronger rear axles, but the mog had a much bigger piece of metal in the front, is that correct? As far as i know the rating of the old dodge rockwell axles is 7500 in the front (so i guess bigger as the Dana 70?) and an impressive 17.000 in the rear. I do not know the mog axles ratings exactly, but in this weight class they are normally around 8-8500lbs front and rear since they do not vary as much as us-truck axles vary front and rear.

But of course ratings are only one number so even tho the dodge has the higher gvw the mog will probably be able to handle more weight when driving offroad.

Greetings
 

·
Banned
'02 UNIMOG® UGN. until its deleted or passes scrutineering.
Joined
·
1,826 Posts
Simply put............. the ratings are what the Germans allow on their roads, not what breaks the axles, springs, bank book etc etc etc ...........................

North Americans are famous for stealing wheels and tires off vehicles. When was the last time you heard someone call a cop screaming someone stole my rims and tires thru the night ?

That's not to say the Ford or Dodge isn't handy.

Please refer to post # 7. Has anything changed ?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
26 Posts
Discussion Starter #20
North Americans are famous for stealing wheels and tires off vehicles. When was the last time you heard someone call a cop screaming someone stole my rims and tires thru the night ?
I don't get what that has to do with axle ratings?

Well what has changed is the axle comparsion itself on the us part, i guess the rockwell FDS 750 is quite a bit stronger as a standart dana 60.
 
1 - 20 of 23 Posts
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top