A few months ago my wife refused that I sell the 560SEL for $5000 in cash to the postman that was drooling over it every day he walked by it. He was fully aware that it had 300K miles but after a test drive in my 20 year old car you could tell he was not the same man he first jumped in the passenger seat. He stepped out hunching over to hide an obvious hard on that made him give me that offer. Double triple dare any new Benz to have that same effect in the price range our cars sell for now, or any other car!
Are older Mercedes the "Black Sheep" of the Mercedes-Benz World?
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I think a few here can afford a new one but choose not to because it's not a wise investment. Plus they probably don't need to impress anyone. I may not be able to buy a 2009 s550 cash but I could certainly afford to sign on the dotted line and commit to car payments. A huge reason I drive my w126's is because I hate car payments and have figured out it's prudent to buy a well maintained w126 over a new car payment. Plus I've discovered i don't have that drivers remorse that I typically have after 6 months of car payments ... I still enjoy the hell out of driving my free and clear w126's. I have never had a car built to the quality of the 126's before and that's what keeps me interested in these after 4 years of ownership.
That being said, I would love to drive/own a new s550 or s65 but choose to be conservative in my spending and use the money move wisely at this juncture. There's a lot of things I would love to have but say no to. Owing money on "things" is slavery ... and I choose freedom.
OK off my soapbox.[/QUOTE]
Well said, the borrower IS indeed slave to the lender. I share the same sentiment as you on this. I would much rather drive an old paid for car any day of the week! I like having toys, but would not want my toys to have me.
Even though my 126 is my oldest and cheapest car value wise, I still prefer to drive it on a daily basis. It really does drive and feel like a million bucks.
1983 380sec/4.2, '86 300e, '74 BMW 2002, '94 Mustang Cobra (10psi KB), '08 Volvo S60, '10 Volvo C30R
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IMO there are at least three main types of old Mercedes owners:
1. A kid or wannabe looking for a cheap way to look richer (usually not long term)
2. An original owner or close to it (family car etc.) maintaining an heirloom
3. Someone who appreciates the history/looks/engineering of an older Mercedes and is willing to forgo some modern bling/gadgets to continue to enjoy it for what it is
IMO there are at least three main types of new Mercedes owners:
1. A kid or wannabe looking for a way to look richer (usually not long term)
2. A legacy owner or close to it (family has owned only them etc.) maintaining a tradition
3. Someone who appreciates the history/looks/engineering of a Mercedes and finds a current model acceptable and is willing to pony up to enjoy it
These aged cars are not cheap to own or operate long term. Yes you can buy one in good shape and neglect it - it will be cheap to run until the lack of maintenance catches up with you (it will catch up). Then it will cost close to a new car payment or more per month (averaged over time) until it is returned to a proper state.
Where there were stainless steel screws there are now plastic snaps. While this may say nothing to the 3-4 year "owner" this speaks volumes to me. It says that the manufacturer is building a car to have a definite and short lifespan. Not just some of its parts, such as a water pump or a transmission, but the whole unit.
Sadly I don't think any of us here in the w126 forum can come up with a good argument for a fellow who bought a new car we deem as in any way inferior to an older benz. He spent 60k+ for his driveway "trophy", we (original owners excluded) have paid much less for ours.
Call it reverse snobbism, but if he were anything but a #1 (see the above list) he wouldn't be here arguing with us about the quality and safety of our cars, he would understand what a Mercedes is now and was then (that would make him a #3). So maybe we should just be content in knowing we are happy with our choice to drive inferior old cars. I am...
1. A kid or wannabe looking for a cheap way to look richer (usually not long term)
2. An original owner or close to it (family car etc.) maintaining an heirloom
3. Someone who appreciates the history/looks/engineering of an older Mercedes and is willing to forgo some modern bling/gadgets to continue to enjoy it for what it is
IMO there are at least three main types of new Mercedes owners:
1. A kid or wannabe looking for a way to look richer (usually not long term)
2. A legacy owner or close to it (family has owned only them etc.) maintaining a tradition
3. Someone who appreciates the history/looks/engineering of a Mercedes and finds a current model acceptable and is willing to pony up to enjoy it
These aged cars are not cheap to own or operate long term. Yes you can buy one in good shape and neglect it - it will be cheap to run until the lack of maintenance catches up with you (it will catch up). Then it will cost close to a new car payment or more per month (averaged over time) until it is returned to a proper state.
Where there were stainless steel screws there are now plastic snaps. While this may say nothing to the 3-4 year "owner" this speaks volumes to me. It says that the manufacturer is building a car to have a definite and short lifespan. Not just some of its parts, such as a water pump or a transmission, but the whole unit.
Sadly I don't think any of us here in the w126 forum can come up with a good argument for a fellow who bought a new car we deem as in any way inferior to an older benz. He spent 60k+ for his driveway "trophy", we (original owners excluded) have paid much less for ours.
Call it reverse snobbism, but if he were anything but a #1 (see the above list) he wouldn't be here arguing with us about the quality and safety of our cars, he would understand what a Mercedes is now and was then (that would make him a #3). So maybe we should just be content in knowing we are happy with our choice to drive inferior old cars. I am...
my dad always said the best car is a paid for car. That is why he still has has his 1974 450SEL, looks great runs great.
2019 Hyundai Elantra, 2005 Chrysler Town & Country, 1999 GMC Yukon
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One more about the quality difference of new vs. old MB - Recently MB officially admitted that the quality of their cars has dropped and apologised, and promised that MB is going back to the quality level exhibited by past models.
That said, I hope that in 10 yrs the CLS55 will prove to be a quality product, because I want one.
That said, I hope that in 10 yrs the CLS55 will prove to be a quality product, because I want one.
The reason we are all here on this site is purely emotion. When I was in Lauderdale I would pass SL55s only to find some blond bimbo doing 10 under the speed limit. It killed me that I was the real car lover and yet I had the old car because that's all I could afford. Youth is wasted on the young and Mercedes are wasted on the rich. Performance is important but not the most important thing when it comes to our cars, it's how the car makes you feel every time you lay eyes on it. I don't think our cars are black sheep but I do think those people that have to own the newest of everything won't respect you as much, but that's typical of new money. Old money drive w126 and what not.
1987 420 SEL Artic White, 1987 260E (RIP), 1993 190E, 1987 560 SEL Artic White (parts)
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461 Posts
In ten years, you should have completed your SEC/AMG, and not need a CLS55. You will probably have two or three more W126's worry about. LOL
Mine should be done in under a year total.In ten years, you should have completed your SEC/AMG, and not need a CLS55. You will probably have two or three more W126's worry about. LOL
I agree with your classification of older mercedes owners, but not of new mercedes owners.
I think many new MB owners are not at all car enthusiasts, and simply want an excellent combination of safety, style, performance and features. In my opinion, that is where MB has, and always will, excel.
2. If your 126 costs the $900 a month that an S550 goes for over several years, I would be truly embarrassed. Why I wonder, does such a high quality vehicle need THAT much in repairs? Thats about $11,000 a year, or twice the value of a clean 126, every year. Either your figures are incorrect, or the 126 has more issues than I realized.
3. Yes, plastic has replaced metal, and I don't like that either. That said, technology has come quite a ways and plastic can perform as well or better than metal, while being cheaper to produce, easier to assemble, and less prone to rusting. Also keep in mind that even the highest end vehicles today use a considerable amount of plastic. Its a simple shift in technology, not necessarily a decline in quality. If the plastic snaps broke constantly, you'd have a point, but my car just hit the 4 year old mark, and nothing has fallen off, so I'd say the plastic snaps are still doing their job in an acceptable fashion.
4. The important part of this paragraph is the "we deem". You think the newer cars are inferior due to a lack of quality, but aside from the "it used to have metal x, y, or x, which is now plastic), I haven't heard a single reason why the older cars are higher quality. I begin to wonder how some of you define quality in fact, and im truly curious. For instance, the newer 600/65 series cars have leather dashes and door panels, whereas even the top of the line 126 had vinyl. That to me says something of the quality...
I tend to think the W126 is inferior to the massively "dissed" 220. Reasons: The 220 is safer, better performance, more ability to customize the ride from the factory (airmatic settings), a quieter and more comfortable interior, excellent options, etc. I realize those things are expected from 20 years of progress, but since some of you make the direct comparison, I shall do the same.
Also, Im slightly offended that some of you think that new MB's are only useful as a "trophy". If you don't think something like a 221 S600 drives well and performs very well, I struggle to call you a car enthusiast.
5. Apparently I don't understand what MB was then, and what it is now. That said, in the late 70s and early 80s, there was basically no competition in this class. When the Lexus Ls400 came out in 1989, it cleaned MB's clock. So before that happened, MB was the gold standard. Now that other companies have caught up, MB's star doesn't shine as brightly as it did. However, if they still decided to waste money on overengineering things and using metal when plastics can and do work better, they would have gone out of business long ago.
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You can say that again! I've already got mine picked out, assuming it survives until then!
Airmatic??? You got to be kidding!! ABC - there's another winner. Have a cursory browse through the 220, CL and CLS forums if you think these "excellent options" are so great. These are following in the footsteps of the wonderful biodegradeable/disintigrating wiring harnesses of the 90's.
I am friends with several factory trained MB mechanics who told me on more than one occasion that if I bought a new MB make sure I dumped it before the warranty ran out - thats rather telling isn't it?
Seems there are a lot of misconceptions regarding the new MBs.
I've heard the same thing from a veteran German trained MB tech. He basically said after the mid nineties quality went WAY down and was no better than an average car. Bells and whistles and gorgeous styling aside, I regularly hear horror stories of unreliability and electrical nightmares afflicting the newer models.
A friend of mine who is a total car guy and has the opportunity to drive and own the most exotic cars in the world (he supplies cars for studies and also tears them apart) was totally turned off to the brand after his experiences. Honestly I'm not making this up.
Having said that, I still droll over some of the newer models but would only own one with full warranty.
I've heard the same thing from a veteran German trained MB tech. He basically said after the mid nineties quality went WAY down and was no better than an average car. Bells and whistles and gorgeous styling aside, I regularly hear horror stories of unreliability and electrical nightmares afflicting the newer models.
A friend of mine who is a total car guy and has the opportunity to drive and own the most exotic cars in the world (he supplies cars for studies and also tears them apart) was totally turned off to the brand after his experiences. Honestly I'm not making this up.
Having said that, I still droll over some of the newer models but would only own one with full warranty.
yes, airmatic and ABC are absolutely fantastic systems. Parts are not expensive, and later models rarely have problems on Airmatic. ABC is problematic, but the body control and ride quality make up for any shortcomings. Try getting a smooth comfortable ride, and decent handling on a 126 with 19-20" rims. Not happening.
As for perusing the forums, just about every single automotive forum is filled with problems and complaints, just by the nature of what most people use these forums for: problem solving. Most people don't have the time or interest to make a post about every time something DIDN'T break.
You guys replace bushings and wheel bearings, we replace strut tops. What exactly is the difference? Early ignorance on these systems is what caused the hysteria. Nowadays, airmatic problems are hardly a cause for major concern.
Your tech's comments mean absolutely nothing unless you can tell me what techs were saying when the 126 was fairly new. Furthermore, if 126s really need $11k in repair and maintenance every year, I'd much rather own even a 2000 S500 because it will cost a whole lot less to repair/maintain.
quality how? of materials? of design? of assembly?
hard to compare the reliability of electronics when the early models had power seats, mirrors, windows, and maybe heated seats...and thats it, versus voice recognition, comand navigation, digital front and rear climate control, heated, cooled, dyamic massaging seats, distronic cruise control, parktronic keyless go, etc. They are simply not directly comparable. You could argue that MB should ditch these things, but that is what buyers want.
in my opinion, the ones who will look down upon you for driving an older benz, would be the pricks that drive a mercedes just to drive a mercedes, becuase of its name and know nothing of its heritage or the engineering behind it. i would gladly drive a new benz, but ill tell you i wouldnt get rid of my sec for anything. if at all possible, i will take it to the grave with me.
i drive cars i like, not what everyone else likes.
i drive cars i like, not what everyone else likes.
You hear different things from different folks. My Benz tech ran the service dept. at a MB dealership for more than a decade. Started his own shop when new owners pushed him to pad the bills.
I asked him what Benz to buy as a daily driver to go with my 1986 560sl. He didn't hesitate: an '01 or '02 E320. Said if you do the required maintenance they're fairly bullet proof and inexpensive to fix when something does go wrong.
I picked up a silver '01 with 63K about a month ago. Still think it looks better than the new E class. Of course, nothing matches the 560sl when the sun is shining and the road is calling.
I also collect guitars and have a nice collection of premium new and older axes. Without fail the one that stirs the most emotion amongst players is the '68 blonde Telecaster. It looks like it's been through the war but there's some kind of intrinsic feel, a singleness of purpose, a simple integrity that is hard to define.
I asked him what Benz to buy as a daily driver to go with my 1986 560sl. He didn't hesitate: an '01 or '02 E320. Said if you do the required maintenance they're fairly bullet proof and inexpensive to fix when something does go wrong.
I picked up a silver '01 with 63K about a month ago. Still think it looks better than the new E class. Of course, nothing matches the 560sl when the sun is shining and the road is calling.
I also collect guitars and have a nice collection of premium new and older axes. Without fail the one that stirs the most emotion amongst players is the '68 blonde Telecaster. It looks like it's been through the war but there's some kind of intrinsic feel, a singleness of purpose, a simple integrity that is hard to define.
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In 15-20 years, is the average owner going to be able to fix all these systems, with regular simple tools, as we are on our 126's today?
And no, not all buyers "want" those features. I don't, and I certainly don't need them. Have you ever seen a really wrecked 126? They are amazingly safe, even without many airbags. I have two to prove it.
Well I can only tell you what I experienced during our talk/demo. When I first came to the tech's shop for an inspection on my w126 he made a comment about what fine cars these were. I did not solicit this comment. It was made by a man who works on cars on a daily basis and admires fine craftsmanship, over-the-top engineering and excessive use of materials. I also suspect that he enjoyed working on the older cars because they were less complicated to figure out. While my car was on the hoist, he took me to a newer (early to mid 2000's as I recall) MB sedan and expressed how the doors where tinny and hollow in comparison (didn't have the bank vault solidness). He then proceeded to show me the leather and door panels exclaiming how the leather was thinner and of a lesser quality. Then he made the comment that the car was no better than the build quality of an average American car. I didn't necessarily take that as a slam because Detroit has been making better cars contrary to popular belief. But it did point to the fact that there has been a general democratization of quality between marques which is where MB ended up. They were in exclusive territory prior to that.
So first off, I would suggest that yes the quality of materials has been downgraded. I have no doubt the engineering and technological advances have made vast improvements, however due to outsourcing to lesser cost suppliers the engineering was probably not realized as best as it could be due to cost cutting in the manufacturing end ... building to a price point. You have to remember the cost cutting mantras prevalant during the late 90's in the automotive industry. Suppliers were constantly and relentlessly being squeezed to produce parts for less and less.. especially here in Detroit. I believe this philosophy affected nearly every US manufacturer and since Diamler was part of Chrysler it felt the effects of this new direction. I think initially the cost cutting efficiencies probably had the MB accountants drooling when the merger became reality, but it eventually became a curse for MB. Something had to give.
Unquestionably research costs money so corners probably had to be cut in other areas that most people wouldn't notice. I get that part.
I think to a large degree the merger with Chrysler was probably a disaster for both companies whereas the business model became less niche focused and marketed to a larger audience.
It a different world out there today than it was 20 years ago and in some cases not all for the better.
That 68 Tele would sound mighty fine through my black-faced 68 twin... eh?
Moving on..
I work in automotive electronics for 40 hours a week. I love and understand electronics. All of the multiplexing in newer vehicles does not bother me, I know how to deal with it, get around it, work on it, etc. Ever had to convert a newer MB for a handicapped customer? I have. That's what a division of my company does. Even sprinters have multiplexed climate controls these days!
Everything is multiplexed and there are multiple modules that communicate together on a common, little intranet in the car called a CAN bus. CAN= Controller Area Network. Many of the multiplexed electronics are not just digital on/off signals either- they use a lot of resistors. 8, 10, or more switches linked together with 2 wires out... with each switch introducing a different resistance value. It communicates that value to a module which communicates a command to another module, and then something happens.
One pinched wire and a module goes off line. Now you've suddenly lost something major. None of the windows will open. The instrument panel is dead. The radio won't work. It wont start. Nothing works. Because of one failed wire. Take that to your corner garage for diagnostics...
Is it simple to work on? Yes, with the correct tools. Are these vehicles going to last 20-30 years? Nope. I don't care if Hyundai built it or MB. They are going to depreciate faster and every repair is going to cost more than it's worth in 20 years. They are going to deteriorate with time, and every year and pothole that goes by is going to cause further deterioration, even if you can keep it clean and new looking.
It's already happening.
Buy a 1996 MB with 100,000 miles. Say an E-320. It's a fine car. Until the check engine light comes on. Then go trade it in fast. Here in NY State- It might cost you $1500 to get it through inspection. That's pretty much a worst case scenario, but it's the reality. But it's the reality for any 1996 Buick, also.
My mother has a 2001 Pontiac Bonneville. That was the first year they fully multiplexed the H chassis at GM. The car has been extremely reliable. It has around 150K miles, and it's 8 years old. All of the electrical gremlins are starting now. Multiple idiot lights, all kinds of things related just to failing electrical connections. This problem is really aggravated by north-east salt.
Sorry Oliver, but you're dead wrong. That's not an opinion of mine, it's just a fact. I'm telling you this as a paid technician who works in the field and can easily afford to buy your car. (Not that it's anyone's business).
You own a good car. And it should remain faithful to you for a few more years. If you buy cars for safety, styling, or whatever, and you have the money to spend on it, go for it. Nobody is telling you not to. Continue to buy them every few years if you like them, and you'll always think you have a reliable car. What you cannot do is speak for it's long term reliability, which will be directly proportionate to it's quality. Your 2005 model is not old enough yet.
It used to be when you went to the junkyard, you would come across many damaged, smashed, wrecked, or rotted out old cars that were 15-20 years old. Now when you go you are seeing more and more 8-10 year old cars that look like very serviceable. They just aren't worth it to people.
So Oliver will respond to this with 'give me proof about MB.' There's no need. Multiplexed electronics and OBD-II are becoming industry standard. The body electronics will probably always be different (read: more complicated) among various marques, but overall, this is the direction the industry is headed in, which is unfortunate.
I'm not saying that technology has not done some amazing things for cars. Some of the electronic handling and stability systems blow my mind. They are amazing machines. But personally, I'd rather drive a car than let it drive itself. Even though I've never personally seen a failure, drive by wire is just seems like a bad idea. Period. When the wire breaks, you're pretty much screwed. Electronic throttle motors can fail.. etc.
The old MB's will prove their worth in another 10 years when many of them are STILL going. I'll drive them as long as I can find them and pile miles on them every day. Perhaps 10 years from now I'll be able to figure out how to get the seats from a 2000+ model year S-class into my beat up, old, run down (but still running) welfare 1980's model Mercedes.
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