[ianrandom]

When i drive my 2cv around, its the done thing to wave or even stop and chat to other 2cv's, as they're not that common. I was surprised to find i get the nod from new-ish mercedes drivers too mostly, and if driving in busy London i have been let in front by smiling newer Mercedes drivers. A couple of Mercedes drivers have stopped & talked to me when i've been polishing it.

There are always those few who are arrogant wotsits, but they dont seem nearly as common as i expected. The worst one has been in a nice 450SL of all things, he was a proper twit, and dangerous with it. I felt sorry for the car!
BMW drivers always seem to try and make life difficult, as do sporty hatchback drivers.

I think the 126 (& 116) are old enough and classy enough to be seperate from the rest. But i wouldnt mind anyway cos i LOVE it and cant find anything even slightly attractive about the newer cars, i admire the tech but i think they're horrible to look at (apart from the CLS!)

 

[Quadcammer]

Let a new car hit one of our true classics, and they will fold like an accordian while we may just need some paint touch-up!

You seem to indicate that as being positive. That is part of the reason the new cars are safer. In the 116/126, you are what is absorbing the energy, where as in the newer models, the car absorbs the energy, hence its "foldling like an accordian".

Thats the only thing that bothers me about the old car owners.

They think their quality is second to none (yet can never explain why, except for "it feels high quality"), they think that its safer (its not, crumple zones are there for a reason), and they think that nothing matches its "classiness".

I think we all justify our purchases to ourselves, but it can come off a bit like sour grapes.

 

[Firewater]

You seem to indicate that as being positive. That is part of the reason the new cars are safer. In the 116/126, you are what is absorbing the energy, where as in the newer models, the car absorbs the energy, hence its "foldling like an accordian".

Thats the only thing that bothers me about the old car owners.

They think their quality is second to none (yet can never explain why, except for "it feels high quality"), they think that its safer (its not, crumple zones are there for a reason), and they think that nothing matches its "classiness".

I think we all justify our purchases to ourselves, but it can come off a bit like sour grapes.

I agree OliverK. Crumple zones are there for a reason and I can attest to the necessity of them from my recent accident. The hood, the radiator core support were the ones that took the damage and brilliantly crumpled at safe locations to prevent injury to the driver (me). Had the hood not been engineered in the manner that it was to absorb the energy of the impact, that hood would have come crashing through the window and resulting in a very likely death...

Let's not contradict ourselves when we say that Mercedes-Benz stands for quality and engineering marvel and in the same breath saying the older cars lack the features of the newer cars as far as safety crumple zones. Instead, I would argue that our cars, the W126's are indeed engineering marvels... for THEIR ERA. With advances in manufacturing processes and engineering capabilities, more crumple zones are able to be incorporated into the cars of today without compromising their structural integrity outside of impacts. Furthermore, with the "mass produced" parts that machinists allegedly "don't put their heart and soul into anymore" are less expensive and easily replaced in impact collisions. While an 1988 560 SEL compared with a 2009 S550 in lets say a 45MPH collision might look less damaged, it's the S550 that will more likely be not only be repaired much more efficiently, but also at a lower cost and higher "return to normalcy" rate.

 

[Quadcammer]

very eloquently put. I agree that for their time, they represented the pinnacle of engineering, as the new S-class does today. Evolution is simply unavoidable.

 

[slandsecdriver]

In the 116/126, you are what is absorbing the energy, where as in the newer models, the car absorbs the energy, hence its "foldling like an accordian".

They think their quality is second to none (yet can never explain why, except for "it feels high quality"), they think that its safer (its not, crumple zones are there for a reason), and they think that nothing matches its "classiness".

I think we all justify our purchases to ourselves, but it can come off a bit like sour grapes.

Not quite. MB pioneered crumple zones back in the 50's and all models since have had them, including the 116 and 126, so the "you are what is absorbing the energy" is totally false. In fact all cars, even the lowly Korean makes, have crumple zones now. You might also be interested to know that the 126 was the first MB equipped with airbags. Take a look at the picture of Picklesam's recently totaled 560 SEC and you will see graphic evidence of crumple zones in a W126. In addition, the gauge and quality of the German made steel 20-30 years ago was superior to the cheap Asian steel used now.

It is also a well known fact (at least in MB enthusiast circles) that MB stopped overengineering their cars in the 90's in order to compete with the Japanese move upmarket (Infinity & Lexus), as well as MB's precipitous drop in quality as measured by JD Power during the Daimler/Chrysler years, so there exists empirical, objective proof of MB's slide in quality in recent years.

"Classiness" is subjective, but the boring sameness (yes I know there are exceptions) of today's cars argues against applying the "classy" label to them. New cars are today's drivers and tomorrow's beaters.

As to "sour grapes", most folks here are more than capable of buying a new MB or anything else within reason, they just choose not to for the aforementioned reasons.

 

[Quadcammer]

Not quite. MB pioneered crumple zones back in the 50's and all models since have had them, including the 116 and 126, so the "you are what is absorbing the energy" is totally false. In fact all cars, even the lowly Korean makes, have crumple zones now. You might also be interested to know that the 126 was the first MB equipped with airbags. Take a look at the picture of Picklesam's recently totaled 560 SEC and you will see graphic evidence of crumple zones in a W126. In addition, the gauge and quality of the German made steel 20-30 years ago was superior to the cheap Asian steel used now.

It is also a well known fact (at least in MB enthusiast circles) that MB stopped overengineering their cars in the 90's in order to compete with the Japanese move upmarket (Infinity & Lexus), as well as MB's precipitous drop in quality as measured by JD Power during the Daimler/Chrysler years, so there exists empirical, objective proof of MB's slide in quality in recent years.

"Classiness" is subjective, but the boring sameness (yes I know there are exceptions) of today's cars argues against applying the "classy" label to them. New cars are today's drivers and tomorrow's beaters.

As to "sour grapes", most folks here are more than capable of buying a new MB or anything else within reason, they just choose not to for the aforementioned reasons.

Im aware of the crumple zones, but if you see what I originally quoted, it might help you to understand my statements more clearly.

Quite frankly, a single ds airbag from 198X vs head, knee, side etc airbags and more advanced crumple zones? Im not saying that the 116 or 126 are inherently unsafe, but the newer models are safer. period.

Asian steel? Have any proof of this or is this simply conjecture?

Not one person can prove to me that this "overengineering" that you speak of results in any measurably better level of quality or reliability. I also think this recent quality deficiency that you mention is more the result of others improving, and MB using some business sense. I don't believe that 90s MBs are any more reliable than the new stuff, and the 140 provides plenty of evidence. Furthermore, a 126 has pretty limited features and options, which results in less things to break. When you add 500 features, the likelihood that something breaks increases.

I'm not quite sure I understand the "boring sameness" that you are referring to. Maybe you could elaborate... Not to be rude, but many 126s are today's beaters...


I sort of doubt that many 126 owners (not just the ones on this site, but overall) are able to go out and purchase a 221 S550, but I could be wrong. Also, that seems to be the standard argument. I really doubt that many people would take a 126 500sel over a 2009 S65.

 

[cascade]

Snobs are trying to impress so that they can feel superior, and will drive whatever they feel impresses the most.

"For me, cars are just a way of getting from here to there, or for maybe picking up a few bucks somewhere. I don't use cars to impress anyone.

$hit, if I wanted to IMPRESS someone, I'd ram the barrel of a long nose .44 down their throat, and ear back the hammer."




~~criminal in an Elmore Leonard novel, talking about the 200 cars, he'd had in his life, all stolen, except for a '57 CHevy and a TR3 he had bought.

 

[SSL]

Im aware of the crumple zones, but if you see what I originally quoted, it might help you to understand my statements more clearly.

Quite frankly, a single ds airbag from 198X vs head, knee, side etc airbags and more advanced crumple zones? Im not saying that the 116 or 126 are inherently unsafe, but the newer models are safer. period.

Asian steel? Have any proof of this or is this simply conjecture?

Not one person can prove to me that this "overengineering" that you speak of results in any measurably better level of quality or reliability. I also think this recent quality deficiency that you mention is more the result of others improving, and MB using some business sense. I don't believe that 90s MBs are any more reliable than the new stuff, and the 140 provides plenty of evidence. Furthermore, a 126 has pretty limited features and options, which results in less things to break. When you add 500 features, the likelihood that something breaks increases.

I'm not quite sure I understand the "boring sameness" that you are referring to. Maybe you could elaborate... Not to be rude, but many 126s are today's beaters...


I sort of doubt that many 126 owners (not just the ones on this site, but overall) are able to go out and purchase a 221 S550, but I could be wrong. Also, that seems to be the standard argument. I really doubt that many people would take a 126 500sel over a 2009 S65.

OliverK,

I appreciate all your points which are all fairly made However Mercedes took the decision in the early 90s to cut back on quality and expand the range of cars they produced. The management board themselves recognized that the cars were over-engineered and decided to abandon the " best or nothing" approach.

This didn`t mean that they stop making great cars it means they stopped using cadmium plated brackets to hold wiring and replaced them with plastic ties. They stopped using chome inserts at the top of door frames using counter-sunk aluminium screws. They reduced the weight and heft of steel used and the quality of glass. They went down cost cutting avenues.

If you sit in a W113 SL and compare it with a R230 the newer car is obviously light years on from the Pagoda but it will not match the thing for sheer class and quality.

Ask any mechanic who has worked on the pre and post 95 models and they will tell you that the olders cars are built to a different standard.

Daimler Benz died in the early 90s and was replaced by a company less obsessed with substance and more concerned with style and marketing.

This is reflected in the way they made their cars.

 

[Quadcammer]

You bring up some interesting points, but from the examples you provide, I'm simply not seeing the shocking disconnect that is often reported. I suppose Im not one to worry about wire supports and countersunk screws, but it seems to be that MB's level of interior/exterior finishing is still exemplary.

Also, some things are simply engineering for engineering's sake. Why make a cadmium plated bracket when a simple plastic wire tie works just as well, yet costs less, weighs less, and takes up less space?

Although MB may have changed, the world has also changed, and MB has had to change with it. I don't know how many people would want a 4700lb E-class which costs $95k and gets 15mpg. (just an example)

 

[Firewater]

You bring up some interesting points, but from the examples you provide, I'm simply not seeing the shocking disconnect that is often reported. I suppose Im not one to worry about wire supports and countersunk screws, but it seems to be that MB's level of interior/exterior finishing is still exemplary.

Also, some things are simply engineering for engineering's sake. Why make a cadmium plated bracket when a simple plastic wire tie works just as well, yet costs less, weighs less, and takes up less space?

Although MB may have changed, the world has also changed, and MB has had to change with it. I don't know how many people would want a 4700lb E-class which costs $95k and gets 15mpg. (just an example)

I agree that over engineering can in some respects be unnecessary. Downgrading or even elimination of a engineered component due to cost savings measures is referred to as LEAN manufacturing. There is a whole following, methodology regarding LEAN. It's a great methodology when applied properly. The difficulty of implementing LEAN is striking the right balance between necessary components and unecessary waste. The problem lies where LEAN manufacturing principles take a process or product and reduce it beyond it's functioning means. That is, when elimination of a bracket to save weight and money occurs, that decision might significantly impact the integrity of the process or the product. While a Cadmium Wiring bracket might seem a little over the top in a world where plastics have been advanced to meet or exceed the material properties of such a previously designed bracket, it may be necessary in a world of corrosion, compound forces, and fatigue. What some people, mechanics, engineers, consumers, might not understand is why the change? However, when the bracket itself is eliminated and these wires find themselves chewed up in the Fan Clutch, well, that's poor engineering and quality is sacrificed to the bottom line.

There was without a doubt a problem with Mercedes Quality during the early 00's. The "merger" with Chrysler was a time period where owners were reporting their Mercedes catching fire. in their garage. while it was not on. Certainly a quality issue there. However, the Mercedes-Benz of today, I believe, has moved past this low point and is well on it's way to becoming the pinnacle of luxury and performance automobiles again. For a reference to this statement, take a look at the new Mazda Crossover SUV and the new GLK class. Mazda, what's with the faux-crocodile pinstripe running down the driver's seat? Tacky, and a bad attempt at mimicking the top dog. Hyundais? Give me a break.

 

[justinwrock]

No. Not at all. Infact, if you talk to an MB owner (a real one, not the one that buys it because it was the most expensive, because of the snob factor, or someone who leases it) they will tell you that they miss their older car, and they wish they never took the leap to the newer ones.


On more than one occasion, I have been putting gas into my TE when a fairly new (1-2 years old at the most) Mercedes pulls up. Never fails that they will compliment my car, and tell me how they had one like it, and that they wished they never had sold it.

I think Dimmuburger and Cascade have had the same thing happen, maybe more of you. I talked to someone who drove a (at the time) new CL500, and they told me how they missed their 560SEC.


In terms of Mercedes, the new ones have the same soul that the old ones do. They look great too! Quality is definitely not as good as the old ones, nor do they have the feel or the class of an older one. In 2007, I drove an old Pagoda and a new SL600. The 600 blew away the Pagoda in performance, handling, comfort, and safety. The Pagoda blew away the SL600 in terms of style, class, quality, feel, and reward. I drove the SL600 and felt very serious the whole time I was driving it. When I was behind of the Pagoda, I had a huge smile, and was laughing my ass off almost the whole time. So much more of a rewarding car to drive.

Yeah, the Pagoda didnt have heated or air conditioned seats, and it didnt shift lightening fast, it didnt have the awesome power of the V12, nor did it handle like the 600. It did have amazing styling, finesse, class, everything I care about. Oh, the noise from the engine was better too. Not to mention the Pagoda turned almost everyones head.

 

[justinwrock]

I will give $5 to anyone who can guess what car the owner of the local MB dealer drives.

 

[Firewater]

I wonder if this same discussion was had 20 - 30 years ago when the w126s first arrived on the market

 

[Firewater]

I will give $5 to anyone who can guess what car the owner of the local MB dealer drives.

A Chevy.


pm me for paypal address.

 

[MBLuv]

Another point I wanted to in comparison to other manufacturers cars:

How many have a 'wunderbar' facility like the Mercedes Classic Center in the US and Germany where owners STILL send cars that are 20, 30, 40, or more years old to be lovingly restored and improved upon in order to preserve that special something that the new cars just don't have.

Maybach cannot even overshadow the original 600 Grosser Mercedes - now that was understated class and substance never achieved before or since!

The new 6.3 AMG SL MIGHT come close to bringing back those loyal feelings and 'seat of the pants' love affair again. AMG has just one (1) mechanical technician assemble a complete engine, and only when it passes testing is he allowed to affix his persoanl signature plate to the engine. THAT is how they used to build entire cars! Love those guys!

I can't count how many people I've known over the years that have walked away from severe accidents in the W126 and W116, that would have perished in any lesser cars.

I shall now retire from my soapbox for today and allow other to rant forth! LOL

Cheers All,

Ron

 

[cascade]

I will give $5 to anyone who can guess what car the owner of the local MB dealer drives.

A demonstrator.


Now pay up when I meet you tonight in Stockton.


I decided to leave a day earlier for Los Angeles and will be out of here and on the road, within about in an hour.

 

[mclare]

AMG has just one (1) mechanical technician assemble a complete engine, and only when it passes testing is he allowed to affix his persoanl signature plate to the engine. THAT is how they used to build entire cars! Love those guys!

Not true...

There were very few manufacturers that would do that. Aufrecht and Melcher were building race cars and catering to the ultra rich. That is why they could (and can still) afford to have one guy do it all. They could afford to pay him.

Same with the Rolls and Jag Marques. Rolls Royce cars were famously made entirely by hand. And customers were (and still are ) charged accordingly. Even Ferrari has a "Assembly Line". It goes very slowly, but moves from station to station. And building to building.

Even if you were to get you hands on a real AMG warehouse of parts (And there is only one place on earth that exists) it would cost you a Kings ransom to get a true AMG 6.0 L built and installed.

Mass production is how all cars are built, save for those few marques mentioned.

 

[graftdesign]

Personally I think there's a lot of panache in pulling up to a valet with a 20+ year old, restored classic Benz. I think deep down inside the "newer" snobby owners have respect for these gems, although they might not admit it. You can't deny the beauty. I look at some of the finer examples on this forum and just drool. How could someone look down on these beauties and not appreciate them for what they are?

You've got to admit, it's pretty cool driving a car that few could afford in its day and few can maintain to the level these cars require. True, style never gets old IMO.

 

[justinwrock]

A demonstrator.

Nope.

 

[graftdesign]

[QUOTE
I sort of doubt that many 126 owners (not just the ones on this site, but overall) are able to go out and purchase a 221 S550, but I could be wrong. Also, that seems to be the standard argument. I really doubt that many people would take a 126 500sel over a 2009 S65.[/QUOTE]

I think a few here can afford a new one but choose not to because it's not a wise investment. Plus they probably don't need to impress anyone. I may not be able to buy a 2009 s550 cash but I could certainly afford to sign on the dotted line and commit to car payments. A huge reason I drive my w126's is because I hate car payments and have figured out it's prudent to buy a well maintained w126 over a new car payment. Plus I've discovered i don't have that drivers remorse that I typically have after 6 months of car payments ... I still enjoy the hell out of driving my free and clear w126's. I have never had a car built to the quality of the 126's before and that's what keeps me interested in these after 4 years of ownership.

That being said, I would love to drive/own a new s550 or s65 but choose to be conservative in my spending and use the money move wisely at this juncture. There's a lot of things I would love to have but say no to. Owing money on "things" is slavery ... and I choose freedom.

OK off my soapbox.